Vertebrae changes in 8 y/o? - experiences?

[kerryflower]

Vertebrae changes in 8y/o - experiences please?
I recently posted about my 8yo kown gelding blocking through his neck. My trainer (BD) had him while on holiday and noticed that now we are working at a higher level, he is becoming more evasive through the neck. This has been building up over the last year. On her recommendation the vet came today and x rayed and said there are changes to the vertebrae and has sent the X-rays off to specialist to determine how and if we can move forward. Where some vertebrae should be smooth, there are irregular edges.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what this may be and the possible treatment? The specialist won't get back to me until tues/weds and have been googling away and now worried myself to pieces.
Any ideas very much appreciated

 

[kerryflower]

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[cptrayes]

I have no experience of it myself but other people have posted before about steroid injections into the neck, just like hocks are done. Try not to worry, it doesn't sound disastrous, like my wobbler's horrifying xrays. A bit of arthritis maybe?

 

[applecart14]

Does anyone have any ideas?

It could be changes in his neck due to a fall. This is what happened to my horse. Sadly he went on to get CVM/Wobblers but it doesn't necessarily mean this could be the same with your horse.

I'm not slagging off you trainer (how can I as I don't know them?) but it does make me feel, by reading between the lines that your horse is worse now. Could your trainer possibly have been riding your horse in draw reins or doing rollkur? Maybe they ride harder and for longer than you would and expect more from your horse. This would be a likely explanation as to why your horse is suddenly a lot worse although you say the problem has been him showing evasiveness over the last twelve months.

Sounds like a problem already there which has just been excacerbated by the trainer possibly???

If your horse has a particularly long neck and is a WB or QH then the chances of him getting wobblers are slightly increased as it is more prevalent in these catergories. Does he show any neuro problems?

I hope its good news from your vet, hopefully there is a lot they can do for him so keeping my fingers crossed for you. Try not to worry - i know easier said than done xx

 

[chestnut cob]

how can I as I don't know them?) but it does make me feel, by reading between the lines that your horse is worse now. Could your trainer possibly have been riding your horse in draw reins or doing rollkur? Maybe they ride harder and for longer than you would and expect more from your horse. This would be a likely explanation as to why your horse is suddenly a lot worse although you say the problem has been him showing evasiveness over the last twelve months.

Sounds like a problem already there which has just been excacerbated by the trainer possibly???

I disagree. Based on what the OP has written, it seems that the horse was already a little evasive and now the work has been ramped up (type of work changed, work is harder, being asked to give and push more for longer etc), the horse is resisting. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the trainer as it sounds to me like the horse possibly had an underlying problem. The sort of thing that if you're just hacking or training at a low level would maybe never be noticed, but once you ask the horse to do more, he physically can't stand up to it. I imagine there are a lot of horses out there with low grade lameness or stiffness that is never noticed because the horse isn't pushed. Once you start pushing the horse to higher levels and asking him to be a real athlete, small niggles are going to start showing up.

I would expect the trainer to notice things - that's why I pay my trainer to ride my horse once a week. She feels things that I don't always, and she can deal with them quicker and more consistently. The OP doesn't say he horse has "suddenly" become worse, she says it has been building up over the last year. Which, to my mind, suggests he has struggled as he's being asked for more.

OP, no advice here. Is it kissing spines, or arthritic changes maybe? Hope you can get some answers.

 

[applecart14]

I disagree. Based on what the OP has written, it seems that the horse was already a little evasive and now the work has been ramped up (type of work changed, work is harder, being asked to give and push more for longer etc), the horse is resisting. I

Errr is that not what I put??? And I quote from my thread 'maybe they ride harder and for longer than you would and expect more from your horse. This would be a likely explanation as to why your horse is suddenly a lot worse although you say the problem has been him showing evasiveness over the last twelve months'

 

[chestnut cob]

Errr is that not what I put??? And I quote from my thread 'maybe they ride harder and for longer than you would and expect more from your horse. This would be a likely explanation as to why your horse is suddenly a lot worse although you say the problem has been him showing evasiveness over the last twelve months'

You also asked if the trainer had been riding in draw reins and/or using rollkur, thereby suggesting the trainer might have caused this... or that's how I read it anyway. Apologies if that isn't what you meant.

 

[ester]

My dressage trainer had a youngster (6/7) who did very well when younger and then started to struggle (I think with canter strike offs) it was determined that he had arthritis in his neck.

He was sold to a farmer for hunting - and it did seem that they change of regime really helped him, he didn't do a lot of hunting in the end but was mostly turned out and hacked. Another lady started schooling him occasionally and he seemed to cope quite well and he went back to doing BD up to elem I think and I think she then bought him (this was approx 3 years ago and I think he is still there). I don't know whether he would ever be up to holding a more advanced outline or more daily training but he had enough natural ability and grounding to manage the above without too many issues.

 

[TarrSteps]

If a horse has a degenerative condition then it will, well degenerate! Arthritis isn't something that magically starts one day and can be just as suddenly stopped. The horse can be managed, the symptoms can be treated and in some cases the progression can be slowed. Many horses can have long, happy productive lives with arthritic changes and clearly many did just that for years before we even had the means to diagnose in many cases. The prognosis completely depends on the individual situation.

I was talking to a vet recently who said they expect to see changes in the necks of many horses on autopsy, including ones with no obvious symptoms. I've known horses with 'behavioural problems' be found on x-ray to have unstable neck fractures!! It's amazing what they can put up with. On the other hand I've seen horses with virtually clean x-rays but significant symptoms respond very well to treatment.

It's not ideal to have a horse diagnosed with such a condition obviously, but it doesn't have to be a death sentence either. It also isn't necessarily anyone's 'fault' either.

How you progress will be individual. I would advise involving your trainer going forward as it is possible the horse will need special consideration and if your trainer is not on board that might be an issue.

I will say some horses with neck issues do cope better with hunting/jumping jobs but that's not a hard and fast rule. Time can also help, if the joints stabilise and the inflammatory process settles. This is not a 'cure' it's the horse making peace with the situation, but it can mean that a horse that goes away and does something less stressful for a few years might then be able to do a bit more.

 

[kerryflower]

Thank you all for your comments. All really useful to read and take on board to consider.

To clarify, Ollie has always been evasive through his neck but it seems to have gradually got worst as we have been working at a higher level. He has always found dressage easy and may have cruised his way through until now. He just seems to have become more evasive now that he is being asked to do more lateral and collected work. My trainer is absolutely on board and was the one who encouraged me to investigate further.

The specialist has come back to me and I have to take Ollie up to breadstone for another x ray with a more powerful machine. He said the changes were questionable and need to be investigated further to get more conclusive results. I will be taking him on Monday.
I am gutted as thought Ollie would be the horse to take me up through the levels. I'm just hoping we can control in so we can continue. He is insured for loss of use but would be devastated to have to put him on loan. So am trying not speculate before I know any more.

I don't think there has been concern about wobblers or kissing spine fingers crossed! Does anyone have any experience of steroid/cortisone injections and the success rate of them? Do you think we could continue to event?

 

[TarrSteps]

I think you really need to get the clarifications, speak to your vet, decide on a course of treatment and see how the horse responds. Things like this are almost infinitely variable and you simply cannot extrapolate from other people's experiences.

But yes, there certainly are horses competing with issues like this, with the right treatment and management. Don't despair quite yet!

 

[applecart14]

The specialist has come back to me and I have to take Ollie up to breadstone for another x ray with a more powerful machine. QUOTE]

this is really the best thing to do. The veterinary practice who I no longer use (who failed to spot advanced wobblers in my ten year old) came out with a portable xray machine and declared that there were no changes in Rommy's neck, although he was swinging his outside leg around severely and had had two ataxic episodes at this point.

It wasn't until he got to Liverpool and was xrayed under standing sedation with a more powerful machine that they got the full extent of his problem

 

[hihosilver]

Thank you all for your comments. All really useful to read and take on board to consider.

To clarify, Ollie has always been evasive through his neck but it seems to have gradually got worst as we have been working at a higher level. He has always found dressage easy and may have cruised his way through until now. He just seems to have become more evasive now that he is being asked to do more lateral and collected work. My trainer is absolutely on board and was the one who encouraged me to investigate further.

The specialist has come back to me and I have to take Ollie up to breadstone for another x ray with a more powerful machine. He said the changes were questionable and need to be investigated further to get more conclusive results. I will be taking him on Monday.
I am gutted as thought Ollie would be the horse to take me up through the levels. I'm just hoping we can control in so we can continue. He is insured for loss of use but would be devastated to have to put him on loan. So am trying not speculate before I know any more.

I don't think there has been concern about wobblers or kissing spine fingers crossed! Does anyone have any experience of steroid/cortisone injections and the success rate of them? Do you think we could continue to event?

I think you need to prepare yourself for the worst. I had my ISH 6 year old mare PTS in june from similar problem. She had x-rays and a bone scan changes were seen in vertebrae near to wither which is the worst place as it affects movement of front leg. The vet said her was due to a fall as a baby. She always hated going down hills. When I sent her away to be schooled this is when she became evasive. She was seen at Liphook and I was advised to rest her for a year and half. At the re evaluation she was so much better but not 100% so I was told to get her back in work. It lasted a week and she detrained very quickly and she didn't seem to know where to put her legs. I made the decision immediately as I knew she was just going to get worse. I do feel bad that I brought her back into work and question the vets opinion. Had she not been such a kind gentle mare who tried her best despite being in discomfort I think another horse would have reacted badly. I would never ever do the same again. All horses are different but please be realistic.

 

[kerryflower]

Thanks again everyone. He is going to bread stone tomorrow for his X-ray so will keep you posted. Am trying not to speculate before fully knowing what we are dealing with but will hope to have an answer tomorrow. Will let you know how we get on

 

[Monkers]

I don't know if this is relevant, but the growth plates at the base of the cervical spine don't fully close until around the age of seven or eight, so often on xrays on young horses the bones here can look a bit unusual and if you have a bone scan done there will be uptake of the isotope in this area.

 

[kerryflower]

Hi all


Firstly thank you for all of your feedback, experiences and suggestions.
Just to update you - Ollie went to the vet today. Firstly he underwent neurological testing and was thankfully totally ok and normal. He was then taken for xrays and they showed that his c6-7 vertebrae showed some obvious remodelling of the articular process joints but with no asymmetry. These changes are consistent with the appearance of facet joint arthritis. So he was injected with triamcinolene (steroid) with ultrasound guidanace bilaterally into the articulation.
Vet was confident that there should be improvement within 14 days and that Ol will be fine to continue competing etc and working through the levels. He will need to have injections every 20 months or so to keep him comfortable but apparently quite a few horses have them a few times a year. If in the meantime, he seems uncomfortable again, we will inject sooner.

So all in all, panic over and can hopefully look t starting a successful winter campaign with him

 

[applecart14]

Hi all


Firstly thank you for all of your feedback, experiences and suggestions.
Just to update you - Ollie went to the vet today. Firstly he underwent neurological testing and was thankfully totally ok and normal. He was then taken for xrays and they showed that his c6-7 vertebrae showed some obvious remodelling of the articular process joints but with no asymmetry. These changes are consistent with the appearance of facet joint arthritis. So he was injected with triamcinolene (steroid) with ultrasound guidanace bilaterally into the articulation.
Vet was confident that there should be improvement within 14 days and that Ol will be fine to continue competing etc and working through the levels. He will need to have injections every 20 months or so to keep him comfortable but apparently quite a few horses have them a few times a year. If in the meantime, he seems uncomfortable again, we will inject sooner.

So all in all, panic over and can hopefully look t starting a successful winter campaign with him

Marvellous news I am so pleased for you. My horse was affected with C3 and C4 and C6/C7 (the latter is very difficult to treat once it has started impinging on the spinal cord).http://www.equinewobblers.com/prognosis/prognosis.html

Static lesions at C6/C7 remain the most difficult cases to treat surgically due to the depth required for adequate exposure and the increased possibility of a postoperative fracture occurring during a bad recovery or a fall.

C6/C7 lessons most commonly occur in middle aged to older horses. The pathology of the cord compression is often related to arthritic joints of C6/C7 and also that this bone at C6/C7 is not as strong as in younger horses. This softened bone increase the possibility of post surgical complications such as fractures especially if the recovery from anesthesia is difficult or traumatic.

So glad things will work out fine and that there is no neuro deficit, I think its been caught early and the steroid will slow down the process considerably.

 

[kerryflower]

Thanks Applecart. The vet was positive that we had noticed in time and there was no reason why he wouldn't regress provdied we keep the injections up to date. It was a positive that that there are no indications of any neurological problems Fingers crossed!

 

[horsehappy]

Hi sorry to drag up an old thread but had a similar diagnosis along with a couple of vertebrae in the back remodelled and wondered how your horse got on? Many thanks x