Using 'fashionable' stallions?

[_jetset_]

I was just wondering whether this applied to anyone.

I am just setting up a breeding programme and have been lucky enough to buy some really lovely broodmares who I am thrilled to pieces with. I have bred in the past (I have a home bred rising 5 year old and a home bred rising 2 year old) but these have always been to keep as opposed with the aim of being put on the open market.

I have been looking into foals that are for sale for quite some time, mostly because I was looking for a colt for myself and have noticed that there is always a fashionable stallion whose foals seem to reach a consistently higher price.

I was wondering, as breeders who aim to sell their foals rather than those who breed to produce a horse for themselves, do you become swayed towards using the more fashionable stallions to help sell your stock?

 

[BigRed]

I think you are very brave to be breeding horses in this current financial climate. I see plenty of adverts for foals in the £5k+ price range that are not selling. They are bred from fashionable stallions. I think these days you need to be breeding from mares with a seriously good bloodline/competition record and using top, quality stallions in order to stand a chance of making a profit.

 

[_jetset_]

I completely agree... I am very fortunate to have bought mares who are just that!

Plus I also have another graded KWPN mare too who I compete that I am looking to use via embryo transfer next year. I am also very lucky to have my own premises and plan on breeding horses that I would like to own myself so if they do not sell, they will stay until they are at least 3 years and be backed before any further decisions are made.

 

[AmyMay]

Some very interesting responses to a question posed by a poster in Breeding Plans 2012 on why people are breeding in this climate, especially about the stallions that are being used.

 

[MillionDollar]

I think the best stud to look at is the Woodlander stud. Lynne Crowden has done an amazing job and is breeding fantastic competition horses. She doesn't always use fashionable sires at all, but she studies bloodlines and looks at the conformation and attributes of the mare and stallion.

Good Luck, it can be very tough at times, even with your own land. I for one have decided not to breed again unless I have something very special, until the market picks up as it is pretty dead atm. Saw some amazingly bred foals for sale last year for as little as £3k!!!!

 

[_jetset_]

I think Lynne is wonderful and was incredibly helpful when I bred from a woodlander mare a few years ago. One of my mares is actually in foal to Rockstar at the moment (I bought her already in foal) so I am really looking forwards to seeing what he is like in May!

I am only doing this on a smallish scale with 2-4 broodmares as like I say, I have the facilities to keep whatever I breed until the are under saddle and can show case them a little better. I love breeding, it is a real passion of mine and something I have only dabbled in previously, but I am now lucky enough to be able to do it in a more professional manner.

I would personally rather keep my foalies until they are under saddle as then I feel I have a better idea of what I am producing and who they would be most suitable for... Plus I then have the enjoyment of backing my own babies which I think is the most satisfying feeling in the world

 

[Kaylum]

Foals reaching a consistently high price? But are they selling. I was involved in the ID breeding market and we didnt even have to advertise the youngstock never mind the 3 year old backed ones.

Is it worth it? What are you going to make on it? I wouldnt do it at the mo. Unless you can chuck them out in a field all year round and they arent costing you a lot to keep.

 

[Lark]

In Ireland this year the one banker stallion for foals was Arko III.
If I remember correctly there were 3 that sold through the sales and all made 7k plus while one topped the foal sales for the year at 8k+
However if the same foals were to have sold in 2007/2008 they would have probably made around the 20k mark.

I would say that the reality right now is if you plan to sell foals through the sales they need to be commercial and to be commercial they need to be fashionable.

That premise is turned on its head completely then when looking at the older performance horse sales for producers. The Go For Gold Sale (Eventing) top lot @ €47k was by an unapproved Stallion Murphys Irish Diamond.

 

[Polotash]

I'd say if you have the facilities and the desire to keep them until they are 3 or 4 you have a goer - people pay good money when they can see their new superstar under saddle - in terms of breeding foals and selling them at a profit at weaning I think it's unlikely.. Even with your own land they'll be costing you 3k ish to get on the ground surely, unless you are doing your own vet work?

 

[millitiger]

I think if you are erring towards keeping them until 3 and under saddle you may need to approach a little differently imo.

Dressage trends and fashions seem to change much more quickly than SJ or eventing lines and if you are making a decision for something you aren't going to sell for 4 years, you need to try and second guess and get ahead of the fashion if that makes sense?

I worked for Serena Pincus when I was younger and she was like an encyclopedia of bloodlines- she was also very good at keeping ahead of trends and used stallions like Weltmeyer, Rhodiamant and Agentinus before they were 'super fashionable' so when they came on trend she already had youngsters ready to sell when everyone else was rushing to put their mares in foal!

She really was amazing with bloodlines and not just dressage horses or warmbloods- I remember telling her my horse's breeding and she knew instantly about an obscure tb stallion who had stood in mid-Wales in the 1970's!

Or if you have a suitably large budget you can go for the real big guns who won't have faded in 3-4 years but obviously they cost a lot more than trying to guess which 3yro stallion is going to be the next best thing!

 

[Spring Feather]

I was wondering, as breeders who aim to sell their foals rather than those who breed to produce a horse for themselves, do you become swayed towards using the more fashionable stallions to help sell your stock?

I am not a very good breeder as I have this terrible tendency to breed my mares to stallions that I think will suit them and breeding foals that I think I will like Sometimes I will use a new hot to trot stallion who seems to be making a buzz and sometimes I'll use an old classic stallion. I'm not set in any ways and at times I breed for the fun of it and seeing what the match will produce. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules with breeding so long as what you produce is pleasing and correct. There will always be the buyers who like offspring from the new fashionable stallions and then on the flip side there's the buyers who like the old, proven lines.

One thing about starting a breeding operation at the moment is it's all relative, there are some fantastic brood mares for sale and incredibly reasonable prices so for someone setting up, providing they are able to hold stock at a low expenditure for however long it takes the market to better recover, then they could end up with jolly nice foundation mares for their programme.

 

[crazycoloured]

One thing about starting a breeding operation at the moment is it's all relative, there are some fantastic brood mares for sale and incredibly reasonable prices so for someone setting up, providing they are able to hold stock at a low expenditure for however long it takes the market to better recover, then they could end up with jolly nice foundation mares for their programme.[/QUOTE]
Agree with this...

 

[crazycoloured]

ooops must be an error,i agree with what spring feather quoted above..

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks for the replies... This post was not done for my own mares. I am pretty much decided on stallions for my mares for this year, it was more something I noticed happening in the dressage breeding sphere (that is my main interest so the one I have been looking into).

One of my favourite stallions of all time is Kostolany... and I am hoping to use him either this year or next year. But I also have to admit to liking some of the more 'fashionable' ones too and would very much like to use Sir Donnerhall this year too.

I think you have to breed horses that you yourself would like to keep too, after all, you may end up keeping them until backing etc and you have to enjoy working with them. A good friend of mine said you only sell the ones that you would like to keep, and this makes perfect sense to me.

I just wondered whether breeders found themselves straying away from proven combinations in favour of trying one of the more 'fashionable' ones for selling purposes.

 

[magic104]

I actually think this is a question also put to the buyer. When I have been researching breeding lines been surprised by how many riders/producers have horses by the same stallion. What have you found as a rider listening to other riders?

 

[_jetset_]

Magic104, that is a very good point.

I remember a few years back no one would touch a Gribaldi with a barge pole, then Totilas came on the scene and all of a sudden Gribaldis were a really sought after riding horse type!

As you can tell, this type of thing fascinates me. If I had the time I would love to do a study on the pattern of breeding...

 

[tigers_eye]

I'm more familiar with the Dutch system than German, this subject is a hot potato there. The stallions are approved at a young age and compared to many studbooks cover a lot at 3, 4 and 5 if they have a good test, often thanks to some serious marketing! Because some bloodlines are so prevalent there breeders often have a good idea of what a young stallion will pass on in terms of traits but of course using a youngster is a gamble. It could be that the stock will be fab and make headlines at sales, and then you'll be ahead of the crowd. It could also turn out that the offspring are duds... Many breeders there feel young stallions should have more limited covering opportunities. Thing is if you have great mares they will make up for a lot, I think if you're lucky enough to have the land and be able to invest in great mares now you'll be laughing in a few years. Can I be nosy and ask what lines the mares you've bought have?

 

[_jetset_]

Yes of course you can be nosy...

My first one is one I actually ride and I am hoping to use her via embryo transfer next year. She is Houston x Gregor x Uppercut and is graded KWPN (when I get around to it I am looking to have her put forwards for PROK). Her full sisters are all used for breeding purposes at the stud in Holland where she was bred and they have produced some seriously wonderful stock so I have some fantastic back up from her breeder too which I am very lucky to have. Her sisters have mainly been put to Vivaldi, Tango and Apache so I have a really good starting block in knowing what kind of stallions most suit her lines as she is very similar to her full sisters.

My second one is one I have bred myself. She is only 2 this year but hopefully she will prove herself ridden and she will also be used to breed from. She is Jazz x Weltmeyer x Eisenherz I. She is a stunning filly and I am hoping to grade her through KWPN next year as a 3 year old. Although looking at her at the moment she rather resembles a yeti!

The third one is one I bought last year. She is a Baden-Wuttemberg mare who is Sandro Hit x Weltmeyer x Nebelhorn and is in foal to Oliver HFD (already in foal when I purchased her). I really like the foals she has produced already and she is a real riding horse type too. She has competed over in Germany before having her foals and I am a little bit smitten with her. I keep telling myself I MUST NOT RIDE HER! Ha ha

The fourth is one that I have bought on the quality of the foals she has already produced rather than her breeding lines. She is an Old. mare who is Royal of Loh x Leibniz x Waipiti. She had a Rubin Star N foal this year who is absolutely exquisite and who was highly praised at his grading. She is currently in foal to Woodlander Rockstar and I am very excited about this one because this mare is very refined and elegant.

I also have a colt who I am going to reassess later this year (he was a later foal) who is Don Ricoss x Espri x Akzent I. But again, he resembles a yeti at the moment too as all my babies and broodmares are living out at the moment in this beautiful weather

 

[tigers_eye]

Ooh there are some lovely lines there! Bet you are already dreaming of some time down the line when you breed one combining all your foundation mares!

The first one, is she the one you've posted some pictures of in the past? Either black or dark bay? Excellent having the knowledge of what her sisters have produced, so important.

How does the Jazz x Weltmeyer look like turning out? Again worth looking to others who have made that cross when picking a stallion for her.

The two proven brood mares sound fab too, great that you've been able to secure proven top class producers. And a Rockstar foal into the bargain! I think he's going to be a great producer of horses that go far, he himself is coming into his own the further up the ranks he goes.

How exciting for you, very best of luck!

 

[MillionDollar]

Lovely to hear about what you already have! Be really interesting to see all your first foals on the ground as they sound high quality indeed

 

[magic104]

jetset dont over do it as I believe you are also expecting this year. I have had to ask a friend if she thinks she is superwoman what with expecting her first baby in April & acting like it will be nothing to start eventing again for May!!

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks Magic104... I am due in 3 weeks!

I don't think I could have managed this winter without them being at home as they would all have to go on full livery as I ended up in hospital with preterm labour symtpoms. So I have taken it much easier the last couple of weeks after believing, like your friend, that I was superwoman!

Thankfully, things have all settled down and I am classed as term now, so have started doing a little more again now and feeling so much better for it I have had lots of planning time though...

 

[AmyMay]

Congratulations Jetset. Wonderful news.

Time to start looking out for a really good groom I'd say....

 

[Sportznight]

Time to start looking out for a really good groom I'd say....

Naaaahhh, she's breeding her own of those too lol

 

[AmyMay]

Naaaahhh, she's breeding her own of those too lol

 

[_jetset_]

Ha ha... isn't that the only reason we have children???

I will just be glad when she arrives as I am starting to feel rather fed up of nothing fitting, feeling stuffed after a mouthful of food and having to watch my friend working Bols! Hey ho, not too long and like I say, it has given me plenty of time to get things organised for 2012, I have lists coming out of my ears!

 

[magic104]

Ha ha... isn't that the only reason we have children???

I will just be glad when she arrives as I am starting to feel rather fed up of nothing fitting, feeling stuffed after a mouthful of food and having to watch my friend working Bols! Hey ho, not too long and like I say, it has given me plenty of time to get things organised for 2012, I have lists coming out of my ears!

Oh trust me, cheaper to hire one then breed one! Mine is 20 in June & thanks to her changing her mind career wise (she is now a working pupil at an Event yard) I am still helping out without any of the benefits!

 

[stolensilver]

I'm a very small time breeder, I've got one broodmare. But I have spent an enormous amount of time educating myself about stallions and breeding. And I've come to a few conclusions.

The first one is you are most likely to make a profit if you sell your baby horse as a foal. If you wait till they are 3 and under saddle although you may get 12-15K for a nice one it will have cost you that much and more to get one to that age and backed. The reason for this is that horses are so self destructive. Almost every horse ever born has a major vets bill somewhere in their first 3 years of life. Add to that the youngsters who self harm so badly they have to be put down or become a lawn ornament. That all comes out of your costs with no possibility of any profit on an injured horse.

The second is that breeding for GP is completely and utterly different from breeding for young horse sales. If you want to be a serious breeder with a good reputation I think you will have to do a bit of both. Use the foal-maker stallions to ensure you sell some of your young stock as foals (S line is good for this) then use the unfashionable GP producers on your best competition mares and don't offer those for sale till they are going under saddle and their trainability shines through (most of these stallions are "old fashioned" such as De Niro and Breitling W)

Thirdly most riders are amateurs and can't ride a top dressage prospect, even though they'd like to think they can. The power and athleticism of a top young horse are bordering on frightening even when they aren't doing anything naughty. So go for trainability in the stallions you pick for potential top of the sport crosses. Also make sure you go and see the stallion in person and find out whether he has any heritable problems such as OCD, roaring or angular limb deformities. You'd be amazed how many major names have one, two or three of these, all carefully hidden on their promotional videos. You also need to see the stallion in person to assess how big he is (there's at least one stallion who is officially 16.1 that actually stands under 15hh) and how much bone he has. Many heavily promoted stallions have pitifully little bone these days, so little I doubt their ability to stay sound long term. Its also important to find out whether a stallion's stock stay sound in mind and limb when out competing. Some very popular and heavily used stallions have not competed themselves and only a tiny % of their stock are out competing. When that happens you know there is a problem.

What I've found is that if you have a really nice mare (mine is ID x TB and she's done a bit of everything extremely well, bloodhounding over the biggest country and competing to PSG in dressage. She retired to broodmare duties sound as a 16yo) the mare sells the foals. My mare's first foal went to an Advanced eventing home. I'm keeping her second. Both of these were by Silvermoon who is of course by Kostolany. He's available frozen and I believe the frozen is good quality. Silvermoon was also the sire of Blue Hors Matine plus 3 other international GP horses and an Advanced eventer from very few foals. My mare's third foal is still cooking. That one is by Upton's Deli Circus (chosen because he's sound and still competing age 22, he has a lovely temperament and has produced a 4**** eventer from a tiny handful of foals) I've got several people interested based on knowing the mare and the foal isn't due till May. So sometimes you don't need fashionable breeding, you just need word of mouth. You also need a large dollop of luck and I wish you loads of it both with your baby and your breeding business.

 

[Coolnorran]

I was just wondering whether this applied to anyone.

I am just setting up a breeding programme and have been lucky enough to buy some really lovely broodmares who I am thrilled to pieces with. I have bred in the past (I have a home bred rising 5 year old and a home bred rising 2 year old) but these have always been to keep as opposed with the aim of being put on the open market.

I have been looking into foals that are for sale for quite some time, mostly because I was looking for a colt for myself and have noticed that there is always a fashionable stallion whose foals seem to reach a consistently higher price.

I was wondering, as breeders who aim to sell their foals rather than those who breed to produce a horse for themselves, do you become swayed towards using the more fashionable stallions to help sell your stock?

I know in Ireland a foal by a "fashionable" sire will sell, but you won't get continent prices. Not to take away from any of their competition successes but I myself see some of the "fashionable" sires and think that if they didn't jump you'd be very upset to have them in the yard. I think if your mares are good as you say you need to source "raising" stars that are 1st correct models and 2nd good movers. For me right now I am looking at stallions around 6-9 age category that I think will have a good year in 2012. Regardless of who they are by if your foals are are both the correct type and good loose movers coming off your type of mare they should sell well.

Not to contradict myself but I am very interested in Diarado