Verbal horse loan - owners rights?? help plz!

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arabellas dream

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I'm in a situation I never even dreamed I'd be in and I haven't a clue what steps to take to try and solve it!

After 4 years of riding lessons my parents brought my first pony, who I enjoyed many years of pony club fun, competitions, and just an overwelming love and mutual respect with. When I moved onto a bigger horse as I got older I couldn't sell my first mare and so put her to a friends arab to create the most stunning foal! Every bit as gorgeous as his mum!

Time went by and life progressed with boyfriends and babies and I no longer had enough time to put into my 2 ponies (mum n son), so I decided to put them out on loan until my circumstance improved and I had more time. I advertised and found suitable people to loan my ponies, and felt a verbal agreement was respectful enough. They took them to their approved yards and I still visited.

My mare came back to me after a year and I kept her until she passed two years ago aged 32 years. But my gelding is still out on loan 9 years later, and although I saw him two weeks ago with the loaner (who's daughter is now 21 and has discovered life as I did at that age) and despite them telling me that he's dangerous and unpredictable amongst other things and not riding him much due to this, they are now ignoring my txts and phone calls, I think due to the fact that I said I had more time now and would like to see him more.

My problem is I don't know where I stand as they have loaned him for 9 years, with only a verbal agreement in place. I'm scared stiff that they'll be intitled to keep him and I'll lose my precious baby boy!!! This was never the plan and I always wanted to have him back when my youngest child started school!! Which she did in September 2010. What are my rights?? How do I get my boy back? Do I even still own him???!!!! OMG!!!

Any help will be very much appreciated and I now know I should have had a written agreement drawn up but up until now I thought we had a legal verbal agreement in place.
 
The passport is not proof of ownership of course...
Do you have any documentation relating to your horse at all?
 
The passport law wasn't brought into place until after the loan agreement and while I got my mares passport, I let the people who have loaned him get my geldings as they said it wasnt a problem. I have many photographs all through his life and even vets bills from when he was younger and had two sacoids but apart from that I have no documentation that I can remember as i bred him myself...
 
They have never bought him so he is still yours and I think they are ignoring you because they know this. If they thought he was theirs they would be kicking up. I would send them a letter, recorded delivery saying you will be terminating the loan, giving a months notice. Good luck.
 
I think you might need to get some legal advice if they aren't cooperating. You do still own him, but it's proving it that might be a problem, especially if they applied for the passport in their own name. I know it isn't proof of ownership, but it's one more document than you have. Do you intend to take him back? Get some advice.
 
Jeez-

"felt a verbal agreement was respectful enough" erm why? The most precious thing in your life and you trust a perfect stranger with him, without contract?

"I'm scared stiff that they'll be intitled to keep him and I'll lose my precious baby boy!" after 9 years, you giving them the passport, and irregular visits you still call him this?


Anyhoo- if said nag is dangerous, and the daughter is loosing interest why not just phone up and say you will have him back- go to the yard repeatedly if you have to.
 
Is it possible to get a copy of the ad? All newspapers have archives so you might have a bit of homework to do but if you feel the need to clarify that there was never any intention to give your gelding away, then that's the place to start.

I wonder if the loaners are saying your horse is dangerous because they don't want you to have him back? Surely if he were so bad, they'd be more than willing for you to have him?

I think you've every chance of taking possession of him so long as you do all the right things ;)
 
Have you actually formally told them you want to terminate the loan? If not I think you are panicking too early. Write a letter and either hand deliver or send recorded and advise them of a months notice. Then make arrangements to collect the horse.
 
The passport is not proof of ownership so it's irrelevant either way. You were right to give them the passport of a horse on loan, as it should stay with the horse.

Of course you are still the owner. Verbal contracts are as binding as written ones in UK law (just more difficult to prove, which is why it is wise to have a written version). Since there has been no discussion of a sale, no agreement on a sale and no exchange of money you are clearly still the owner, the length of time of the loan is irrelevant.

If you want your horse back tell them! It would be kinder to give them a month's notice, after all they have been looking after your horse for 9 years, but after that go pick him up.
 
What Booboos says is correct. Ownership has not transferred. However if writing letters doesn't work, you may have to threaten legal action to get him returned.

Extremely foolish to loan out your horses without a loan agreement in place.
 
Send them a letter recorded delivery to inform them that you are terminating the agreement (giving them 1 months notice) and then go get the horse - informing them in the letter of the day and time you will be going to the yard.
 
i do not understand why they want to keep a horse which is unsuitable for them, and not being ridden, why don't you phone them on a landline, I do not think you should be texting. Why don't you give them 24 hours notice and see what happens?
 
MrsD123 said:
i do not understand why they want to keep a horse which is unsuitable for them, and not being ridden, why don't you phone them on a landline, I do not think you should be texting. Why don't you give them 24 hours notice and see what happens?
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Probably because they have loaned it for nine years and actually have feelings for it? Loads of people have unsuitable horses that they never ride. I could name several within a mile of my house!

I do agree that you should ring/write not text, and try and be nice rather than getting into a battle. They have cared well for him over the past nine years.
 
Whilst I agree that he is still legally yours and you are within your rights to demand him back, I also do wonder why, after 9 years of not really seeing him, you're suddenly panic-stricken that the people who have loved and looked after him for 9 years might want to keep him!! Have you seen him at all in the last 9 years??

As someone else has said - you may be over-reacting and they've just been busy with other things (maybe on holiday, exams, etc) so not gotten around to replying.

I would say that I would understand your attachment to him as he's out of your beloved mare but you did try to sell her all those years ago so you're not trying to grimly hang on to all trace of her. (And that's not a criticism at all - selling is heartbreaking but often the right decision and your circumstances changed).

I think that what I'm saying is "do you really want him back?" You don't know him now - 9 years is a long time! The loaners comments about his behaviour may be true (in which case do you really want to deal with that??!) or she may be trying to put you off as she doesn't want to give him back because she's had him for so long with no input from you and feels like he's hers.

Just a thought.
 
How much have you seen the horse during the 9 years?

Yes, he is yours. But I do feel sorry for the loaners. Even if they knew it wouldn't be forever, it will still be extremely tough to say goodbye after 9 years. It's a long time, especially when you're 21.

As others have said, you need to formally terminate the loan, in writing. But I'd be very careful, tactful & sensitive, to avoid things deteriorating any further.

Hope it turns out to have a happy ending :(
 
Mithras said:
What Booboos says is correct. Ownership has not transferred. However if writing letters doesn't work, you may have to threaten legal action to get him returned.

Extremely foolish to loan out your horses without a loan agreement in place.
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i know this now, i was far too trusting, but at the time i was quite young headed and didnt fully understand the law and the possible consequences of my actions, plus i had so many other things going on that i was greatful to find such lovely ppl to loan him. thanks for your advice x
 
AshTay said:
Whilst I agree that he is still legally yours and you are within your rights to demand him back, I also do wonder why, after 9 years of not really seeing him, you're suddenly panic-stricken that the people who have loved and looked after him for 9 years might want to keep him!! Have you seen him at all in the last 9 years??

As someone else has said - you may be over-reacting and they've just been busy with other things (maybe on holiday, exams, etc) so not gotten around to replying.

I would say that I would understand your attachment to him as he's out of your beloved mare but you did try to sell her all those years ago so you're not trying to grimly hang on to all trace of her. (And that's not a criticism at all - selling is heartbreaking but often the right decision and your circumstances changed).

Just a thought.
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hi, i never ever tried to sell either my mare or foal, never. this was never an option for me as i always intended to have them back regardless of the length the loan ran on. i do however really feel for the loaners and know how much love you can feel for a horse that youve cared for for so long. this is why i dont want to be ungrateful or ruthless, i just want at the very least unlimited access to my boy. i have kept in regular contact with the loaners and my horse, riding him occassionally too. i do appreciate both sides of advice, good or bad and am taking everything everyone says on board as it's definitely helping me to stay focused and do this right.
I think that what I'm saying is "do you really want him back?" You don't know him now - 9 years is a long time! The loaners comments about his behaviour may be true (in which case do you really want to deal with that??!) or she may be trying to put you off as she doesn't want to give him back because she's had him for so long with no input from you and feels like he's hers.
 
Was any indication *ever* given that the horse was gifted or abandoned; i.e. did they ever try to get in touch with you about anything, etc?
 
If they are now saying the horse is 'dangerous' and you say you have visited often and even ridden - then surely you know if this is a true statement or not?

Might not be popular for saying this - but I do find myself feeling every so slightly sorry for these people who have looked after and loved your horse for YOU for 9 years - and now you seem to want him back on a whim??:confused:

You may well be the legal owner, who knows tis a minefield, but I think morally they have more claim on the horse than you have TBH.:(

If Id had a horse for 9 years and loved and nurtured it - I think Id be looking for a safe hideaway and hang the consequences - cant imagine what that must be like to suddenly find a very loved horse is being whipped away from under you after caring for it for that length of time . But then I never did go through the stage of loaning out my horses when marriage, children and what ever else came along so who am I to say?;)
 
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