Using force on horses where appropriate...your thoughts

R2R

R2R

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I am posting this with the aim of making a point, having just trawled through 51 pages of the Parelli thread – and agreed with most of it, I think it is despicable.

Sometimes, in this horsey life, things happen which aren’t very nice. I can think of three things as an example and am sure I could think of a few more- which I am going to use now as a demonstration.

1. About 10 years ago I was at a yard and a foal was orphaned. We had a surrogate mare come in, obviously terrified. The mare was hobbled to allow the foal to drink for the first two days. This saved the life of the foal, however was not particularly nice to look at as the mare was very distressed. In two days the foal and mare were bonded and 10 years later my friend still owns the mare who is no worse for her ordeal.

2. My youngster is VERY stubborn to the point he enjoys being spanked (LOL!!!) however the first time I asked him to go into water we had a 35 minute stand off. I know him very well, he was in no way scared, just taking the mickey. Every time he reared he got a smack – which meant he had welt marks from the whip. He is not damaged in any way, went in the water, jumped more jumps and went in again (with no smacking) afterwards.

3. I have seen (not me) a horse with its leg tied for clipping – same theory it was not scared of the clippers but used to boot out at the person clipping and the year before had shattered my friends thigh bone doing just that. So had its leg tied and stood on 3 legs whilst back end was done – no twitch, no flinching, but safe. Horrid to watch but safe.

I am not in any way defending what happened at the Parelli demo as I think it is hideous BUT my point is sometimes common sense must prevail (surely) and sometimes using force is necessary to speed things up in an emergency/prevent a bigger battle later on/keep the person on the ground safe?

Surely?
 
I would agree. Sometimes I use force on my horse that I am not proud of - although very rarely as he is such an angel :rolleyes: :p

But, I think the main difference if, I do mine in the privacy of my own yard, I don't take myself off to a show, claim to be able to do things and have an audience watch me - completely different imho :)
 
I agree with you on every point.

Examples I can think of is if the horse is injured, and him running would injure him, pinning him down til the vet came would be fine in my books.

Likewise, if there is lifesaving treatment, then its acceptable.

If the horse needs something doing and it CANT wait, then its acceptable. I'm not sure how I feel about clipping....I think I agree, but would want them to spend alot of time in the intermediate times working with the horses. Have the utmost respect for a friend who has spent ALL YEAR using baby clippers on her horse who is absolutely terrified. Horse is now bald as a coot in places!! but is SO much better with clippers.

The example of mare and foal is also fine, obviously so long as mare checked by vet for no injuries caused by it after.

Have to say I also agree with your example of the water jump, as you're not "beating" him, just teaching a lesson by using well timed smacks.

xxxx
 
Of course, sometimes force is needed - having seen a horse half stuck over a breast bar, it was sheer brute force that got it down again.

Equally, it would probably be called force the way I wormed the cats the other day - they were very cross, but they needed worming!!! I got someone to hold them on their backs, front & back paws held, and tablets were gone in about 30 seconds. Without the force, I'd probably still be trying to worm them now!
 
Stencilface said:
I would agree. Sometimes I use force on my horse that I am not proud of - although very rarely as he is such an angel :rolleyes: :p

But, I think the main difference if, I do mine in the privacy of my own yard, I don't take myself off to a show, claim to be able to do things and have an audience watch me - completely different imho :)
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This is also true, I wouldnt put myself in the public eye, just because I wouldnt want a kid thinking it was acceptable to do when their horsie wouldnt stand to be tacked up or as a punishment when it wouldnt jump.
 
I agree. I am no bunny hugging fluffmiester and Hovis gets a wallop when he crosses the line.
He's too bl**dy big to have no manners and if he oversteps the mark he gets a smack.
That said he is never ever around touched around his face or head and never ever in anger. A swift slap on the shoulder and he remembers what manners are.
I agree that force sometimes is neccesary if not pleasant.

However as I posted on the thread in question to use force in an extreme way in front of a crowd of people who admire your work is despicable. To openly condone extreme methods in front of a crowd of mixed and unknown ability who may then think nothing of trying these "methods" at home is wrong on every level conceviable.
If Mr P thinks he did nothing wrong then I would like to deal to him even a bit of what he gave Catwalk in front of a crowd of HHO-ers. Advanced tickets anyone?
 
I agree entirely that on occassions force or restraint is a necessary evil.

As a four year old my mare would not walk on when asked through shear strubborness - she knew what she was being asked to do, was definately not frightened. My instructor gave her three hard smacks across the bottom which did leave marks, needless to say the mare walked on then and when asked subsequently.

She was not damaged by the experience and learnt from it that life is much nicer when she does as she is asked.

However, this, and your examples are very different from beating a horse into submission when it lacks experience or is frightened.
 
Hovis_and_SidsMum said:
I agree. I am no bunny hugging fluffmiester and Hovis gets a wallop when he crosses the line.
He's too bl**dy big to have no manners and if he oversteps the mark he gets a smack.
That said he is never ever around touched around his face or head and never ever in anger. A swift slap on the shoulder and he remembers what manners are.
I agree that force sometimes is neccesary if not pleasant.

However as I posted on the thread in question to use force in an extreme way in front of a crowd of people who admire your work is despicable. To openly condone extreme methods in front of a crowd of mixed and unknown ability who may then think nothing of trying these "methods" at home is wrong on every level conceviable.
If Mr P thinks he did nothing wrong then I would like to deal to him even a bit of what he gave Catwalk in front of a crowd of HHO-ers. Advanced tickets anyone?
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I agree totally with this.

And if there are tickets going count me in :) I'll fly from Holland for that!
 
We got back from a show yesterday and a friend's mare had been kicked. We needed to look at her leg but couldn't get near her to see it. She was rearing and boxing at me......so we put a chifney in.

She was then kicking out, so I held up her front leg. We then could give her leg a good clean and assess if the cut needed stitching etc.

It wasn't pleasant for the mare but then neither is an infected festering wound.

I think sometimes it is necessary. Zoom had a wound on her hock that needed cleaning twice daily but was very sore. She had to have a front leg held up for me to clean that too. I hate doing things like that but it's better than a kick in the head!
 
flamehead said:
I If the horse needs something doing and it CANT wait, then its acceptable. I'm not sure how I feel about clipping....I think I agree, but would want them to spend alot of time in the intermediate times working with the horses. Have the utmost respect for a friend who has spent ALL YEAR using baby clippers on her horse who is absolutely terrified.
xxxx
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Flamehead, to clarify, the horse stood like a lamb eating hay, you could clip its ears, face etc, but when you got up the back end it would just kick out like a nutter and give you no warning - just a hefty boot out or double barrel with its ears still forward. :D
 
What a little monster!! haha ye then obviously I think thats acceptable, would be different if horse was totally panicked all over. xxxx
 
I think it is a case of knowing your horse and what works for him. As a 4 year old my horse did a lot of stopping, and my saddler told me that a few good belts would get him moving forwards. Quite possibly true, Im sure he would have gone, but I knew my horse to be young and unbalance rather than naughty. He thinks the world is pretty frightening, the last thing he needs is to be frightened by me as well. (I hasten to add I am not totally fluffy bunny, he is a well mannered horse who doesn't walk all over me). Obviously the examples given, you used your best judgement about if they were scared or not, and i know there are many bigger, bolshier horses with whom it can become a safety issue.
 
Violence is always required when my horse stands on my foot and won't get off. I have no qualms about hitting him on the shoulder very hard nor shouting at him and pushing with all my might to get him off. He pretends he can't hear me.
 
KatPT said:
I think it is a case of knowing your horse and what works for him. As a 4 year old my horse did a lot of stopping, and my saddler told me that a few good belts would get him moving forwards. Quite possibly true, Im sure he would have gone, but I knew my horse to be young and unbalance rather than naughty. He thinks the world is pretty frightening, the last thing he needs is to be frightened by me as well. (I hasten to add I am not totally fluffy bunny, he is a well mannered horse who doesn't walk all over me). Obviously the examples given, you used your best judgement about if they were scared or not, and i know there are many bigger, bolshier horses with whom it can become a safety issue.
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Completely agree – my youngster is really odd, it’s like he enjoys being spanked and his tail pulled but if I give my big WB a smack up the bum when riding he actually gets worse and can’t deal with the fact I have been mean to him – it honestly takes him about 2 mins to recover from the trauma!!
 
I agree with necesary force, any horse that bites or kicks me gets one good belt and I HATE rearing as an avoidance technique. (I hate it even when it is done in fear tbh but it modify my reaction then).

I may have said this before but the time I was actualy proud of getting it spot on as far as I was concerned. I was leading one of the ponies I looked after and he kicked out at the other pony (not good) unfortunately he hit me. I was unimpressed in the least but not really in a fit state to react. He was terrified. He stood there and shook as soon as he realised he had hit me. I gave him a (rather weak, still couldn't breath) Slap, he stepped back and chilled completely. He was never scared of me before or after. He trusted me but he damn well knew as soon as he had kicked me he was in for a beating and never kicked out at me or anything else while being lead again.
 
Dirtymare said:
Words of wisdom there.......
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Indeed.....my favourite training session was watching him riding his four year old QH who had decided that nope don't want to do bending excercises thanks I will fly buck then tank off....well he tanked and tanked for about 30 circuits of the school whilst Jan just sat there laughing when he got puffed he carried on for another 10 laps till Jan decided he had maybe learnt his lesson.

He then spent 5 mins doing the bending excercises he wanted to do origionally then got off and told horse he was an excellent chap.

It was very funny and very effective to watch!
 
carolineb said:
Violence is always required when my horse stands on my foot and won't get off. I have no qualms about hitting him on the shoulder very hard nor shouting at him and pushing with all my might to get him off. He pretends he can't hear me.
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Absolutely....especially when the little git pretends he doesn't know aht he's done..:eek:

Half a ton of horse doing exactly as it pleases is not good...sometimes you have to be firm and shows them whats acceptable. Smacking around the head etc I do not agree with, but a swift tap on the shoulder and a firm 'NO!' quite often does it.....
 
CrazyMare said:
Of course, sometimes force is needed - having seen a horse half stuck over a breast bar, it was sheer brute force that got it down again.

Equally, it would probably be called force the way I wormed the cats the other day - they were very cross, but they needed worming!!! I got someone to hold them on their backs, front & back paws held, and tablets were gone in about 30 seconds. Without the force, I'd probably still be trying to worm them now!
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Sorry OP this isnt related to your post.....but..... ^^^^^^ we used to have massive dramas trying to worm a cat of ours that was ferrel when it was born and abandoned so we "adopted" it.
It would literally rip your arm off when trying to worm it (the cant was lethal when it wanted to be!!!).....so.......we used to put it down the arm of a coat so his head was pokeing out the end of the sleeve but he couldnt get legs, paws, claws in contact with us. It worked a treat and so we did it every worming time.
Actually that could be classed as force......but we wernt taking any chances! he lived till he was 24.....so i dont think the experience hurt him too much!
 
I totally agree with your scenarios here. My youngster needed his leg looking at over winter and got very bolshy about it. He wasn't scared, I could tell that, but he was just throwing himself around and trying to squish people. Not good when he's a chunky cob! He got a good couple of smacks and when that didn't work, he was twitched. He was no worse for it and was much better next time, and now he's fine.

I also agree with the smack but not around the head. I will not hit Harry on the head if he's naughty, only exception is when he tries to nip and then he gets a quick tap on the nose. He was being impatient yesterday whilst tide to a friend's trailer and kicked it, first time he got a telling off and growled at, second time I was sorting his tail and he got a big smack on his rump. Didn't hurt him but he didn't do it again.

At the end of the day, I think you know your horse. Harry tends to be stubborn, not scared, which I've now learnt and won't let him try and get one up on me. However, others are actually scared and need reassuring, like KatPT and that stallion, and force is not the way to go, you're just making a horrible ordeal even worse and it isn't going to help for next time.

I think it's truely appauling that anyone thinks that was the right way to handle that stallion.
 
Sometimes force is necessary for the benefit and safety of both the horse and the people on the ground.

Holding a front leg to keep a horse still whilst cleaning a wound on a back leg is a good example. Most of the time it is common sense should prevail, most things I have picked up from helping experienced people and asking for help myself.

However I appreciate that common sense does seem to disapear alot around horses.
 
All above are correct as we've all done it at sometime and as a last resort and most sensible at that. Parellie(what ever) makes us look like animal abusers, which we are not,comes down to commonsense. I just wish he and his wife would disappear back to the good old USA and stay there.
 
I totally agree with everything said on this post!

Force is appropriate at times, i used to get really moaned at by my old YO for shouting at Robbie when he tryed to barge out of the stable...well it was the only thing that stopped him in his tracks.
He now can stand , not tied up, with his door open and wont come out till he is allowed

Also will stand with his feed infront of him and not eat it till i move away.

Horses are just like children really they need telling when they are good but also when they are out of order.
 
Chavhorse said:
As my trainer says......make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult..
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In agreement there too, - but sometimes force is necessary and needed to prevent a greater problem, as in the use of hobbles or a twitch. I ve used a twitch on my old cob as he is a pain to clip around the neck and ears andwill try to bolt off. Its quick and takes away any doubt in his mind, effectively makes him relax so I can get on with the job safely. I think with my young horse once I know his parameters better I will put a little more pressure on him. He has certainly had a few clumps now for nipping and turning his rump on me!
 
R2R,I agree with all of the actions in the situations you put.
The clipping scenario is a bit of a tricky one(the horse had issue with one area,it *may* have been possable to get aaway with a different clip that winter and work through the issue once he no longer needed clipping.Then again,maybe it owuldn not have made any difference.....),but as long as work was done to try get the horse used to clippers in between,fair enough.

The difference is,you (and everyone else) does not pretend that those examples are best practise.We know they are usefull "tricks" to keep all involved safe and/or prevent potentialy dangerous behaviour in the future,but don't pretend it is the only way,or as PP does,the only way....
 
After a lovely honeymoon of perfect behaviour of about 6 weeks, my pony started napping the first year I had him, nothing was wrong, just a gelding with his own mind, trying out a new not so confident owner. He would also let me catch him in the field and then bolt off almost throwing me off my feet if I didn't let go off the rope in time. I had to be more confident and firm with him and build up his confidence out hacking and his confidence in me and we got it sorted. He will still try to nap on occasion and I have to use a firm kick and if that doesn't work, a smack from the crop and also voice - only so that it is a short sharp lesson now and we move on with lots of praise when he goes forward. It doesn't look pretty or nice and I'm sure when those on the yard that don't know what he was like 6 years ago (reversing me back at speed to the edge of ditches on the bridleway, or bringing the village road to a standstill, etc) see me on the odd occasion having to do this now they probably tut tut. But I know my horse's mindset and you have to get after him the moment it happens and then it's a quick argument resolved swiftly. He's a clever thinking native which is what I love about him but sometimes has to be reminded that I am part of the equation!
 
If it's needed and not seriously hurting the horse then i don't have a problem with it. It may make me come across as cruel, but it's true.

I have a 15hh Traditional Cob, He's a big strong lad and if he gets bolshy it can get dangerous, esp as my mum is only 5ft2 ish, so we have to make sure he has ground manners, We've never been beaten, but he's had the odd smack, when we first got him. He's now an angel the majority of the time...and he's always warned with a stern voice if he's pushing it.

Same with Blue, Tho my mum doesn't handel him as much he still needs basic manners, such as not crowding at feed time, and not barging, for when she does. I don't use force, but have been very firm with him, and he seems to respect it, as he walks all over my sharer at times, because she lets him.

When my YO's mare gave birth, they had to pin her against the wall for the foal to feed as she was trying to kick the cr*p out of it, it was force but it was needed.
 
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