Vaccinate or not vaccinate? Shetland ponies.

[Gloi]

I used to know an old farmer who bred Shires. He told me that when he was young, before they had vaccinations for tetanus, they used to lose a large number of their horses to it. Their farm was on clay land and there must have been a lot of tetanus in the soil. Their young horses would die of it at two or three years of age without any visible wounds to them. It was worked out in the end that what was happening was that when the horses shed their baby incisor teeth the tetanus toxin was getting in through the wounds in their gums as they grazed.

As we are still living in this area I make sure all mine are vaccinated and that I have a booster every 10 years too.

 

[joycec]

Moo in and abracadabra, some of us have been around horses in large numbers for a very long time, and when you can go through near on 50 years and never seen a case of tetanus despite being with horses both vaccinated and not you tend to realise it's not always necessary.

It's not a question of being neglectful. It's 20years since I've needed to call out the vet. I only see her when my mare goes to stud or when the foals are given their tetanus course.

I won't have a vet on the place when the foals are new born, I've seen friends lies foals to Rotovirus after the vet had been. I get the tetanus antitoxin from my vet and administer it myself. Stump is dipped in Dilute Iodine daily for a week.

The farrier opens foot abscesses - he does a better job. And after my young horse was returned with a cut hock a couple of years ago I wouldn't let a vet bandage my horses either.

Vets may have qualifications but there are times when experience trumps their training.

Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's PREVENTABLE.

 

[Tnavas]

Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's PREVENTABLE.

Tetanus is known to be prevalent in some areas and not in others. Vaccinating your horse is a matter of choice not necessarily irresponsible if you choose not to. How many of you vaccinate for strangles? Which is also a horrible disease and far more prevalent than tetanus.

I didn't get my first tetanus shot until in my teens, we didn't have measles, mumps and rubella vaccinations either. The only shots we got were Smallpox and Polio. In our teens we were TB tested and I needed the vaccination.

To date my mates never had a cut or open wound, she's 11 and been with me since she was 6months old.

If I had an accident prone horse I certainly would vaccinate.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's PREVENTABLE.

^ This.

Why anyone would advise that someone else should risk their horse dying in a truly horrific manner (full body convulsions that can break bones, unable to swallow, high temperature, high heart rate etc...) is just plain irresponsible. Maybe Tnavas is lucky because she/he lives in an area without much toxin in the soil, but how can they possibly know what the soil is like in the area that the many different readers of this thread have?

The main message of this thread to the multiple readers must be a responsible one and that is always get in touch with your Vet to vaccinate for tetanus. If you are in a very low risk area and you are one of the few where you don't need to vaccinate, I have no doubt that your Vet would know and tell you.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Mother of chickens, If you Google NEUROTOXIN IN HORSE VACCINE, I read on that page ,HORSE VACCINATION PROTOCOL DEPAOLO ,EQUINE CONCEPTS , sorry I am not sure how
to do a link, if you have time may be you could take a look,and tell me is the information on there all out of date, thanks.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

The site you looked at is an American one and many of the vaccines in his list aren't in use here. Also he's not anti vaccination but overvaccination and has an agenda of his own.
It is true that there may not be an absolute need to keep vaccinating with certain vaccines-some have a longer lasting effect than others. There's no way of really evaluating this for every animal-although using titres for certain conditions is becoming more popular where the data is available to do it. With the tetanus vaccine being so widely used and for so long, it's seems to me that it's better to keep doing it than not. Don't forget that many drugs contain or are made up of something that in its pure form or natural state are harmful, but they do undergo rigorous safety testing. Some members of the population will always react to a drug/vaccine, that's just biology but for example, a couple of days of bute to cover some muscle stiffness is preferable to the rigid muscular paralysis and agony that is tetanus IMO.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Tnavas, I'm actually quite shocked by the fundamental lack of medical understanding that you demonstrate in your posts in this thread.

I want to thank MOC for looking into Shergar's link and for her sensible answer.

 

[ann-jen]

There was a lot of teething problems with the strangles vaccine, mainly that it didn't seem to stand up to its shelf life and therefore it was withdrawn from the market over here for a lot of years while this was addressed. It has recently come back on the market, but as I understand it, it only lessens the chances of abscessation of the lymph nodes. Strangles is a whole different problem to tetanus, and a much harder problem to control for various reasons ..... but with the exception of a small number of cases its rarely fatal..... whereas tetanus is the complete opposite where only a small number of cases that actually survive! The two problems are hardly comparable really!

 

[Tnavas]

Tnavas, I'm actually quite shocked by the fundamental lack of medical understanding that you demonstrate in your posts in this thread.

I want to thank MOC for looking into Shergar's link and for her sensible answer.

In what way?. I understand perfectly well what tetanus is and that horses because of their inclination to cut themselves makes them vulnerable. Tetanus has areas where it is more prevalent and areas where there are few or no recorded cases.

I expect if I were in an area where it is prevalent I'd vaccinate. All mine have had a course at sometime in their lives. I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. My vets happy with that. When the youngster had his wolf teeth out he had a booster, but nothing since. When he cut his leg I phoned the vet to get permission for a booster which I gave him.

 

[abracadabra]

Moo in and abracadabra, some of us have been around horses in large numbers for a very long time, and when you can go through near on 50 years and never seen a case of tetanus despite being with horses both vaccinated and not you tend to realise it's not always necessary.

It's not a question of being neglectful. It's 20years since I've needed to call out the vet. (...)
Vets may have qualifications but there are times when experience trumps their training.

Well bless your heart. If you're trying to pull the 'I've got more experience that you and been around a long time-card' you should really be sure that a.) you have got more experience, and b.) that someone else hasn't been around longer. Not to mention being around a long time doesn't mean you know jack. It just means you've been around a long time.

Carry on giving dangerous advice on the interwebz though. Can't believe the stuff you're spouting tbh. I do think you're being neglectful from what you said in this thread actually, I'm sure you know better than all the vets, rolls eyes...god help your horses...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You compare completely incomparable vaccinations and diseases in your posts.

 

[Tnavas]

There was a lot of teething problems with the strangles vaccine, mainly that it didn't seem to stand up to its shelf life and therefore it was withdrawn from the market over here for a lot of years while this was addressed. It has recently come back on the market, but as I understand it, it only lessens the chances of abscessation of the lymph nodes. Strangles is a whole different problem to tetanus, and a much harder problem to control for various reasons ..... but with the exception of a small number of cases its rarely fatal..... whereas tetanus is the complete opposite where only a small number of cases that actually survive! The two problems are hardly comparable really!

It's used for the racehorses and studs here. While it may not stop the disease it certainly reduces the illness. We also have strict quarantine rules, my horses were quarantined for three months when the horse at the front of the block came down with it. It is controllable, just like Australia whipped out Equine Flu. UK could rid itself of both if it followed Australia's example.

 

[Tnavas]

You compare completely incomparable vaccinations and diseases in your posts.

That hardly warrens such a comment!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It certainly does, as it demonstrates a lack of medical understanding perfectly.

Vaccinating for infectious diseases and something like tetanus, which is not infectious is completely different. There is no 'group/herd immunity' (where the majority of the population being vaccinated protects the unvaccinated to some degree) with tetanus and the only way to protect a specific animal is to vaccinate that specific animal.

AJ has stated one reason why Strangles and Tetanus are not comparable.

I also stand by my comment that some of your posts are very irresponsible and I hope that any novice owner reading this thread isn't encouraged to think that they shouldn't consider tetanus as a health risk.

 

[Tnavas]

At no time have i said don't vaccinate - just said that I personally dont!

I know quite well thankyou the difference between infectious diseases and non infectious. While people are spouting irresponsible try getting Strangles under control - if people were not so selfish as to take horses out to shows with runny noses then we might get it sorted once and for all. I very nearly lost a horse many years ago when my lovely horse contracted it from another horse out hunting.

You might now like to go back and harrass all the others that said they don't vaccinate for tetanus.

I live in an area that rarely ever has any tetanus cases - therefore I don't vaccinate.

 

[joycec]

Tnavas you really are ignorant about this. Strangles is a disease which in most horses produces minor cold symptoms, some horses major cold symptoms and a small minority of cases major complications and an even smaller number of cases death.

Tetanus is a disease which kills the vast majority of horses which develop symptoms and is a horrible, choking death.

I am absolutely shocked that you would advocate waiting to see if a horse in your area dies, rather than use a safe and hugely effective vaccine.

You really are very, very irresponsible to post such stuff.

Please owners, ask your vet. I doubt if you'll find one in the whole country who wouldn't recommend vaccination unless there was another medical reason for the horse not to have it.

 

[joycec]

I live in an area that rarely ever has any tetanus cases - therefore I don't vaccinate.

Rarely ever? Good God, you can't even write 'never' and yet you don't vaccinate!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Hell, I live in an area with hardly any cases of tetanus, but it's not because there isn't tetanus in the soil (there is) it's because the vast majority of owners vaccinate for it.

I have responded to Bonny's posts too on this subject (if you look back) so you haven't been singled out. I'm sorry that you feel harassed, but normally you give very sensible advice on this forum and I was very surprised that you gave bad advice on this thread.

 

[Moomin1]

I actually am lost for words.

 

[Moomin1]

Hell, I live in an area with hardly any cases of tetanus, but it's not because there isn't tetanus in the soil (there is) it's because the vast majority of owners vaccinate for it.

I have responded to Bonny's posts too on this subject (if you look back) so you haven't been singled out. I'm sorry that you feel harassed, but normally you give very sensible advice on this forum and I was very surprised that you gave bad advice on this thread.

This.

 

[Tnavas]

Instead of having a go at me re read my posts. ALL mine have had a course, my broodmare had hers before her first foal and boosters 6 weeks before her foals were due.

The youngsters have all had a course.

I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. Vet agrees with me it's not necessary that the protection lasts a long time.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Instead of having a go at me re read my posts. ALL mine have had a course, my broodmare had hers before her first foal and boosters 6 weeks before her foals were due.

The youngsters have all had a course.

I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. Vet agrees with me it's not necessary that the protection lasts a long time.

I think it has already been explained that the vaccine for tetanus and which requires regular boosters is not the same as the serum used for foals and sometimes for occasions when an animal has a wound likely to be infected.
If a vet is allowing clients to elect when and what to use , this would not fit with UK vet practice. Vets here always oversee an injection and they use the vaccine in accordance with manufacturer and industry guidelines [ which may be slightly different], they sign the passport and the vaccine code label is put in the entry alongside the signature.
There is no need to vaccinate for tetanus annually, the vaccines used in the UK are either 2 or 3years. If you do not want to cover your horses that is up to you, but you seem to be 100 % certain that they are covered. They have all had the initial course, it seems madness to risk losing cover. It's science, we tend to avoid expressions like "for a long" time when "for two years" is recommended [when the drug is designed for that]..

 

[Tnavas]

Vets here allow their experienced clients to administer Tetanus injections. Big studs have them in quantity as during the foaling season the foals tend not to adhere to surgery hours.

Often vet gives the first injection, fills out the Vaccination card, sticks the label on it and signs. The subsequent injections are handed over along with dates to be given. On completion of the course the card, along with the stickers from the vaccinations is taken into the vets and signed.

I guess we aren't quite as strict here, vets having a respect for experienced peoples ability to give injections

We are also able to give antibiotic injections as well.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I guess we aren't quite as strict here, vets having a respect for experienced peoples ability to give injections

We are also able to give antibiotic injections as well.

Lay people can give I/M injections, such as tetanus and antibiotics, here in the UK too. Being POM medicines, the vet has to authorise the use first, and dispense them with suitable instructions to a competent party. However, no vet should sign any vaccination record unless they have administered, or overseen, the injections themselves. To do so, would risk serious disciplinary action if found out.

I have continued giving tetanus booster injections to my retired home kept horses and ponies, who no longer need an up to date flu/tet certificate for competition purposes. The boosters are done at a minimum of two yearly intervals for animals with a complete initial course.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Lay people can give I/M injections, such as tetanus and antibiotics, here in the UK too. Being POM medicines, the vet has to authorise the use first, and dispense them with suitable instructions to a competent party. However, no vet should sign any vaccination record unless they have administered, or overseen, the injections themselves. To do so, would risk serious disciplinary action if found out.

I have continued giving tetanus booster injections to my retired home kept horses and ponies, who no longer need an up to date flu/tet certificate for competition purposes. The boosters are done at a minimum of two yearly intervals for animals with a complete initial course.

I would prefer to give my pony injections, but vets here do not encourage it, and when I was left some antibiotic the instructions were frankly over reactive, not what I had been trained to do, and I had to call for assistance, which would not have been required if jabbed in the neck. Same thing with other instructions, which were taken from a book, not one my boy had read though.
I think all vets who want to work with equines should do more practical experience, some are OK. but that is not good enough.

 

[Princess Rosie]

Having seen the horrific result of tetanus in my friends horse, I would always urge people to vaccinate against tetanus, it's a booster every two years which costs about £18 for two years cover. Tetanus can be very easily picked up from soil.

Having moved from Lancs, I would recommend Alistair from Oakhill vets at longridge, we were south west Preston and their call out charge was reasonable too. Alistair was amazing with our wee minis and very patient (one of ours is terrified of vets and can smell them a mile off!), they used to have a girl also who was amazing, think possibly Amanda?