Using stallions with the wrong temperament

[Pipkin]

What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks

 

[magic104]

What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks

Wouldnt touch it & wouldnt need to as there are enough decent ones to choose from. There is a difference between sharp & nasty. Nasty temperments can be man made, so the breeding needs to be looked at more closely. No one needs to take the risk though what is the point, as already said there are enough decent stallions to pick from.

 

[Enfys]

I wouldn't stand or use one personally, but I've worked with plenty of stallions that were holy terrors, and, on the other hand, plenty that weren't.

Many years ago down in East Devon there was a stallion who had a reputation for his volatile temperament.

He was, despite this, extremely popular as he threw tremendously talented stock, I handled many of them and the ones I knew were, ummm, quirky, shall we say?

Hmmm, Catch 22 isn't it?
Statistically progeny have a 50/50 chance of inheriting any traits I presume, (potential) talent versus temperament.

 

[cruiseline]

There are enough wonderful stallion around who do have good temperaments, so I would not touch one that was nasty........................

 

[Simsar]

Our nasty went to the kennels!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Temperament is at the very top of my list where stallion traits are concerned - but I am careful about other people's opinions! When I first bought my lovely boy 9 years ago, someone told me that he was 'known to be nasty'!! Thankfully, I'd met him and handled him and KNEW that was total bo**ocks - and 9 years on I know it even better and doubt there is a stallion in the world with a better temperament!! And I've backed and handled enough of his youngstock to know that he passes it on - whatever the mare!

But I do have a youngster here for rebacking who is by a stallion reputed to be sharp and difficult! The youngster is VERY sharp and difficult - but how much is due to the stallion - and how much is due to the botched 1st backing at another yard - I can't determine!

If a stallion IS sharp/quirky - and throws these traits - then it is even MORE important that they are handled right from day 1!!

 

[toffeesmarty]

When we visited a well known stud there was only one which had a full grid across his stable door of 10+ stallions.
Despite being encouraged to use him - stud owner said he was the better of the two I was considering - the need for the grill put me off completely! For me, temperament is the most important ingredient.

 

[JanetGeorge]

When we visited a well known stud there was only one which had a full grid across his stable door of 10+ stallions.
Despite being encouraged to use him - stud owner said he was the better of the two I was considering - the need for the grill put me off completely! For me, temperament is the most important ingredient.

A grill doesn't necessarily mean bad temperament - my big boy has one because otherwise he just walks through the door (he's BIG!) And he only does that so he can get to the food supplies!

The REAL test is to see if they'll let you go into the stable without putting a Chifney on the stallion first! I take people into my boy without even putting a headcollar on him - and a couple of times have legged a visitor's child onto him the same way!

 

[ritajennings]

Temperament would be at the top of my list, I bred quite a few foals myself and worked with several stallions before I stood my own all were very well mannered, they still had the presents and wow factor but knew who was in charge.
The likes of Banks Fee Daniel, Snowford Bellman, Happy Ending Winmaur Sergent Pepper all Reg Irish draught, Sykes and Birthright both TB were stood and owned by Maggie Spreckley-Dollard where I worked on and off for 25 years, every single one of the above mentioned stallions behaved very well and I was happy to us them at one time or other but I am always amazed by peoples reactions to stallions with many liking a entire to be 'hot', I am sorry but a stallion has to have presents and most do and just because a Stallion is well mannered and knows how to behave to be branded too quite is a shame.
One thing is for sure take everything you hear about a Stallion with a pinch of salt if you cannot see a stallion up close in person try and speak to someone who has, never take gossip as gospel, many stallions out there do not deserve the bad reputation like Janets Raj, I also had heard he was a handful many years ago and have since meet him an he is a darling, but this does work the other way with stallions getting a good reputation when they are very naughty boys indeed.

 

[Pipkin]

Temperament would be at the top of my list, I bred quite a few foals myself and worked with several stallions before I stood my own all were very well mannered, they still had the presents and wow factor but knew who was in charge.
The likes of Banks Fee Daniel, Snowford Bellman, Happy Ending Winmaur Sergent Pepper all Reg Irish draught, Sykes and Birthright both TB were stood and owned by Maggie Spreckley-Dollard where I worked on and off for 25 years, every single one of the above mentioned stallions behaved very well and I was happy to us them at one time or other but I am always amazed by peoples reactions to stallions with many liking a entire to be 'hot', I am sorry but a stallion has to have presents and most do and just because a Stallion is well mannered and knows how to behave to be branded too quite is a shame.
One thing is for sure take everything you hear about a Stallion with a pinch of salt if you cannot see a stallion up close in person try and speak to someone who has, never take gossip as gospel, many stallions out there do not deserve the bad reputation like Janets Raj, I also had heard he was a handful many years ago and have since meet him an he is a darling, but this does work the other way with stallions getting a good reputation when they are very naughty boys indeed.

Well it was the stallion and stud owner who has said he was nasty...i think its irresponsible to openly know a stallion was dangerous and then breed from it....

 

[jcwh]

OP: is it NASTY behaviour or SHARP behaviour? because for me, nasty = never breed from it. but sharp temperaments can sometimes follow very ttalented horses, mostly professional horses but they are talented nonetheless.
hickstead, ratina z, jazz, they all have sharp temperaments. but they are/were at the top of their game.

i would breed from a sharp horse provided everything compliments stallion and mare. but nasty? never.

 

[Vickijay]

Ive met one stallion with a nasty temprement. In the stable he was tied up on about 2" of rope, you couldnt go near the biting end! He came out of stable on lunge line and as soon as out was rearing and striking out at his handler. Didnt even consider him due to that.

There are so many nice natured stallions out there I dont know why you would even chance it. Part of it for me is choosing a stallion that I think that I could get on and ride and handle.

3 of the nicest behaved stallions I have met were Legrande, Future Illusion and Wish upon a star (I was invited to go ride him but )

 

[Pipkin]

OP: is it NASTY behaviour or SHARP behaviour? because for me, nasty = never breed from it. but sharp temperaments can sometimes follow very ttalented horses, mostly professional horses but they are talented nonetheless.
hickstead, ratina z, jazz, they all have sharp temperaments. but they are/were at the top of their game.

i would breed from a sharp horse provided everything compliments stallion and mare. but nasty? never.

He sounds a lot like the horse mentioned above, he strikes out when rears and has a nasty bite (farriers helper nearly had a heart attack yesterday lol)
well owner said nasty and dangerous, and my boy is nasty he lunges for you will rear unless he has a dually on and could quite easily have caused my farrier some damage yesterday...he came right for a while but has gone back to old ways almost over night, he`s not so bad with me I can read him like a book and know when he is going to go up, spin or try take your head off He may only be my fourth youngster to own but I`ve handled alot of other peoples youngsters and he is most definitely not normal..if you go to look over his door in the morning he will more often than not come flying towards you ears back....am at my wits end to be honest...was all set to have him blood tested but now apparently he has been cut properly and just has dads traits....could never sell him on like this, no matter how nasty I wouldnt want him passed on all the time.
Am just shocked how the stud owner can laugh about it and think it`s funny

 

[JoBird]

All I know is my filly was a terrible biter and had far too much attitude. She would bite everyone (me included) and the farrier which wasnt helpful. She is 3 now and I have since found out her sire was a biter too! I would be a lot more cautious now when choosing a stallion to ask the right questions ...

 

[ElleSkywalker]

Temperament & conformation have always been top of my list! I wouldn't mind a sharp stallion if I were wanting to breed and event type, but nasty, never!

There are enough talented but good natured stallions out there to risk the 50% chance of getting an equally 'difficult' foal.

If we as mare owners were to breed from a nasty mare would we not be slated for doing it?

I did read with interest in this weeks H&H that a welsh study had found that 34% of stallions looked at in the study had poor confirmation & temperament, against only 5% of mares having poor conf & temperament, interesting!

I know this is only a snapshot but as a mare owner I get sick of defending my discisson (sp) to breed from my mares constantly, I have thought long & hard about using my mares, but this study suggests that there are stallion owners out there who have not done the same, leading to situations like OP's where they now have a horse who is difficult to deal with and that they are too responsible to sell. I would be upset at the stallion owner thinking its funny too!!

Would like to add however that the stallion owners on here are great, I love the fact that they are honest about their boys and that they are happy to share their knowledge with us (much) less experianced folks

 

[AMH]

Conformation is the first thing I look at. If it's poorly conformed or not a suitable match for my mare, then it's a no go.

BUT, once I've decided that's right, temperament is next. I breed horses I would like to own and ride myself, and I wouldn't want a b****** on my yard!

Having said that, it's important to distinguish between temperament faults and a stallion being a stallion. I would forgive a stallion some quirky behaviour, just as I would a mare, to a certain extent. Also, there are some people who stand stallions who just don't seem to know how to handle them, and that's not the stallion's fault.

And someone mentioned a stallion in East Devon... I think I know which one you mean, and his reputation was legendary! The adverts for the offspring in the local papers were always interestingly worded.

 

[Blacklist]

What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks [/QUO

There is a lot of crap talked about temperaments look at the many examples of bad tempered horses which had good tempered parents and also the opposite. However there are execeptions to the rule.

All stallions used for natural covering can be a bit edgy during the covering season when normally they are pussycats - hormones.

In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.

 

[welshsporthorse]

We have stood many stallions here over the years our own and other peoples and without exception they were good natured and on the whole gentlemen to handle by a totally female staff. In fact most of them we could offer a ride on if the mare owner was competent. A lot of poor behaviour is that and not bad temperament on the whole. We have been lucky to aquire stallions over the years that have not generally been put on a " stallion" pedestal and treated differently. They were bought up properly to have manners and behave. We also have a policy of turning out the boys daily come rain or shine, summer and winter. This helps a lot . We have secure paddocks and can leave an empty field between each stallion. Most of the stallions we have owned since young. The welsh cob stallion owners are sometimes daft in their management of stallions, locking them in to get them fat, and full of fire, but often with turnout they revert to normal. There has been the odd downright nasty stallion that I have come accross and Im afraid my attitude is that it should be in a can. I agree that sharp sometimes equals talent but downright nasty is just dangerous. Stallions never forget unfair behaviour towards them and will always get you back one day, so the skill is in their handling really. Mind you I have come across some pretty nasty masres in my lifetime and these I certainly wouldnt breed from as I think they have even more influence on their offspring.

 

[Pipkin]

There is a lot of crap talked about temperaments look at the many examples of bad tempered horses which had good tempered parents and also the opposite. However there are execeptions to the rule.

All stallions used for natural covering can be a bit edgy during the covering season when normally they are pussycats - hormones.

In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.

In a way i get what your saying but in all the time I`ve had my boy he`s been handled the way he should, he`s not bullied he`s not pushed do something, time has been taken with him, if he`s in the wrong then yes i`m firm with him. Yeah ok he is not kept with girls but thats out of a safety issue, had enough of bringing one of the mares in covered in nasty bite marks, constantly being mounted and pushed around. He is stabled next to them and all can see each other when turned out are just in different fields.
The dam is also opinionated so I just thought all the bad points had indeed rubbed off on him...

 

[koeffee]

wouldnt dream of using a stallion with an iffy temerament, my 3yro son helps me around the yard and comes in both my boy boxes, mouse puts his head down for cuddles and nose pulls and lou comes for scratches i trust both, neither bite, kick, hack out like best mates, stabled so they can say hello and kiss each other and turned out daily!!! not together!!

 

[madlady]

I wouldn't use a stallion with a bad temperament and I think it is irresponsible of the stallion owner to breed from something that bad. Even if a stallion produces very talented offspring what is the point if they are dangerous to deal with?

I have a 2yo colt who will be staying entire until next year at least - next year he will be graded, if he doesn't get a good linear score then he will be gelded but he would have been gelded long before now no matter how good I think he is if he didn't have a good temperament.

 

[Blacklist]

In a way i get what your saying but in all the time I`ve had my boy he`s been handled the way he should, he`s not bullied he`s not pushed do something, time has been taken with him, if he`s in the wrong then yes i`m firm with him. Yeah ok he is not kept with girls but thats out of a safety issue, had enough of bringing one of the mares in covered in nasty bite marks, constantly being mounted and pushed around. He is stabled next to them and all can see each other when turned out are just in different fields.
The dam is also opinionated so I just thought all the bad points had indeed rubbed off on him...

Our TB stallions are stabled next to mares they see everything and are exercised daily. The only thing we do is not to let them see each other covering as jealousy may prevail.

 

[Enfys]

And someone mentioned a stallion in East Devon... I think I know which one you mean, and his reputation was legendary! The adverts for the offspring in the local papers were always interestingly worded.

Honiton area?

 

[elijahasgal]

Me when I choose a stallion, if at all possible, I like to see offspring. Hard sometimes as I also tend on budget to use younger stallions in their first couple of seasons...
I have to really like the stallion, If I found out that the breeder was stallion with a dodgy temprement, I would walk away from ever having any buisness in future.
That said I used a stallion its owners were scared of, but looking at the horse (He was from a line that was known to bite) and considering how he was kept (Barely coming out of the stable, not working, and so being very bouncy when he did) and meeting some of his youngstock, I used him. They were all real nice people, and talented, and i tried hard as babies to nip the nips in the bud, and its worked

 

[magic104]

In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.

Blacklist that is very true, but it is not worth the risk without looking further into the background/breeding. The best working dogs are generally those that come from parents with proven records. Aggression can be encouraged from breeding with animals that have that trait. I dont think I am incorrect in stating aggression can be inherited. Some dogs can be beaten & still they want to be friends, others will turn. What is that if not a temperment trait? The dog that turns, may well have had a nicer temperment if treated well from the start, but its temperment was not strong enough to overcome poor treatment. Same with horses some are just so tolerant of bad handling & others have 0 tolerance. If you have 2 animals with the same low tolerance, then I would think you have just increased the risk in their offspring.

 

[JanetGeorge]

has dads traits....could never sell him on like this, no matter how nasty I wouldnt want him passed on all the time.
Am just shocked how the stud owner can laugh about it and think it`s funny

I accidentally bred one like that - but it was the mare who was more of a problem than the stallion, I think. She was a TB by a stallion I've since heard (although not on GREAT authority) had an 'iffy' temperament! She was as sharp as a razor - though not nasty! I bred one foal from her by a coloured sport horse who appeared to have an excellent temperament, and 3 more by Raj. The coloured was a BEAST from the day he left the womb - I've never known a foal start biting so young! He only 'behaved' for a couple of weeks in his life: for 3 weeks after he was gelded he was rather subdued - and he had a bout of impaction colic duing which he was actually nice! We persevered with him for 4 years and then he developed an obscure lameness issue which appeared to be a hip problem. Vets weren't optimistic about the prognosis - which made me feel better about having him PTS - I could never have sold him! The mare's next 3 foals were MUCH nicer - although still a lot sharper than Raj's youngsters usually are.

The 2nd foal we sold unbacked and he is still with the same owner (an experienced person.) He has his moments - but is generally very good. We're currently backing the 3rd (a filly) and she is sharp-ish - but a nice person, and the 4th (also a filly) is still in the field. Again, she's perfectly nice!

 

[a kind of magic]

My boy (although he is young) has one foal on the ground and is so quiet and trainable that everyone (vets included if it is not our usual vet) thinks he is a gelding. I never bought him with the intention to breed but his temperament was the clincher for me.

He lives out 24/7 with two geldings for company although he is happily stabled and he is very trainable. Leads out in a dually halter, is being started under saddle in a western sidepull and snaffle. I was thinking of putting him in something different bridlewise for covering so that he continues to associate the dually and snaffle with work.

Temperament to me is probably the most important thing!

 

[Blacklist]

Blacklist that is very true, but it is not worth the risk without looking further into the background/breeding. The best working dogs are generally those that come from parents with proven records. Aggression can be encouraged from breeding with animals that have that trait. I dont think I am incorrect in stating aggression can be inherited. Some dogs can be beaten & still they want to be friends, others will turn. What is that if not a temperment trait? The dog that turns, may well have had a nicer temperment if treated well from the start, but its temperment was not strong enough to overcome poor treatment. Same with horses some are just so tolerant of bad handling & others have 0 tolerance. If you have 2 animals with the same low tolerance, then I would think you have just increased the risk in their offspring.

I know horses which have parents which have temperaments to die for but because their offspring have been badly managed or cruelly treated have become bad tempered.

Any animal can turn when ill treated and all animals have this capability if pushed. Magic if you were ill treated would you turn? I would but and I don't have a bad tempered trait (i think!!!)

I have discussed this with my Father in his experience he agrees with me after breeding and handling horses for some fifty odd years.

 

[luckilotti]

I get the impression there are more than some may realise that have the 'wrong temperaments' out there. I know that the majority of stallions are owned by responsible owners but....
when i was looking at stallions to buy (a search that lasted 4 years) the amount i enquired about that were described as 'temperamental' - upon further enquires it turned out that these were the types that were stabled 24/7, with grills on their doors, who you had to take a whip in with you otherwise they would bite (in one case rear) at you! I didnt care what their breeding may be, or how 'pretty' they may be - they shouldnt have been kept entire IMO.

I do also have a breeder friend who used to have such a stallion when i was a teenager. Haylage was shoved through the doorway, water topped up by the hose through the grill, a big clean out every now and then when he was herded out into another pen. It was a very sad life for him what happened to him - he get himself that stressed (as usual) and gave himself a big heart attack and that was the end of him. His temperment didnt seem to be passed on as i assume he was like he was due to something in his past but if i was a mare owner, i certainly wouldnt have considered him based on how he would have been at viewing. Now if you could get him out in a sand paddock, he moved like a dream... try and put a rider on him, he would be adamant to get them off - rear, buck and roll!

Its the above which makes it so valuable to view stallions in as many circumstances as possible - had this stallion have been available via AI.. with a nice video of him moving freely in the school - i could have seen quite a few using him from a distance not knowing the real him....

 

[Blacklist]

I get the impression there are more than some may realise that have the 'wrong temperaments' out there. I know that the majority of stallions are owned by responsible owners but....
when i was looking at stallions to buy (a search that lasted 4 years) the amount i enquired about that were described as 'temperamental' - upon further enquires it turned out that these were the types that were stabled 24/7, with grills on their doors, who you had to take a whip in with you otherwise they would bite (in one case rear) at you! I didnt care what their breeding may be, or how 'pretty' they may be - they shouldnt have been kept entire IMO.

I do also have a breeder friend who used to have such a stallion when i was a teenager. Haylage was shoved through the doorway, water topped up by the hose through the grill, a big clean out every now and then when he was herded out into another pen. It was a very sad life for him what happened to him - he get himself that stressed (as usual) and gave himself a big heart attack and that was the end of him. His temperment didnt seem to be passed on as i assume he was like he was due to something in his past but if i was a mare owner, i certainly wouldnt have considered him based on how he would have been at viewing. Now if you could get him out in a sand paddock, he moved like a dream... try and put a rider on him, he would be adamant to get them off - rear, buck and roll!

Its the above which makes it so valuable to view stallions in as many circumstances as possible - had this stallion have been available via AI.. with a nice video of him moving freely in the school - i could have seen quite a few using him from a distance not knowing the real him....

Hence temperaments are made not born, circumstances play a big part.

Also in IMO nowadays people are not as competent in their handling of temperamental horses.