Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
I thought this article was quite interesting about using packs of wild wolves to hunt deer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6310211.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6310211.stm
Using wolves to hunt deer
- Thread starter Ereiam_jh
- Start date
suestowford
Well-Known Member
But would they only be allowed out in twos?
And only if they carried a gun and promised not to bite the deer?
And only if they carried a gun and promised not to bite the deer?
endymion
Well-Known Member
Not read the article but there is a place up in Scotland which will be bringing back wolves soon. They will b semi-wild as they will b enclosed but within a very large area. I think it would good for Scotland as they have so much problems with deer (most of which have been propagated for shooting). However, I would be against having truly wild wolves as I think they would be heavily persecuted by farmers and cowboys wanting a potshot at something bigger for a change.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
I suspect it would lead to a lot of problems and conflict.
I wonder how ethically people would square deliberately releasing packs of 'dogs' in order to kill deer with the ban on hunting.
It seems to me that if the deer population is far too high then we should find some practical way of getting it right back down again and also of keeping it down.
Of course with a predator the remaining deer population would be far healthier. I wonder also what impact wolves would have on other species by for example taking out sick badgers and foxes.
This article in the Guardian talks about 'recreating a chain of rich native forests over its hills and glen'
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,,2002471,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
I wonder if you're right Endy that most of the deer have been bred for shooting. It seems to me that they are now just breeding naturally.
It would be intersting if and when they do release wolves in limited areas if they carried out a study on the effect it had on the ecosystem. I'm convinced it would be far ranging and beneficial.
I also suspect that the real problems would start not if they took out a few sheep but if they took out a child wandering in the woods (possibly wearing a red hood).
I wonder how ethically people would square deliberately releasing packs of 'dogs' in order to kill deer with the ban on hunting.
It seems to me that if the deer population is far too high then we should find some practical way of getting it right back down again and also of keeping it down.
Of course with a predator the remaining deer population would be far healthier. I wonder also what impact wolves would have on other species by for example taking out sick badgers and foxes.
This article in the Guardian talks about 'recreating a chain of rich native forests over its hills and glen'
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,,2002471,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
I wonder if you're right Endy that most of the deer have been bred for shooting. It seems to me that they are now just breeding naturally.
It would be intersting if and when they do release wolves in limited areas if they carried out a study on the effect it had on the ecosystem. I'm convinced it would be far ranging and beneficial.
I also suspect that the real problems would start not if they took out a few sheep but if they took out a child wandering in the woods (possibly wearing a red hood).
emma69
Well-Known Member
If the wolves were faced with a) having to stalk, chase down and kill a deer, or b) walk into the fast food restaurant known as a sheep field, wonder which they will pick...... The article also says that the cull was not economically effective - I know lots of people who will pay to hunt deer - surely this is more a case of poor marketing if they cannot manage to charge a fortune for people to hunt (with a pro escort if necessary to ensure kills are humane)
endymion
Well-Known Member
Yeah they are breeding naturally now but that wasn't always the case in some areas. There are also the introduced deer such as muntjac ect to consider.
If you look at the case of wolf introductions in America then they were very heavily persecuted. If people in this country think foxes pose a threat to lambs what are they gonna think about packs of wolves roaming free? You're right about the conflict. This is a small de-forested island, we don't have the land for them anymore, although I agree that it would be very beneficial.
As one of your previous posts pointed out wloves take large game which they chase for prolonged periods. Foxes (dont know about badgers) are not their preferred prey and taking out weak, sick animals won't really inpact the populations as these animals would die anyway.
I think there are far too many children in this country, wolf predation seems a reasonable control method to me :grin:
If you look at the case of wolf introductions in America then they were very heavily persecuted. If people in this country think foxes pose a threat to lambs what are they gonna think about packs of wolves roaming free? You're right about the conflict. This is a small de-forested island, we don't have the land for them anymore, although I agree that it would be very beneficial.
As one of your previous posts pointed out wloves take large game which they chase for prolonged periods. Foxes (dont know about badgers) are not their preferred prey and taking out weak, sick animals won't really inpact the populations as these animals would die anyway.
I think there are far too many children in this country, wolf predation seems a reasonable control method to me :grin:
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
"ak, sick animals won't really inpact the populations as these animals would die anyway. "
Ah well I don't quite agree with you there as these animals often linger for log periods spreading diseases and suffering hiorribly. Plenty of wolves might reduce suffering and increase animal health.
Ah well I don't quite agree with you there as these animals often linger for log periods spreading diseases and suffering hiorribly. Plenty of wolves might reduce suffering and increase animal health.
endymion
Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about welfare, I'm talking about populations. Native disease is a natural control and often the spread between animals reduces the population. Foxes (and perhaps badgers??) tend to retreat to coverts/setts to die and would be out of the way of predators anyway. I've got no problem with wolves eating anything they want but, unlike with deer, I don't think it would impact the fox population that much.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
In our hunter gatherer years we used to track deer to eat by following wolves! I'm glad they're being re-introduced! I'd love to visit them too! Wolves are amazing creatures!
Tia
Well-Known Member
The wolves which live on my farm aren't exactly "up" for long chases to catch a deer.....they much prefer to kill my neighbours calves and sheep. For wolves to catch and pull down a deer, they have to coordinate with one another and as they are often solitary hunters, deer are too big for them to attack alone.
We have a reasonable sized pack on our farm, there is around 6 living here, however almost every farm in the area has a pack somewhere on their land and certainly on our farm, their usual food is groundhogs, chipmunks and rabbits.
The wolves around this area are just little brush wolves but they are very cocky animals and will come very close to houses and we often find one loitering in our barnyard. We did have a Timberwolf living somewhere around, it was HUGE!! But they are generally very shy wolves and you rarely see them around in the day, whereas the Brush Wolves are around the whole time. We shoot Brush wolves and coyotes now - they are a real nuisance to not only the animals but also a threat to the safety of my little daughter and her friends.
I can't see the idea taking off. Britain is too small a country and already has enough trouble with foxes that they don't need to introduce yet another scavenger.........in my opinion.
We have a reasonable sized pack on our farm, there is around 6 living here, however almost every farm in the area has a pack somewhere on their land and certainly on our farm, their usual food is groundhogs, chipmunks and rabbits.
The wolves around this area are just little brush wolves but they are very cocky animals and will come very close to houses and we often find one loitering in our barnyard. We did have a Timberwolf living somewhere around, it was HUGE!! But they are generally very shy wolves and you rarely see them around in the day, whereas the Brush Wolves are around the whole time. We shoot Brush wolves and coyotes now - they are a real nuisance to not only the animals but also a threat to the safety of my little daughter and her friends.
I can't see the idea taking off. Britain is too small a country and already has enough trouble with foxes that they don't need to introduce yet another scavenger.........in my opinion.
suebingham
Well-Known Member
We've got Mexican Gray Wolves here (medium sized) but have to agree with Tia -- they seem to be much fonder of ranchers' cattle rather than exerting themselves too much on wild game. Unlike you folks in the UK, we don't have a lot of sheep here but I'm thinkin' they would be the answer to a wolf's prayer. A couple years ago, there was one loner a little north of here who'd found himself a sweet deal taking down miniature horses. Kinda grim, really.
polaris
Well-Known Member
Pity.......I have a wolfhound1 Nice to see them become useful again!
Britain is far too small for the reintroduction in my opinion!
Britain is far too small for the reintroduction in my opinion!
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Interesting you two say they don't move much when hunting (take easy prey rather than hunt wild deer/moose what have you), OH's friends dad has not long moved to Canada, they had a couple of wolves come up close looking like they were going to attack the yard dogs, he got his rifle and when the door clicked they were gone in a flash, he phoned the neighbouring farmer(5miles away) as they were headed that way and as the neighbouring farmer came off of the phone they were going through his fields, some ground to cover in such a small space of time.
Realistically though, how much of the Scottish highlands is farmed?
Realistically though, how much of the Scottish highlands is farmed?
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
It would be fantastic following a pack of wolves while they hunted deer.
To me the whole process of dogs/wolves hunting their prey is fascinating to watch.
The wolves preying on sheep might be a sticking point, but a few hundred thousand deer getting torn apart by wild packs of wolves would definitely be a plus from an environmental/ecological point of view.
Release the hounds/wolves.
To me the whole process of dogs/wolves hunting their prey is fascinating to watch.
The wolves preying on sheep might be a sticking point, but a few hundred thousand deer getting torn apart by wild packs of wolves would definitely be a plus from an environmental/ecological point of view.
Release the hounds/wolves.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Interesting that they are allowing a pack of wolves to 'tear deer from limb to limb' yet banned fox hunting.... :smirk:
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
It does seem a little strange, especially as they are talking about hundreds of thousands of deer.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Hmm...surely a marksman is a much more humane way :smirk:
endymion
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find fox hunting is banned because it is an artificial and unnecessary cruelty whereas wolf hunts are natural and sustain predators. But, as you rightly point out wolves, the ancestors of dogs tear their prey limb from limb, just as foxhounds do.
The Highlands are not as desolate as you may think and they're not that big either, it wouldn't be long before they spread, especially as there are so many deer.
The Highlands are not as desolate as you may think and they're not that big either, it wouldn't be long before they spread, especially as there are so many deer.
endymion
Well-Known Member
Giles, on one hand you demonise foxes for damaging farm stock, on the other you want wolves back even though people on this thread have given you first hand knowledge which all suggests that wolves would be a major threat!
You may be surprised to know that I am fascinated by the hunting strategies of the African Wild Dog, their co-ordination and team work outshine that of the wolf (in my oh so humble) and they seem to have an almost telepathic gift for knowing what they other pack members are doing. It's a wonder of nature watching natural predators and prey pit their skills against each other. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it but I find it intriguing. Somehow watching a bunch of people on horses
with dogs chasing after a fox to get their kicks doesn't do the same for me.
You may be surprised to know that I am fascinated by the hunting strategies of the African Wild Dog, their co-ordination and team work outshine that of the wolf (in my oh so humble) and they seem to have an almost telepathic gift for knowing what they other pack members are doing. It's a wonder of nature watching natural predators and prey pit their skills against each other. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it but I find it intriguing. Somehow watching a bunch of people on horses
with dogs chasing after a fox to get their kicks doesn't do the same for me.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
Fairy Nuff endy. Actually I'm not sure I want wolves back.
I think there would be pros and cons.
I think we have to accept that if we do re introduce them then we would be responsible for many thousands of deer getting torn apart. Again there would be pros and cons to that. Certainly there would be welfare implications.
I love watching my dogs hunt and I don't see why I should have to stop them. What they do may not be totally necessary but it's certainly not cruel.
I bet you've enjoyed watching people and dogs hunt when you've been out sabbing. It sounds like quite a laugh to me.
PS do I demonise foxes for damaging farm stock? I think you might have got the wrong guy. Then again you do seem to have a habit of misrepresenting what I say.
I think there would be pros and cons.
I think we have to accept that if we do re introduce them then we would be responsible for many thousands of deer getting torn apart. Again there would be pros and cons to that. Certainly there would be welfare implications.
I love watching my dogs hunt and I don't see why I should have to stop them. What they do may not be totally necessary but it's certainly not cruel.
I bet you've enjoyed watching people and dogs hunt when you've been out sabbing. It sounds like quite a laugh to me.
PS do I demonise foxes for damaging farm stock? I think you might have got the wrong guy. Then again you do seem to have a habit of misrepresenting what I say.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Only when you think of the size of a deer against 5 wolves and the size of a fox against say 12 couple(24) of hounds -the other 4 couple are lazy sods! ;-) its slightly different don't you think?
Foxes don't get torn limb from limb either Endy...another myth!
Foxes don't get torn limb from limb either Endy...another myth!
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
I'd have thought there's very little doubt that the deer would suffer more than the fox. I'd also have thought that seeing as there are no wolves now, those people who introduced them would be morally responsible for that suffering.
I still think it's a pretty cool idea though!
It'd be great to be able to watch the wolves hunting and catching deer.
I still think it's a pretty cool idea though!
It'd be great to be able to watch the wolves hunting and catching deer.
endymion
Well-Known Member
I disagree that I have a habit of it but I do concede that I generalise sometimes and most pro's always have foxes down as a major threat to lamb stocks.
There is also the welfare of the wolf to consider, you may respect it but others won't.
30 riders equals 60 eyes and ears to look for the fox/stag plus that of the hunt support. A pack of 20 purpose built hounds is an additional 40 eyes and ears and 20 senstive noses to search with. In addition to this you have to consider the (allegedly) superior intellect of the people who can plan ahead and strategise. This situation is so unatural because it's so heavily swung against the fox. This would never happen in nature.
I do a good bit of badger watching these days and often see the odd fox, and just sometimes I get to see a wild animal hunt the way it's supposed to be done and it's a wonderful experience, much more rewarding than hunting with hounds.
I enjoy meeting the hounds and having an excuse to have a wee dram at a ridiculously early hour when I'm out sabbing but thats about it. The rare occasions where I've had a clear view of hounds in pursuit of a fox made me feel deeply saddened.
There is also the welfare of the wolf to consider, you may respect it but others won't.
30 riders equals 60 eyes and ears to look for the fox/stag plus that of the hunt support. A pack of 20 purpose built hounds is an additional 40 eyes and ears and 20 senstive noses to search with. In addition to this you have to consider the (allegedly) superior intellect of the people who can plan ahead and strategise. This situation is so unatural because it's so heavily swung against the fox. This would never happen in nature.
I do a good bit of badger watching these days and often see the odd fox, and just sometimes I get to see a wild animal hunt the way it's supposed to be done and it's a wonderful experience, much more rewarding than hunting with hounds.
I enjoy meeting the hounds and having an excuse to have a wee dram at a ridiculously early hour when I'm out sabbing but thats about it. The rare occasions where I've had a clear view of hounds in pursuit of a fox made me feel deeply saddened.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
30 riders? Haha too busy drinking port and gossiping to notice foxes!
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
When I go out with my dogs I like to sit quietly in a wood or a field and observe them. Inevitably they start hunting although not in a way that I would consider cruel. They very very rarely actually catch anything so I can't see the harm in it.
I've not been fox hunting but when I've been beagling I'm always more pleased to see the hare escape than get caught.
I've not been fox hunting but when I've been beagling I'm always more pleased to see the hare escape than get caught.
endymion
Well-Known Member
Begs the question why the fox has to be involved then doesn't it?
endymion
Well-Known Member
I can't work you Giles.
Sometimes you seem like a nice enough bloke who has both good and bad things to say about hunting with hounds. Other times you vigorously defend hunting (such as comments on the NELS board).
I don't get it.
Sometimes you seem like a nice enough bloke who has both good and bad things to say about hunting with hounds. Other times you vigorously defend hunting (such as comments on the NELS board).
I don't get it.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
I don't understand your question. You already know the field don't go to see the fox in most cases. That has nothing to do with humane pest control.
endymion
Well-Known Member
I find it hard to believe that the entire field are there because they want to control foxes. They are there for the ride and the day out, thats it why it puzzles me why they are so against conversion to drag/bloodhounds.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
You're right 'they' probably aren't......I am!