minesadouble
Well-Known Member
Surely all dogs need protein, regardless of the source?
I'm not being facetious btw, I genuinely don't see how a dog, or any mammal for that matter, can thrive without protein from some source or another.
Vegan dogs ???
- Thread starter sarah.oxford
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I'm not being facetious btw, I genuinely don't see how a dog, or any mammal for that matter, can thrive without protein from some source or another.
Denali
Well-Known Member
It appears my dog is the rare breed who looked at me like “what the hell” when I tried vegetables as treats.
Dogs eat loads of things. It doesn’t mean it’s good for them. Sure carrots, green beans, cabbage (that made me laugh) won’t kill them, but they do need protein.
It was my understanding dogs fall into the carrion eater category so a vegan diet doesn’t make sense for me.
Some species of cats do eat fish. At the end of the day eating something doesn’t mean they are omnivores or carnivores. I knew a horse who ate chicken nuggets and had a cat that loved pop corn.
Dogs eat loads of things. It doesn’t mean it’s good for them. Sure carrots, green beans, cabbage (that made me laugh) won’t kill them, but they do need protein.
It was my understanding dogs fall into the carrion eater category so a vegan diet doesn’t make sense for me.
Some species of cats do eat fish. At the end of the day eating something doesn’t mean they are omnivores or carnivores. I knew a horse who ate chicken nuggets and had a cat that loved pop corn.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Ummmm, vegetarian does not mean vegetable only, it just means no meat.
Vegan doesn't mean just vegetables either it just means no animal products.
Lots of non animal products contain protein. Algae is up to 70% protein. Dogs need protein, is there any evidence that it absolutely has to be meat protein?
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Vegan doesn't mean just vegetables either it just means no animal products.
Lots of non animal products contain protein. Algae is up to 70% protein. Dogs need protein, is there any evidence that it absolutely has to be meat protein?
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
They might struggle to get sufficient taurine and L-carnitine from a plant based diet. Unless they supplement.
Why not just feed them meat?
Take a look inside a dog's mouth. The teeth give you a clue what they should be eating.
Why not just feed them meat?
Take a look inside a dog's mouth. The teeth give you a clue what they should be eating.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't know any vegetarians who have dogs, but I assume it's because they adore dogs but can't stomach the thought of other animals dying in order to feed one if it's not absolutely essential?
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meleeka
Well-Known Member
I know a dog that’s either vegetarian or vegan, I can’t remember which, because of the owners preference. It’s a labrador and looks trim and healthy, but I still don’t think it’s fair.
SAujla
Well-Known Member
I'm a vegetarian but Clover isn't. She has fish kibble from Bentleys and ostrich treats. I know she needs meat so that's what she gets. I very briefly looked up vegetarian dog food before I got her but it just didn't look right or healthy.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
All animals need protein, protein is found in many foods, not only in meat. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins and it’s getting the right combinations that is the tricky part, many beans, pulses and nuts provide adequate sources. I would no more feed my dogs exclusively vegan foods than I would feed horses (or any herbivore) roast beef.
shanti
Well-Known Member
I'm Vegan, my dogs are not because my husband is not, and he won't entertain the idea. My daughters are Vegan, their dog is Vegan and is extremely healthy and happy, she has yearly vet checks and blood tests, and her vet says she is one of the healthiest dogs he sees, and she is always a perfect weight. It can definitely be done, but, like anything, has to be done correctly.
Not wanting to sound like a 'crazy Vegan' but I detest when people say that its cruel to raise your kids Vegan, like, why??? How is it any different than raising them to eat meat? Either way you are still forcing your food choices on to them, so why is the Vegan option so criticized. The argument makes zero sense. Despite common belief, a proper Vegan diet is really healthy can meet all of your body's nutritional needs. I'm Vegan for the animals, AKA a junk food Vegan, so I am certainly not a poster child for a healthy diet, but I manage just fine and have never felt better if I am honest.
(I didn't raise my kids Vegan; they went Vegan after moving out of home and converted me)
Not wanting to sound like a 'crazy Vegan' but I detest when people say that its cruel to raise your kids Vegan, like, why??? How is it any different than raising them to eat meat? Either way you are still forcing your food choices on to them, so why is the Vegan option so criticized. The argument makes zero sense. Despite common belief, a proper Vegan diet is really healthy can meet all of your body's nutritional needs. I'm Vegan for the animals, AKA a junk food Vegan, so I am certainly not a poster child for a healthy diet, but I manage just fine and have never felt better if I am honest.
(I didn't raise my kids Vegan; they went Vegan after moving out of home and converted me)
shanti
Well-Known Member
Actually, dogs are omnivores. Their stomach and small intestines are the same make up as all other omnivores. Cats on the other hand are obligate carnivores and must have meat in their diet.
Again, the teeth argument always puzzles me lol. Human teeth are very different to a dogs or lions, so if you are using that as the sole justification to why dogs must eat meat then you are effectively saying that humans shouldn't be eating it.
Jenko109
Well-Known Member
For me I'm absolutely fine with children being given solely vegan food at home or in their lunch box.
What I am uncomfortable with, is the notion that a child is not allowed to try food that is not plant based.
So if a child attends a birthday party for instance, I dont like the idea that that child is not allowed to eat the birthday cake. I also do not like the expectation that an alternative should be offered. Everyone else is allowed the gooey chocolate cake, but that child either does not eat and or has to have something different.
I just think that in public you should let them be a child. Let them join in with their friends. Let them eat the McDonalds. Do not make them appear different.
If the lessons you have instilled growing up are done right, then they will likely end up plant based by choice eventually anyway and not at the expense of their childhood.
shanti
Well-Known Member
Sorry to OP for going off topic.
But there are so many things this could apply to.
What about religious or cultural practices?
Many people raise their children in religious households where their children are not allowed to participate in/be included in mainstream activities like birthdays and Christmas, even sleepovers.
Many cultures follow practices and wear clothing which are not mainstream and are different to western cultures.
People who choose to homeschool. Are they not denying their children the right to go to school and be the same as mainstream society?
People who refuse to let their children have a mobile phone. But all their friends have one, how is that fair?
I could go on, but I will stop derailing this thread even further
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
"In addition to these clinical differences in dogs with diet-associated DCM, it was identified early on that these dogs were eating diets with similar properties. Research has now shown that these diets (often termed “non-traditional diets”) are commonly grain-free commercial dry diets that contain pulses and, to a lesser extent, potatoes or sweet potatoes. Pulses are peas, lentils, chickpeas, and dry beans. While pulses are part of the legume family, soy (another legume) has not been associated with this problem. Some research suggests that peas may be most associated with this form of DCM, but this may just reflect the fact that peas are used more commonly in dog foods compared to other pulses. In 2017, 51% of dry dog foods contained peas, while 23% contained chickpeas, and 14% contained lentils. So, while pulses – and especially peas – seem to be the most likely culprits, we have a lot more to learn about their effects on dogs eating diets high in these ingredients (for example, concentration in the diet, effects of processing, and effects of different fractions of peas such as whole peas, pea protein, pea fiber, etc).
Many have linked diet-associated DCM with grain-free diets. In fact, it appears to be more closely associated with diets containing pulses, rather than with the presence or absence of grains in a diet. In the past, it was primarily grain-free diets that included high levels of pulses and potatoes as ingredients to replace grains, but now some grain-inclusive diets contain pulses and can be associated with DCM as well. Most dogs with diet-associated DCM have been eating non-traditional diets for over one year (sometimes many years), so DCM does not seem to develop immediately after eating these diets and not every dog that eats these diets develops heart problems."
vetnutrition.tufts.edu
Many have linked diet-associated DCM with grain-free diets. In fact, it appears to be more closely associated with diets containing pulses, rather than with the presence or absence of grains in a diet. In the past, it was primarily grain-free diets that included high levels of pulses and potatoes as ingredients to replace grains, but now some grain-inclusive diets contain pulses and can be associated with DCM as well. Most dogs with diet-associated DCM have been eating non-traditional diets for over one year (sometimes many years), so DCM does not seem to develop immediately after eating these diets and not every dog that eats these diets develops heart problems."
Nutrition | Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Is My Dog a Carnivore or an Omnivore? - My Pet Nutritionist
The long debated question in the world of canines; are dogs carnivores, or omnivores? Here at My Pet Nutritionist, we are ready to put the somewhat controversial question to bed! There may be some fine lines between types of carnivore, and omnivores, so read carefully! Carnivores vs Omnivores...
mypetnutritionist.com
shanti
Well-Known Member
I could post links to multiple scientific and veterinary articles and studies which claim the exact opposite, I have 6 in open tabs right now. But It's all just echo chamber stuff on both sides really.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Those aren't in the list of essential amino acids that mammals can't make for themselves. In theory, provided there are enough other good quality amino acids of the right type in the diet, the body manufactures taurine and carnetine for itself.
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit busy at the minute. Google taurine deficiency associated with dilated cardiomyopathy.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
No one has answered this? How can the dog Annette4 be alive if it cannot eat any protein?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
That doesn't change the fact that, if I've understood mammal nutrition correctly, if the dog has the correct diet with methionine and ceistine then it's perfectly possible for them to make their own taurine unless they have some kind of abnormality.
There are only 9 amino acids out of 20 that mammals can't manufacture for themselves. In theory, if the diet contains sufficient good quality sources of the other 11, then the body makes what it needs.
Vegans and vegetarians need to be darned sure they're feeding the right stuff but I don't see why they shouldn't keep a dog on a vegan diet if they love dogs but don't want the products of dead animals in their homes.
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meleeka
Well-Known Member
Nobody has yet mentioned that dogs just like the taste of meat. I had a friend who was vegan and she used to actually salivate if there was meat. She didn’t eat it for moral reasons, but her mind still told her it was delicious.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
After seeing my friend's dog have to be trained out of liking the taste of other dog's shit, I'm not sure I'd pay a lot of attention to that
As long as the dog is willingly eating what they're offered, does it matter if they'd prefer meat/ ice cream/ a big mac? I don't know why I'm invested in this discussion, I don't have a dog and don't want one. It's about trying to restrict other people's reasonable choices for their own dogs, In think.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
I get this, sort of, from a nutritional perspective but loving dogs surely requires a knowledge of, and respect for what they are: predators, meat eaters? ...To determine that you should have an animal but deny it's fundamental nature for your own satisfaction seems at least slightly narcissistic to me and strangely dystopian. I am sure people will soon find a way of feeding cats without animal protein. What next...vegan crocodiles?!!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
quizzie
Well-Known Member
Dogs can….cats can’t in sufficient quantities …..different species have different abilities to manufacture various proteins .
The dog will be allergic to one or more specific proteins, not protein in general.
"In addition to these clinical differences in dogs with diet-associated DCM, it was identified early on that these dogs were eating diets with similar properties. Research has now shown that these diets (often termed “non-traditional diets”) are commonly grain-free commercial dry diets that contain pulses and, to a lesser extent, potatoes or sweet potatoes. Pulses are peas, lentils, chickpeas, and dry beans. While pulses are part of the legume family, soy (another legume) has not been associated with this problem. Some research suggests that peas may be most associated with this form of DCM, but this may just reflect the fact that peas are used more commonly in dog foods compared to other pulses. In 2017, 51% of dry dog foods contained peas, while 23% contained chickpeas, and 14% contained lentils. So, while pulses – and especially peas – seem to be the most likely culprits, we have a lot more to learn about their effects on dogs eating diets high in these ingredients (for example, concentration in the diet, effects of processing, and effects of different fractions of peas such as whole peas, pea protein, pea fiber, etc).
Many have linked diet-associated DCM with grain-free diets. In fact, it appears to be more closely associated with diets containing pulses, rather than with the presence or absence of grains in a diet. In the past, it was primarily grain-free diets that included high levels of pulses and potatoes as ingredients to replace grains, but now some grain-inclusive diets contain pulses and can be associated with DCM as well. Most dogs with diet-associated DCM have been eating non-traditional diets for over one year (sometimes many years), so DCM does not seem to develop immediately after eating these diets and not every dog that eats these diets develops heart problems."
Nutrition | Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
Bearing this in mind, I find it interesting that equine nutritionists are promoting pea and potato protein for horses ?
palo1
Well-Known Member
No, I haven't remotely forgotten that. Whilst sitting on, riding and 'using' a horse for our own pleasure/satisfaction is not true to a horse's nature either, and the ways we may choose to keep them can also be seen as narcissistic and dystopian, we are a very long way down the road of that partnership. We should be considering how to move away from human centred moralities though that is a gordion knot of its own!! There are many, many questions about our relationship with animals that we should ask but perhaps it isn't appropriate to add new narcissims (such as indulging a vegan morality on a naturally carnivorous animal) to our already troubled state. It is, or should be, impossible, in my view, to try to remove ourselves from the animal world - we are absolutely part of that world - we need to work towards much better understanding of 'natural' and have greater respect for that, without losing our connection. Just a tad tricky...!!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I just keep on and on coming back to the same question in my head.
If the vegan/vegetarian dogs are happy and vet-checked healthy and eating their food with every sign of enjoyment, then what on earth is wrong with it?
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If the vegan/vegetarian dogs are happy and vet-checked healthy and eating their food with every sign of enjoyment, then what on earth is wrong with it?
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shanti
Well-Known Member
Dog biscuits have very little meat in them if any. Dog food companies have been using plant based protein for years.
Not aimed at you Clodagh, but I just want to make it clear that I don't give a rats a$$ what people feed their animals as long as they are healthy but you can't just deny facts to justify your argument.
Dog's are not obligate carnivores, that's just fact. They are omnivores. My daughter is 3 months off completing her vet tec degree and one of the first things they learn is this.
It has to be done properly and it can definitely go wrong if it's not, but dogs can actually thrive on a plant based diet.
Id rather see a dog eating a well balanced Vegan diet than some of the commercial tinned dog food around
quizzie
Well-Known Member
....with things like diet related DCM, as linked to by skinnydipper, the dog will appear fine to all external tests until it gets quite a long way down the path of heart failure.
They are now finding that they can see early signs of change in the cardiac structure with advanced imaging way before clinical signs show.
It comes back to individual suspectibility.....some will be fine, and stay fine......some will appear fine externally, but their systems will be operating at the limit, and will at some point tip over into clinical disease...... some will not do well on restricted diets.
...same as people!
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
I'm vegetarian but my dog eats meat. If I had children I wouldn't bring them up as vegetarian either.
ArklePig
Well-Known Member
I agree with you re vegan kids totally. I used to be vegetarian and now eat fish for medical reasons (started trialling it and it is helping so here we are). I'm obviously a complete hypocrite but I'd rather have been raised veggie/Vegan and then given the choice to eat meat. It turns me the amount of meat I've eaten in my life time and I'd rather have made a fully informed decision to eat meat as an adult rather than it being the default.