using violence towards horses

I think that it is the energy behind the smack and not the smack itself, the horse flies have been terrible where i am this year and i have been constantly
"smacking" my horses fairly hard to kill the little buggers (on their heads aswell), they know what i am doing and have absolutely no problem with it. I also have a swishy whip to keep the flies off when riding and this i can use all over there body and under the tummy and on their face with no problem, but if they are misbehaving for whatever reason and i smacked them their reaction would be greater even though the smack was no harder as my energy would be greater, if that makes sense!!

I also have seen too many horses beaten when they dont understand what for and it serves no purpose other than to confuse and frighten them
 
pastie2 said:
Did have a bolshy one, put him out with mares and foals and the mares sorted him out, came back in a lamb. Never had to lay a hand on him!
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And how did the mares 'sort him out'?

Watch horses in a herd and see how they control and discipline, it is with teeth, feet and body language, the difference is, there is no anger.

Sensible use of a stick is not violence, it is an aid, but any striking of a horse when the person doing the striking is cross or angry is violence. There is never a justifiable reason to strike out in anger at an animal and if a person can't keep their anger in check when handling horses, then they should not be handling horses.
 
NeilM said:
And how did the mares 'sort him out'?

Watch horses in a herd and see how they control and discipline, it is with teeth, feet and body language, the difference is, there is no anger.

Sensible use of a stick is not violence, it is an aid, but any striking of a horse when the person doing the striking is cross or angry is violence. There is never a justifiable reason to strike out in anger at an animal and if a person can't keep their anger in check when handling horses, then they should not be handling horses.
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Well said NeilM, totally agree.
 
What's the difference between "naughty" and "truly naughty"? In my opinion, "naughty" is in the eye of the beholder - it is simply behaviour we don't like. Perhaps "truly naughty" is behaviour that affronts, hurts or frightens us, whereas "naughty" merely annoys us. Anyway, I find it's best to deal with all these unwanted behaviours as something to be de-trained, using punishment/correction if necessary - though sometimes one can anticipate a problem and teach an alternative, desired behaviour by positive means bypassing whatever is causing the horse to behave badly.

I'm not against correction, or for that matter calling it punishment, but only if it is done well - fair, measured, timely and without anger. Immediate consequences are best; anything else is a probably counterproductive and/or a waste of time. If someone has to correct or scold their horse repeatedly for the same sort of "naughtiness", surely it means their correction can't be very effective? In my view, shouting is a sign of failure too; invariably good horsemen are quiet, in both senses of the word.

narkymare said:
I do not agree with whacking 10 minutes after hes been naughty (horse doesnt know why) - or doing it out of temper - but to discipline immediately and appropriateley is acceptable i think
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Absolutely, but would add that even 10 seconds is far too late because, by that time, the horse already has his mind on something else. Such late punishment is liable simply to confuse and upset the horse, and one may even end up punishing a behaviour that isn't original offending one. Some trainers have recommended a 3 second limit for correction. I would say 1 second is even better, and immediate the best - if you can do that.

I find it helps to keep personal feelings out of it. Obviously that's hard when your horse has just done something scary or dangerous, and especially hard if the behaviour was directed towards you. It's only natural to take it personally. I try to avoid that and find that dealing with behaviour issues dispassionately gets better results. It also means you stay calmer.

This works the other way too. In one sense, the horse does indeed have to know "who is boss" - but I would much rather teach good manners, detrain "naughtiness" and set boundaries by modifying behaviour than rely on the notion that the horse ought to know at all time how to behave with me, his "boss" - in other word, assume that he understands his personal responsibility towards me. I think that is a dangerous notion and that it is foolish to bank on the horse doing "the right thing" at all times and in all circumstances. It catches people out regularly, and when it inevitably happens the tendency is to blame the horse. (Maybe that's when he gets labelled "truly naughty"!) If the horse knows someone is "boss", why would he need to be "reminded" periodically of this? Maybe it simply means the horse's training wasn't as good or thorough as it could have been. Maybe some people actually like a bit of naughtiness, and the continual low-level fussing and scolding that this allows. Let's face it, we've all witnessed that kind of handling.

NeilM said:
Watch horses in a herd and see how they control and discipline, it is with teeth, feet and body language, the difference is, there is no anger.
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I beg to differ. I think horses show real negative emotion towards each other (and us) when they behave aggressively. The difference is they drop the anger again much more quickly than we can (usually). Horses can develop dislikes for other herd members, but in general they don't harbour grudges with quite the same ease as we do!

Sensible use of a stick is not violence, it is an aid, but any striking of a horse when the person doing the striking is cross or angry is violence. There is never a justifiable reason to strike out in anger at an animal and if a person can't keep their anger in check when handling horses, then they should not be handling horses.
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I couldn't agree more, NeilM.
 
I have always said ti is the shock of the correction not the "pain" of a smack that does the trick.Clearly remember feeling "OMG,I go smacked-****" feeling as a child,but never any pain.

A smack as a correction is not violence-it's a correction they understand.
It is a funny tool though,with some over using it and others too afraid of being cruel to ever use it!
Much better to smack when needed then ruin the horse.

Hitting in anger or multiple times is a different matter and should never happen.
 
There is a difference between giving your horse a sharp smack to reinforce an aid or to stop an unacceptable habit forming, such as kicking or biting, and giving a horse a totally unnecessary beating. They are animals - you can’t sit them on the naughty step and have a conversation with them explaining what is right and wrong!

I would never use or condone violence! However when you are dealing with such large animals they need to respect you and submit to you.

I have often found that the most dangerous and badly behaved horses belong to lackadaisical women, who never smack, get cross, or become assertive with their horse if it does something unacceptable!
 
I don't want to start a mutual admiration society here, but fburton that is a brilliant post.

As for the time elapsed between transgression and correction, again, look at a herd, any transgression is corrected immediately, whether that is by a tail flick or flat ears or a pair of heels in the ribs, the timing is always the same.
 
I link violence with pain and I don't think I have ever hurt a horse, giving a horse a quick smack on it's bum or shoulder doesn't hurt it in the least, it would jump at the noise more than anything else and if it has misbehaved I don't see anything wrong with this.

Horses in the field will bite and kick each other and cause actual damage that will hurt to sort out pecking orders and put youngsters in their place... we aren't really able to bite and kick so we improvise and horses aren't so stupid that they don't understand.

My mare can totally freeze up and plant when nappy and I can gently kick, nudge and tap with my whip till kingdom come, only when she gets a good whack on her bum will she listen to what I'm asking and get on with it.. does it hurt her, of course not, I would prefer not to have to do it but what else can I do - sit there for hours while she dozes off happily ignoring my kicks and taps?

Wil depend on the horse and their experience and the rider and their relationship, partly I think mine can ignore my as she has never been hurt or mistreated so likes to try and get the upper hand on occasion. My other horse who has had a hard owner would only ever need a decent kick as a reminder, never needs a tap with a whip.
 
JVB said:
Horses in the field will bite and kick each other and cause actual damage that will hurt to sort out pecking orders and put youngsters in their place... we aren't really able to bite and kick so we improvise and horses aren't so stupid that they don't understand.
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Given the above, it's probably a good thing horses don't regard us as other horses! Conversely, it's fortunate that we aren't obliged to deal with them in such purely reactive, brute force terms - we are intelligent enough (supposedly!) to employ a bit of forethought and "psychology".

My mare can totally freeze up and plant when nappy and I can gently kick, nudge and tap with my whip till kingdom come, only when she gets a good whack on her bum will she listen to what I'm asking and get on with it.. does it hurt her, of course not, I would prefer not to have to do it but what else can I do - sit there for hours while she dozes off happily ignoring my kicks and taps?
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Yes, it's just as easy to underdo correction/punishment as it is to overdo it. Then the horse quickly comes to ignore your correction or signal, so that you end up having to use more intense force to achieve the desired result. Punishing effectively - not so hard as to create fear and resentment, not so wimpishly as to desensitize, and with impeccable timing - is a real skill. Exactly what's too hard or too soft of course depends on the individual, so that means being sure of (or judging, if it's an unfamiliar horse) the appropriate level to use.
 
As others say, it all depends really. What is Violence?

Some horses will respond to punishment, others will freak.

I think if you're using it to correct unwanted working behaviour, you have to be very certain that its being naughty rather than e.g. a lack of confidence, pain, not understanding etc. Its a very tough call to make and IMO you have to be very knowledgeable, and know the horse well to know the difference, which is why I think on the whole its safer to err on the side of non-violence.
 
Like kids, some horses never need a smack and others do.

Farra is very sensitive and rarely gets a smack or told off. With her when she has a problem she is better carefully worked through with rewards and not punished. That said, she is a good girl, rarely pushes her boundaries and now knows what she is permitted to do when around people.

Stinky - totally different - has the potential to be a bolshy little cob, very intelligent and will take the pee. He has been trained so loud noises have no effect on him (most of the time), no shouting is pointless. With him, I ask him once, then tell him firmly and the third time, he will get a sharp tap. He rarely gets to stage three. When he does well, he is rewarded and I prefer to train by reward rather than punishment whenever I can.

That said, this weekend, he was tied up as we were getting the trailer ready to go to a show, and having a tantrum - half rearing and refusing to stand still. He knows his job - he has been out showing since two, and this was a typical naughty six year old. He was asked to stand, and then received one sharp slap on the backside as he half reared. Immediately stopped the misbehaviour and stood nicely - he was just seeing what he could get away with.

What I disagree with is anger and discipline. I have on many occasions gritted my teeth, imagined putting them in a pie but have backed off and took a breath and moment to calm down. I have once hit a horse in anger and it was not right to do and honestly did neither of us any good. I also will only punish if I can do it on the moment they do wrong or again it is a wasted thing to do.
 
Theresa_F said:
Like kids, some horses never need a smack and others do.

Farra is very sensitive and rarely gets a smack or told off. With her when she has a problem she is better carefully worked through with rewards and not punished. That said, she is a good girl, rarely pushes her boundaries and now knows what she is permitted to do when around people.

Stinky - totally different - has the potential to be a bolshy little cob, very intelligent and will take the pee. He has been trained so loud noises have no effect on him (most of the time), no shouting is pointless. With him, I ask him once, then tell him firmly and the third time, he will get a sharp tap. He rarely gets to stage three. When he does well, he is rewarded and I prefer to train by reward rather than punishment whenever I can.

That said, this weekend, he was tied up as we were getting the trailer ready to go to a show, and having a tantrum - half rearing and refusing to stand still. He knows his job - he has been out showing since two, and this was a typical naughty six year old. He was asked to stand, and then received one sharp slap on the backside as he half reared. Immediately stopped the misbehaviour and stood nicely - he was just seeing what he could get away with.

What I disagree with is anger and discipline. I have on many occasions gritted my teeth, imagined putting them in a pie but have backed off and took a breath and moment to calm down. I have once hit a horse in anger and it was not right to do and honestly did neither of us any good. I also will only punish if I can do it on the moment they do wrong or again it is a wasted thing to do.
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totally agree - with horses, dogs or children - if you are discipling out of anger you are wrong, if you cannot reprimand immediateley the poor horse has no idea why you are doing it so let it go - if its immediate I see nothing but good in a short sharp slap on teh shoulder with a firm "no".
I bought my bolshy cob from an 18 year old who thought his rudeness and barginess was funny - its not, my horse once really nearly hurt himself very badly by pulling away from me and barging into another horses stable straight over a wheelbarrow and fork.
Yes he got a smack in his shoulder when he did that, its dangerous.
When i first got him last year he could only be led in a kemp collar - now i can lead him normally and he is a pleasure to be around
 
On the other hand, one of my fellow liveries hates me because i told her just what i thought of her.
Her pony pulled away from her and ran off.
She chased, caught it, and proceeded to kick it repeatedly in front of my very upset 11 year old daughter - that was disgusting and i told her so
 
narkymare said:
On the other hand, one of my fellow liveries hates me because i told her just what i thought of her.
Her pony pulled away from her and ran off.
She chased, caught it, and proceeded to kick it repeatedly in front of my very upset 11 year old daughter - that was disgusting and i told her so
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Shocking! That ought to be illegal - animal abuse and, quite possibly, child abuse too. :(
 
I never smack my horse if he stops at a fence, he is well behaved, if he stops its either because the stride was wrong, the fence came up unexpected (as in a JO) or something else, I know him he's not 'naughty' in that way. I hate seeing people towards fences, drop the reins just before the fence, horse stops and they smack it :mad

I was leading my sisters youngster this afternoon (15 months) who is quite boisterous and can be nippy. he doesn't get smacked either just a loud ' a a' (a la victoria stillwell) when he tries to bite. If he's boisterous he doesn't get smacked, but if he pushes sideways and hits into my nicely placed pointy elbow, well then thats what happens ;)
 
it did upset my daughter,
she had got quite close to this pony, she was paid by the owner to sometimes muck out, feed, bring in and lead out -
she had rode the pony and was genuineley upset when she saw said owner kicking the hell out of it
 
Well, interesting comments from you all. There is obviously a huge difference between violence and correction. Violence is unacceptable but correction, if done immediately within the 4-second window and not too hard (out of proportion) is acceptable, but some equines cannot tolerate even a small smack and will respond better to voice commands etc. My appaloosa tolerates smacks (without a smack he would be dangerous and quite literally try to walk all over you) but the little mare cannot even stand a raised voice or fast movements. Every horse / pony is different and it's about learning what they respond to.
I abhor people who punish minutes after the event, or after catching a horse that's run off. That teaches them to run away even more, how utterly futile!
 
hessy12 said:
Well, interesting comments from you all. There is obviously a huge difference between violence and correction. Violence is unacceptable but correction, if done immediately within the 4-second window and not too hard (out of proportion) is acceptable, but some equines cannot tolerate even a small smack and will respond better to voice commands etc. My appaloosa tolerates smacks (without a smack he would be dangerous and quite literally try to walk all over you) but the little mare cannot even stand a raised voice or fast movements. Every horse / pony is different and it's about learning what they respond to.
I abhor people who punish minutes after the event, or after catching a horse that's run off. That teaches them to run away even more, how utterly futile!
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Agree 100% - if you cannot scold immediately and not in temper then dont do it -
I too go in stages - , a sharp "no" followed by tug on lead rope and if still not behaving a short sharp whack on the shoulders.
After one year of ownership my "no" growl works fine - result !!!
 
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