Using stallions with the wrong temperament
- Thread starter Pipkin
- Start date
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
It's not even that straightforward a question - a "good" temperament for a pet is not necessarily a trainable temperament for a competitor. I think that gets lost sometimes in analysis of stallion testing - people not familiar with the system think a good temperament mark means the stallion is one step up from a beach donkey, when it really means he's a good worker.
And a pleasant temperament is definitely a product of an environment but the key word above is "tolerance". There are definitely inclinations and patterns that run in families. They key is to know what you can and can't manage. Personally, I think life is too short and there are too many good stallions now to put up with c**p but I also realise if the goal is top level athletes, the horses may not be the easiest for the average rider.
Complicated by the fact that within families of horses, it's common for a number of them to end up in the same program, so conformity in that group may say more about the program than the horses. If all of a stallion's owner's progeny is wonderful but everything else on the ground isn't, that still might put me off a stallion because it suggests he either needs VERY careful mare choices or his offspring are not very tolerant of life in the real world.
Technically, I don't think I'd breed to a horse with a particular temperament, as much as certain characteristics - more within a family than in the individual - would put me off. I've worked for a great many breeders and now followed families of horses - you do start to see patterns emerge. One family, a great many of them "stood up" under pressure. Another had a tendency to chuck themselves on the floor - a pretty rare response!
And I knew one mare you produced ONLY insane kids. Really, dangerously bonkers and not necessarily in immediately obvious ways. She was part of a big breeding program so it wasn't a case of the management her foals got, as the other 20 odd they produced a year were not mad. (That said, I knew another mare who produced "lunatics" and it was completely down to her owner and their early handling.) That experience made me much more careful. I doubt you'd see the same sort of effect from a stallion (although I know lines I'd not want, given the choice) but it does bare thinking about.
As to why people use stallions that seem to produce an undesirable temperament . . . why do people do anything bizarre? :rollseys:
And a pleasant temperament is definitely a product of an environment but the key word above is "tolerance". There are definitely inclinations and patterns that run in families. They key is to know what you can and can't manage. Personally, I think life is too short and there are too many good stallions now to put up with c**p but I also realise if the goal is top level athletes, the horses may not be the easiest for the average rider.
Complicated by the fact that within families of horses, it's common for a number of them to end up in the same program, so conformity in that group may say more about the program than the horses. If all of a stallion's owner's progeny is wonderful but everything else on the ground isn't, that still might put me off a stallion because it suggests he either needs VERY careful mare choices or his offspring are not very tolerant of life in the real world.
Technically, I don't think I'd breed to a horse with a particular temperament, as much as certain characteristics - more within a family than in the individual - would put me off. I've worked for a great many breeders and now followed families of horses - you do start to see patterns emerge. One family, a great many of them "stood up" under pressure. Another had a tendency to chuck themselves on the floor - a pretty rare response!
And I knew one mare you produced ONLY insane kids. Really, dangerously bonkers and not necessarily in immediately obvious ways. She was part of a big breeding program so it wasn't a case of the management her foals got, as the other 20 odd they produced a year were not mad. (That said, I knew another mare who produced "lunatics" and it was completely down to her owner and their early handling.) That experience made me much more careful. I doubt you'd see the same sort of effect from a stallion (although I know lines I'd not want, given the choice) but it does bare thinking about.
As to why people use stallions that seem to produce an undesirable temperament . . . why do people do anything bizarre? :rollseys:
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
That's very true! My own stallion's offspring (bred by me) have amazingly good temperaments - which MIGHT be just the way we bring them up. But the number of people who use him and comment on how much 'easier' his foals are than others they have bred by other stallions makes me think it's certainly not JUST upbringing (although that helps of course!)
So if good, trainable temperament is inherited (and I'm absolutely sure it is) then certainly 'hot', 'difficult' - or just plain nasty can also be inherited!
I knew one racing stallion in Australia had a VERY bad reputation for temperament! Over the 18 months I worked for a particular trainer 4 by this stallion came in for training. All bred at different studs - and came in as 2 year olds. ALL were bonkers or just plain nasty - one particular colt I declined to look after (and he was the only horse on an 80 box yard that worried me!) He was downright aggressive! The fillies were just barmy! I remember an owner complaining they'd had a vet's bill for a filly called 'gone beserk' - and they didn't HAVE a filly called 'gone beserk'. I had to explain that was the 'diagnosis' - not the name of the filly! (But it would have been a very suitable name for her!)
I looked after another (old) TB stallion in Australia who had come over from NZ with a VERY bad reputation - rumour had it he had actually killed a stud groom (and I'd believe it!) But in his case it was almost certainly the result of abuse - I found a set of scars on the top of his rump that could ONLY have been caused by someone stabbing a 3-prong pitchfork into him - several times - from above (so they weren't defensive wounds as MIGHT have been the case if they'd been in his chest/neck!) You COULDN'T much out the box with him close enough to SEE a pitchfork - or anything that resembled one!
pintoarabian
Well-Known Member
I would never choose a stallion with a suspect temperament for breeding. Conformation and temperament are at the top of my list every time. There can be no pleasure in owning a horse that you cannot trust. We have our own stallions and they are stabled together in a barn where they can socialise and touch their neighbours. They all have the temperaments of soppy labradors, love human contact and would stand to be groomed for hours. One would lick you to death. Strangely, their foals have all inherited the same temperaments.
toffeesmarty
Well-Known Member
Only just seen this Janet:A grill doesn't necessarily mean bad temperament - my big boy has one because otherwise he just walks through the door (he's BIG!) And he only does that so he can get to the food supplies!
The REAL test is to see if they'll let you go into the stable without putting a Chifney on the stallion first! I take people into my boy without even putting a headcollar on him - and a couple of times have legged a visitor's child onto him the same way!
I understand your point Janet, but the stallion in question not only had a grill but when taken outside his stable was the only one we were 'asked to stand back to give him room' and we wrent allowed to stroke him.
However, I have photos of us inside the stable with the stallion we chose who hasn't got a headcollar on and his door was left open. He is a teady bear!
Regarding the other issues being raised - are we dipping our toes into the nature v nurture debate?
Last edited:
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
You're right - 'stand back and give him room' means the bu**er will kick you into the middle of next week - and if you can't stroke him, it's because you'd likely lose an arm!
Nature and nurture definitely work together! A horse is born with a certain type of temperament and from the moment it hits the ground, external influences come into play that will be either positive or negative! I could bore you with HUNDREDS of examples, but I'll limit myself to just one.
Just occasionally, we miss a foaling! Mare foals early in the field, or whatever! Foals by the same stallion and out of similar types of mares. IF I am at the birth, I can guarantee that at 2 hours old the foal will walk up to me and happily allow me to do almost anything with it. If I find it AT 2 hours old - it will take at LEAST several days to get it to the same point of 'tameness'. I believe foals are born with NO instinctive fear - it develops as the foal starts 'functioning'! And - inevitably - the more 'good' handling a foal gets in the first few DAYS of its life, the easier it is to handle and back for the rest of its life (unless - of course- something ghastly happens to destroy the trust built in those first few hours!)
magic104
Well-Known Member
You cant not, as both contribute to the final outcome. One of my colts was sold last year (rising 3), because of his laid back temperment, which both parents have he got left entire. Not once did he behave coltish & he was never a problem to handle ever. His dam kept him in place out in the paddock & we treated him like normal. The people who bought him sold him on a few months later after gelding him. His new owner started him & started having problems when long reining. She did not know if he was being naughty, but I told her he had never put a foot wrong & was the easiest horse to deal with. Further investigation found he had a wolf tooth that had broken. Once removed he was fine & as those that have read the post & seen the pics he accured 29 BD points in Mar from 7 classes. The older boy, different breeding both parents I would say have good temperments but more sensitive types, is himself more sensitive to deal with. He was far more colty to deal with while we were waiting for him to drop & in the end went in for an opp. Once cut he was much easier to handle & on the whole has taken to his work well. He does not take being bullied, he has to be allowed to work things out. Giz will stand & be sprayed with fly repelant, Prince will dance round you. If you shout he just gets himself in a tizz. Giz's outlook is "Whatever", Prince is "Are you sure?", both have had the same handling. I have heard that the sire of Prince's dam was "Hot". Sas had manners to burn, but was sensitive & that has passed on.
If traits like temperment, work ethic, jumping ability, movement werent passed on, then why do so many of us waste our time looking at blood lines?
Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
With the current climate of liability I can fully understand why you were told to give the stallion room especially if you saw the stallion during the covering season. Horses can be unpredictable during the breeding season and you can find uncharacteristic behavour during this period. ie nibbling etc it is called hormones.
A grill up at at stallions door means bugger all, if other horses are being led by the stable it can be a good precaution but not left up all the time.
prosoup
Active Member
i agree that all horses can be unpredictable, but i would not use one that is "nasty", the same as i would not breed from a mare who is "nasty". temperament is a heritable trait in all animals.
i also agree with the others who make a distinction between nasty and sharp - there has to be some degree of sharpness and reactiveness for a horse to have that x factor.
i also agree with the others who make a distinction between nasty and sharp - there has to be some degree of sharpness and reactiveness for a horse to have that x factor.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I have a mare that has the 'wrong' temperament. She is not nasty, infact she is quite sweet but she is so nervous and is worried most of the time. I don't know if this is nature or nurture, nothing bad has happened to her while I've owned her, but she was seven when I first met her. Unfortunately her temperament has also restricted her ridden career. I can imagine that even if I bred her to the best tempered stallion on the planet, that she would probably teach the foal to be wary of everything.
My filly's parents were both calm, confident and forward thinking types and so is she. She was also well handled from birth and the contrast of how she reacts to new things (compared to my mare) is large.
My filly's parents were both calm, confident and forward thinking types and so is she. She was also well handled from birth and the contrast of how she reacts to new things (compared to my mare) is large.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. Some stallions can be sharp during the breeding season (TB's especially).
My point is that you can't blame stallion owners for asking visitors to keep their distance - just in case, especially with the current fashion of 'liability' claims. Even the quietist of stallions can fling a leg out if they are testosteroned up! or even give a little nip - to me this does not always indicate that they are nasty, just sexed up.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
If some of what I have read on this thread is correct (not) then many of the great HIS TB Stallions of yesteryear would have been considered nasty (nowadays) going by the videos I have seen of the HIS stallion shows at Newmarket from the 60's onwards - rearing up, kicking out very edgy behaviour - to me just stallions been a bit fresh but certainly not nasty.
The majority of them sired wonderful stock, temperaments and all.
Please do not misunderstand me I am certainly not advocating breeding from horses with real 'crackers' downright 'nasty' temperaments - but nurture, situation, circumstances and time of year can play a big part in how a stallion behaves.
In horse breeding there ar no RULES
The majority of them sired wonderful stock, temperaments and all.
Please do not misunderstand me I am certainly not advocating breeding from horses with real 'crackers' downright 'nasty' temperaments - but nurture, situation, circumstances and time of year can play a big part in how a stallion behaves.
In horse breeding there ar no RULES
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I have a gelding with a similar outlook - I've known him his whole life and I know he's always been treated with patience and understanding. I also know his dam and all his brothers (by different stalions), all of whom stayed with the breeder until backing age + - they are all very easy going, trainable temperaments. But the gelding in question is by a stallion with a reputation for throwing "not amateur friendly" horses, which is a shame because he was bought by the stud that stands him for specifically that purpose! (He's coloured and the idea was to breed upper level capable coloured horses that would appeal to the amateur market.) Everyone I've ever talked to who knows his offspring has the same low opinion of their trainability and tolerance although some of the non-coloured ones have gone on to do well with professionals. They are sweet horses and they mean well but EVERYTHING is a drama and it's very difficult to harness their potential and, because they are so inclined to silliness, keep them sound.
On the subject of the old style TB stallions - to be fair, it's not like there were many options. I wouldn't consider horses jumping around a bit in a performance situation, particularly if they don't get out much and with other stallions about, to be particularly indicative of a "bad" temperament but there are certainly "old style" Tb lines known for producing "complicated" horses. most notably St Simon. (I had a St Simon bred event horse and when I researched his family some of his "quirks" turned out to be family traits. He was a fabulous competition horse but could be very difficult to manage and a lot of people would simply have not put up with it or would not have been able to protect him from himself.) Some of these have virtually died out, in part, I suspect, because even racehorse people have their limits and if the complications mean the horses don't run, they won't be having it.
Breeding isn't just about individuals - not every horse expresses all its genetics - it's about trends and patterns. Obviously people make different choices but it's surprising, when you look at the big picture, how may horses that get into trouble are actually predictable products of their breeding, maybe not in being "bad" but in their suitability or lack thereof for certain tasks and ways of life.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
One of the many good things about the thoroughbred is that you can trace the pedigree back as TarrSteps did when tracing her horse back to St.Simon - this can't be said for many other breeds as on the whole they are of mixed breeding and their studs books do not go back that far.
Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Out of general interest, which ones?
I'm no great expert and I just haven't looked for many of the different breeds but Arabians can be traced back at least to the original imports and the Welsh Section B we have also traces right back with no gaps. People who are far more knowledgable than I am regarding Welsh Pony breeding have made a very good stab at her type, temperament and abilities based on looking at her bloodlines alone.
I'm no great expert and I just haven't looked for many of the different breeds but Arabians can be traced back at least to the original imports and the Welsh Section B we have also traces right back with no gaps. People who are far more knowledgable than I am regarding Welsh Pony breeding have made a very good stab at her type, temperament and abilities based on looking at her bloodlines alone.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
This is interesting.
This is my mare's sire http://www.horseit.com/heritagecoaststud/Vadeer.htm (Vadeer, arabian). Does anyone know if he has a reputation for passing on a certain temperament or is my mare 'special'?
The only other horse that I have met by Vadeer was bolder and more forward thinking than my mare but he was as sharp as a razor.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
Forgive my ignorance I was thinking more of the sport horse breeds ie Warmbloods of course I will be shot down!!. Purely out of interest Avonbrook how far do the Welsh Studbooks go back my father stood a Section D once Cottage Sunbeam or Sunlight I think that is the name.
As I said earlier there are not rules in horse breeding take the TB's a Derby Winner can breed with a classic winning mare and breed a snail on the track. In fact Shire horses have a very good jump in them and who know is if it was worked on! and they were bred purely for draught work.
pintoarabian
Well-Known Member
Faracat, I think that here is a good chance that something happened to your mare in her 7 years before she came into your possession that made her the way she is, rather than it being inherited. I have a mare that is similar, a worrier and nervous. I bred her and something did happen to her as a foal that scared her. She got on the wrong side of a fence to her dam and she was on a railway embankment, very distressed. The ensuing pandemonium to get her reunited with her dam and the terror that a train would come made her the way she is now. She is lovely to handle and will do anything you ask but she is still very wary of being caught. She is now 23 and we have reached an understanding with her that works for all of us. Once caught, she is compliant and well behaved but she never loses the look of suspicion in her eye. She has bred 5 foals and each of them is as people friendly as they come, mainly because we handle them from the minute they are born. She is very happy for us to do what we want with them. Neither her sire, dam or full sister are anything like her. I can say with 100% confidence that her problems are nurture not nature.
IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.
IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I'm in the same position with my girl. I know what she can cope with and she knows that she is OK with me (she's very wary of strangers) and I try to stay in her 'comfort zone'. It can be impossible though. We had a 6 month long epic drama to get her to walk calmly past the field with the scary Alpacas.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE
IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.[/QUOTE]
Very true
IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.[/QUOTE]
Very true
welshsporthorse
Well-Known Member
I havent read every single post on this thread tonight, but one thing we do need to be careful of now as breeders is the great availability of stallions we have now by chilled and frozen semen which people will use having seen pictures on the internet. We have to rely totally now ( if we dont visit them in the flesh or stallion shows) on the owners being completely honest about their stallions temperaments. All of our stallions bar one over the years have come to us in their twilight years and have not only proved themselves performance wize but have a great number of offspring which can be examined from the point of view of temperament and ease of handling but obviously the individual horses upbringing and handling will have an effect as well.