Using someones Lorry and payment??

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djlynwood

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I got offered use of a horsebox at £20 per outing. I initally offered to fill it up with fuel and help out with cost of running and somehow we ended up on agreeing on £20 per use. Without really thinking it through, I jumped at the opportunity as Im dying to get out.

This horsebox was only used twice last year so Im doing the owner a bit of a favour taking it out and she has also asked me to drive her to the beach occasionally. I did say that I would probably take it out every weekend.

I asked to use the box on Sunday and text the owner to make sure it was ok if I took a friend and her horse. I had already said to box owner that if I take another horse it would be one that I know is a good traveller.

The owner of the lorry sent a reply saying 'yes thats fine, fill up lorry and it is £20 per horse/person'

I was shocked that she wanted another £20 for a second horse.

We ended up borrowing someone elses lorry who only wanted the cost of the fuel!

Is the owner of the lorry within reason to ask for £20 per use or per person/horse even?

I was not expecting to use it for nowt but it will be over £1000 in a year.
 
Using it for hire and reward will negate her insurance and it is illegal unless it is kept for that purpose with all the extra expense involved, so what she is doing could cost her far more than she will make, not sure if you would be covered if you had an accident so you are best out of it.
 
Maybe owner thought you understood her offer of using it for 20 , was 20 per horse, and you thought 20 per trip. Maybe a word about it could sort it out probably just crossed wires!!
I have a two horse lorry, I was being pretty flexible with its use, till some one took it without asking me when I was away!! It caused bit of friction, now I've stopped offering so much freely, and had to put foot down sometimes, because of costs ect.
I just take fuel money, and they normally offer bit extra, but it's me or YO or my mate who drive it,
Cost are high for keeping it on road
Fuel 30 miles to a gallon
Insurance 300 year
Breakdown 130 year
Servicing. 250 year
Wear and tear300 year
Road tax 230 year

Hope you can sort it out, maybe you could do some arrangement where you share costs like my mate and me do, and just fuel per mile after each use. We both pay half and use lorry when we want. Pay our own fuel.
 
I am afraid that what you have done invalidates the insurance of the vehicle as it is only insured for private use and not for hire.

The first thing you need to check out is that you are fully insured under the insurance policy to drive the vehicle with your own or someone elses horses on-board. The owner may not ask you to pay a 'Hire' charge.

You also need to check that the vehicle has full breakdown insurance including recovery of the horses in the event of a breakdown.

(Make sure it has a current MOT and is taxed)!
 
be positive said:
Using it for hire and reward will negate her insurance and it is illegal unless it is kept for that purpose with all the extra expense involved, so what she is doing could cost her far more than she will make, not sure if you would be covered if you had an accident so you are best out of it.
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H&W is not an issue because it is not making or intending to make a profit as a commercial undertaking
 
As a lorry-owner who occasionally takes friends out, I'm afraid I'm with the owner ;)

You say she hardly uses it, but you want to use it every other weekend, costing you up to £1k/year. A relatively cheap plating can come in at that cost - and if you're the only one using the lorry, the owner will end up paying more in wear & tear than you are contributing.

I have a friend who regularly asks me to take her somewhere, and pays for the diesel. She really doesn't appreciate the costs involved in running the lorry; and as either my horse or I have been on box rest over the last year, I've hardly used it for myself. In fact, in the last 2 years I think I have taken my horse out in it 4 times, and her horse probably about 15 times; the lorry has cost me about £2-£3k to run in that time.
 
Maybe I am just being picky.

We both checked through the insurance and breakdown documents. The insurance says that anyone else can drive the lorry provided they have the permission on the policy holder which I do as I do let her know when Im going to be using it.

I know £20 per trip/horse (whatever it is!) is cheaper than hiring a box and certainly cheaper than getting my own (which I could never afford).

Its just going to mount up if I take it out twice a week!
 
djlynwood said:
Maybe I am just being picky.

We both checked through the insurance and breakdown documents. The insurance says that anyone else can drive the lorry provided they have the permission on the policy holder which I do as I do let her know when Im going to be using it.

I know £20 per trip/horse (whatever it is!) is cheaper than hiring a box and certainly cheaper than getting my own (which I could never afford).

Its just going to mount up if I take it out twice a week!
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Sorry to sound rude, but don't take it out twice a week then. I wish I could get the chance you have been offered, it would save me a fortune.
 
I'm not sure I see the problem here either.

You pay your £20 and get your friend to pay the other £20 for her horse.

£20 plus diesel per outing is pretty cheap! I'm another that thinks you don't quite understand the amount of money it costs to keep a lorry well maintained and on the road.

I take mine out 3-4 times per month and it still costs me more than £20per trip + fuel!!
 
Are you seriously getting upset at £20!!!!! OMG I am in shock. That is a right bargain even if it is £20 per horse.

I do not have my own lorry and end up hiring a box or a transporter and it usually ends up being a few HUNDRED!!!!!!!!

If I had the opportunity to use one for £20 I would not be moaning!!!!!!!!! what is the issue anyway, your friend would pay the extra £20!
 
ROG said:
How did you insure it for you to drive it ? = named driver third party or fully comp ??
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I insured with shearwater , with two named drivers , me my mate and YO. Me and mate pay everything half each. Our kids are in same. Pony club and Polocrosse club so they go out together anyway. YO uses it to bring our horses back from field or if she needs take to vets ect.
 
Thanks for your replies, I totally understand how expensive these things are which is why I know that I could never afford to have one myself.

I originally thought the £20 per trip was fine and I agreed to it but it was only when I got asked for another £20 for another horse to travel, and it was this friend who was coming with me who thought that I was being taken advantage of.

She has her own lorry which was being repaired, hence going with me. She would never charge anyone to go with her in her lorry and just asks for half fuel.

A few other lorry owners on the yard have said that it seems a lot.

Im not looking a gift horse in the mouth as I know Im lucky to be given the chance to use it. It helps to have the feedback from here that Im not being taken advantage of.
 
Gosh I think £20 per trip each is really generous of the person lending it.

It costs me at least £60 per month to keep my box on the road and that's before any repairs, servicing or putting diesel in!!
 
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I'd bite her hand off!

You're not paying for any of the maintenance and repairs, 20 pounds a go is brilliant and I wish I knew someone who would lend me their lorry for that. The fact you know two people who will lend you their lorry, well lucky you!

For the rest of us, its 100 quid a day to hire one, plus fuel!

Also, you are perfectly entitled to money for covering costs of fuel etc for use of your lorry without invalidating insurance.
 
mandwhy said:
I'd bite her hand off!

You're not paying for any of the maintenance and repairs, 20 pounds a go is brilliant and I wish I knew someone who would lend me their lorry for that. The fact you know two people who will lend you their lorry, well lucky you!

For the rest of us, its 100 quid a day to hire one, plus fuel!

Also, you are perfectly entitled to money for covering costs of fuel etc for use of your lorry without invalidating insurance.
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Sorry slightly off topic but is this true by law? If so how do you work out what these costs are and how much to ask for?
 
Your friend needs to butt out. To quibble £20 to go out to a jolly in a lorry, honestly some people :mad: Lorry owner is being more than fair.

I am about to buy a lorry, it takes a lot of £20 notes to do this and although I would lend it to trusted people, one peep of ungrateful behaviour, just one peep and they are out. Don't let your friend lose you this opportunity.
 
RebelRebel said:
Your friend needs to butt out. To quibble £20 to go out to a jolly in a lorry, honestly some people :mad: Lorry owner is being more than fair.

I am about to buy a lorry, it takes a lot of £20 notes to do this and although I would lend it to trusted people, one peep of ungrateful behaviour, just one peep and they are out. Don't let your friend lose you this opportunity.
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This.

Its generous to offer someone a lift if they are going to the same place as you but its MASSIVELY generous to lend someone your box when you are not actually making the trip yourself

The owner of the box is a saint, dont let your friend put the boot in and wreck it for you. they may well offer lifts for the price of fuel but I doubt they would let someone take their box unsupervised just for the cost of fuel
 
£20 is cheap!! I pay £40 per trip plus fuel when using a friends lorry and it still works out cheaper than buying my own box.
 
Another way of looking at it is that if I dont use it, Im not paying for a lorry standing there!

So, I do realise now how lucky I am.
 
webble said:
Sorry slightly off topic but is this true by law? If so how do you work out what these costs are and how much to ask for?
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It is true by law, well government rules anyway. It was a grey area until a year or two back when VOSA finally produce a horsebox and trailer owners guide which is very useful and everyone should download it.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf

See page 6 for examples of what is classed as non business use cost sharing type arrangements.

However the costs that are charged must only relate to direct cost sharing. Fuel sharing is definitely allowed. Whether further payment is allowed is still undefined. If it is a small amount and clearly nowhere near allowing any profit to be made, they might allow it (VOSA that is). However I would want to make sure the insurance company took the same view. In particular once you start charging on a per head basis it slightly weakens the lorry wear and tear contribution argument since alto the second horse will be more wear and tear the main wear and tear is the lorry going out per se.

Personally I think it's safer to stick to very good friends only, and fuel costs only. But I'm afraid I wouldn't lend it as often as the OPs owner is willing to do, so OP is getting a very good deal - assuming the insurers are happy with the charging arrangement not being 'hire and reward' .......

NB I think it's in the same document that the legend (increased by officious officers on the roads) that you have to have trailers downplated to match your vehicle towing capacity even if you never carry more than the vehicle limit the trailer is completely debunked - the only reason to have to downplated a trailer is if your driving licence classes restricts what you can tow eg - otherwise it is the actual load you are towing that is what matters, hope this helps some folks!
 
It can only be looked upon as business use if it makes a profit or the intention is to make a profit

Fuel, wear and tear, covering other expenses is perfectly ok for private use

VOSA etc have to prove in a court that it is a commercial operation - it is not up to the defendant to prove otherwise
 
Insurance and liability issues aside,

You sound like you don't have a clue how much it costs to keep a lorry on the road. I would say you are bloody lucky having access at all!!! £20 per horse is a complete bargin.
 
Hoofprints in the Snow said:
Sorry to sound rude, but don't take it out twice a week then. I wish I could get the chance you have been offered, it would save me a fortune.
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Same here.....I hate towing...if someone offered me a lorry for diesel and 20 quid I'd be well chuffed.

It would cost you significantly more to buy, maintain, plate and insure one for yourself.
 
Costs to hire transport locally for me:

Trailer - £35 per day (still need your own vehicle)
3.5 ton lorry - £110 per day
7.5 ton lorry - (V.hard to hire without driver, with driver £25 an hour minimum 5 hours and carries 3 horses)
HGV - £50 per horse (4 horses)

Cost just to park my lorry at my yard - £20 per month
 
I think some people here are getting confused. Vosa have no interest in anyone renting out the use of a lorry. This does not fall within the scope of opertator licensing. It is only when a transport service is offered for hire or reward or transport is carried out as part of a business,that they become interested.
 
Mike007 said:
I think some people here are getting confused. Vosa have no interest in anyone renting out the use of a lorry. This does not fall within the scope of opertator licensing. It is only when a transport service is offered for hire or reward or transport is carried out as part of a business,that they become interested.
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. Agree VOSA not so interested possibly.....but insurance companies you can bet your life will interpret it as anything other than the very clear limited examples VOSA cite. Or if not, I would want it from my insurance company in writing that they were happy with the use, in writing.
 
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