lexiedhb
Well-Known Member
If a dog had given you those injuries you would of had it PTS asap (which is actually what I would of done with this horse!)...... strange how some people treat different animals differently!
Very aggressive horses
- Thread starter Wimbles
- Start date
If a dog had given you those injuries you would of had it PTS asap (which is actually what I would of done with this horse!)...... strange how some people treat different animals differently!
Jojo_Pea4
Well-Known Member
My boy can be the most affectionate horse but can change in a second and take chunk out of me.
Once he has the head collar on, he will not pulll his ears back once, loves a fuss. Great to be ridden loves keeping busy and using his brain but can be pigheaded at the same time.
He is fine with other horse and is one of the smallest but is always boss. He is best mates with every horse on the yard. Fine to catch, he's always happy to see me.
Once in the stable, he becomes a grouch, will walk over to me and be all pretty, ears pricked, then bite me. Once he has his feed I don't go in his stable and leave him to eat. He will pick up a leg pretend to kick, ears back and teeth when doing rugs. He gives a lot more signs and has only kicked when people don't read his warnings. I can read him and I make his life as comfortable as possible without stressing him.
I have to warn everyone on the yard to give a wide birth of his door. I give him Magic by NAF as this keeps him alot happier and less grouchy.
I get so much from him and have just learnt that when in his stable to keep my guard.
Once he has the head collar on, he will not pulll his ears back once, loves a fuss. Great to be ridden loves keeping busy and using his brain but can be pigheaded at the same time.
He is fine with other horse and is one of the smallest but is always boss. He is best mates with every horse on the yard. Fine to catch, he's always happy to see me.
Once in the stable, he becomes a grouch, will walk over to me and be all pretty, ears pricked, then bite me. Once he has his feed I don't go in his stable and leave him to eat. He will pick up a leg pretend to kick, ears back and teeth when doing rugs. He gives a lot more signs and has only kicked when people don't read his warnings. I can read him and I make his life as comfortable as possible without stressing him.
I have to warn everyone on the yard to give a wide birth of his door. I give him Magic by NAF as this keeps him alot happier and less grouchy.
I get so much from him and have just learnt that when in his stable to keep my guard.
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
I'm an aromatherapist, and work with horses. It sounds to me like this therapy could really help your horse - the oils directly affect the limbic system part of the brain, and the limbic system controls emotions.
It's quite a complex therapy, and there are lots of oils that spring to mind, but my first choice would be rose. This helps a horse come to terms with any past "abuse" issues, and helps to heal any bad memories - it's vry powerful stuff.
This is a link to who I trained with - give them a ring. They may have a practitioner near to you. They will take a hair sample from your horse, and using kinesiology, will select oils for you to try. I am absolutely sure that the therapy will help your horse
http://www.nhs4animals.com/coursesgeota/index.html
The other suggestion I have is using wendalls herb mix for rigs or similar, as that may lower the aggression ?
Hope that helps, sm xx
It's quite a complex therapy, and there are lots of oils that spring to mind, but my first choice would be rose. This helps a horse come to terms with any past "abuse" issues, and helps to heal any bad memories - it's vry powerful stuff.
This is a link to who I trained with - give them a ring. They may have a practitioner near to you. They will take a hair sample from your horse, and using kinesiology, will select oils for you to try. I am absolutely sure that the therapy will help your horse
http://www.nhs4animals.com/coursesgeota/index.html
The other suggestion I have is using wendalls herb mix for rigs or similar, as that may lower the aggression ?
Hope that helps, sm xx
abina
Well-Known Member
Quote : It's very interesting when you take him out of his comfort zone as he relies on me to look after him and is like a different horse. I really have never known an animal like it.
Sounds to me as though he is SO insecure that he will attack first to be on the safe side - it's his way, that he has learnt for self preservation. You sound like you have the handle on him and are more than aware of his ways and personalitly and sounds as if you are doing the best with what your horse will allow you to work with.
Safe, regular and disciplined lifestyle is what this horse needs but the mental side will maybe never go. Even though he has been at some of the expensive yards and with professional riders - who in no way am I suggesting that have hurt him (?) but all these places are high pressure atmospheres - competeing, racing, training, winning ..... maybe all too much for this boy. We all know some horse settle at some large, busy, noisy livery yards while others find it all too stimulating, never relax and the horse's behaviour changes.
Your doing a good job and if your happy to work with him then let him have as much as a full life as you can give him. You already know the outcome if you can no longer keep him - responsible owner and I applaude you for that !
Sounds to me as though he is SO insecure that he will attack first to be on the safe side - it's his way, that he has learnt for self preservation. You sound like you have the handle on him and are more than aware of his ways and personalitly and sounds as if you are doing the best with what your horse will allow you to work with.
Safe, regular and disciplined lifestyle is what this horse needs but the mental side will maybe never go. Even though he has been at some of the expensive yards and with professional riders - who in no way am I suggesting that have hurt him (?) but all these places are high pressure atmospheres - competeing, racing, training, winning ..... maybe all too much for this boy. We all know some horse settle at some large, busy, noisy livery yards while others find it all too stimulating, never relax and the horse's behaviour changes.
Your doing a good job and if your happy to work with him then let him have as much as a full life as you can give him. You already know the outcome if you can no longer keep him - responsible owner and I applaude you for that !
Woodykat
Well-Known Member
I think what some of you have said about the fact that your agressive horse get bullied in the field is very interesting. Horses need to know where they stand in the hierarchy of the herd - if they are at the bottom of the scale with other horses, could it be that they see you as the only person they can dominate?
I used to work at a riding school where the YO had a very aggresive mare - catching her in the field was a nightmare as she would charge at you teeth baring, lungeing a no no as she would do the same then (the instructor lungeing at the time dropped everything and legged it!). Grooming, tacking up, rugs etc, she would be trying to bite you, front leg waving around trying to kick you, and the same with back legs. Until one day when I was tacking her up and she was doing all of this - and I lost my temper - and kicked her front leg really hard without thinking! Cue a really shocked look (from both horse and myself) and no problems since. Unfortunately that did then mean that I was the only person that could do anything with her, and had no excuse not to! Mind you, she was a b*tch to ride too...and she thought she was a stallion!
I used to work at a riding school where the YO had a very aggresive mare - catching her in the field was a nightmare as she would charge at you teeth baring, lungeing a no no as she would do the same then (the instructor lungeing at the time dropped everything and legged it!). Grooming, tacking up, rugs etc, she would be trying to bite you, front leg waving around trying to kick you, and the same with back legs. Until one day when I was tacking her up and she was doing all of this - and I lost my temper - and kicked her front leg really hard without thinking! Cue a really shocked look (from both horse and myself) and no problems since. Unfortunately that did then mean that I was the only person that could do anything with her, and had no excuse not to! Mind you, she was a b*tch to ride too...and she thought she was a stallion!
minime
Well-Known Member
I had a really bad horse years ago when I was a groom. He was a total head case. I had to double tie him in the stable with his head out of the door so i could jump on the food manger if he went for me whilst grooming the left side and on the other side I would put a wheel barrow between us. He would bite kick and cow kick. If that wasn't enough he was bandaged so every day I had the delightful task of putting them on and taking them off whilst he would try to kick the hell out of me. Out of the stable he was no better. He would attack other horses when ridden and the farrier was paid double. I must admit I got the hang of him eventually and after I bit him back a couple of times he did mellow a bit with me. When I changed job the new groom wasn't so lucky and I was called back after two weeks as no one had managed to clean his stable since I left and he hadn't been out either. Poor devil, as you can imagine I returned with a pay rise and stayed there until he killed himself a few years later trying to attack a woman passing by the horse walker. He had been in the same yard since he was a baby so who knows why he turned out like that.
Rose Folly
Well-Known Member
I do hope you persevere, because I think things will become better and better as time goes on. Mending a damaged horse is not a quick fix. The horse may well have been abused, or neglected in the emotional sense, and just like humans, you can't heal issue like that over-night. The following might cheer you up:
I've had one agressive horse - a mare, newly separated from her foal, who came to me in terrible condition. At first all she wanted to do was eat, but once she came back into good condition I found that she had very aggressive tendencies, luckily limited to biting, barging and kicking, but also terrible head tossing when hacking. My son was appalled when he came home from university, agog to see my new mount, and she promplty knocked me down!
I reckoned it must be something in her past, and was quiet, confident and gentle with her, and also very watchful for teeth and heels. She gradually came out of herself. At that point through a strange set of circumstances I got in contact with her penultimate owner, who explained everything. He had known her since a foal as she was sired by his stallion. The people who owned her dam sold Rose (as per my nom de plume on here) when she was 18 months old, to a girl who then turned her away in a meadow for another 18 months, with no comcpanion horse or human contact. She was bred to race, but the trainer sent her back after 3 weeks as unrideable. At this point the penultimate owner (the stallion's owner) bought her back, managed to get her going and she had a very successful show jumping career; BUT his daughter who rode her was afraid of her on the ground, so he had to do all the looking after. I believe she 'double-barrelled' their son out of the stable, and fractured a dog's skull. Because of family illness he very reluctantly had to sell her, to be a brood mare, which is where I acquired her from.
Her anguish (I really think that is the best word) came from the fact that in her formative years she had no one, whether horse or human, to lay down any guidelines. She totally lacked confidence in communications and so behaved like an extremely bolshie child (tantrums in M & S variety!)
Once her old owner had told me this I was able to work on those aspects, including join-up, which she responded to brilliantly. I always remained wary about leading her, but thanks to join-up she would walk by my side happily anway. I stoppped the head tossing by riding her in a hackamore, a learning curve for her AND me, she stopped kicking and biting, and was a real old cuddle-bag.
I adored her, and she seemed to reciprocate, though apart from me, my son and my livery she did not greatly care for other people. She preferred the humans she knew to the horses she knew, but made good friends with the livery pony. I never regretted having her, and I miss her to this day. Sorry this went on so long, but I'm really saying 'hang on in there' - you will be amazed at what you can achieve. And don't be worn down by the doubters - that was the most depressing part, and at first I felt I was alwways having to defend her.
I've had one agressive horse - a mare, newly separated from her foal, who came to me in terrible condition. At first all she wanted to do was eat, but once she came back into good condition I found that she had very aggressive tendencies, luckily limited to biting, barging and kicking, but also terrible head tossing when hacking. My son was appalled when he came home from university, agog to see my new mount, and she promplty knocked me down!
I reckoned it must be something in her past, and was quiet, confident and gentle with her, and also very watchful for teeth and heels. She gradually came out of herself. At that point through a strange set of circumstances I got in contact with her penultimate owner, who explained everything. He had known her since a foal as she was sired by his stallion. The people who owned her dam sold Rose (as per my nom de plume on here) when she was 18 months old, to a girl who then turned her away in a meadow for another 18 months, with no comcpanion horse or human contact. She was bred to race, but the trainer sent her back after 3 weeks as unrideable. At this point the penultimate owner (the stallion's owner) bought her back, managed to get her going and she had a very successful show jumping career; BUT his daughter who rode her was afraid of her on the ground, so he had to do all the looking after. I believe she 'double-barrelled' their son out of the stable, and fractured a dog's skull. Because of family illness he very reluctantly had to sell her, to be a brood mare, which is where I acquired her from.
Her anguish (I really think that is the best word) came from the fact that in her formative years she had no one, whether horse or human, to lay down any guidelines. She totally lacked confidence in communications and so behaved like an extremely bolshie child (tantrums in M & S variety!)
Once her old owner had told me this I was able to work on those aspects, including join-up, which she responded to brilliantly. I always remained wary about leading her, but thanks to join-up she would walk by my side happily anway. I stoppped the head tossing by riding her in a hackamore, a learning curve for her AND me, she stopped kicking and biting, and was a real old cuddle-bag.
I adored her, and she seemed to reciprocate, though apart from me, my son and my livery she did not greatly care for other people. She preferred the humans she knew to the horses she knew, but made good friends with the livery pony. I never regretted having her, and I miss her to this day. Sorry this went on so long, but I'm really saying 'hang on in there' - you will be amazed at what you can achieve. And don't be worn down by the doubters - that was the most depressing part, and at first I felt I was alwways having to defend her.
holzrokz
Well-Known Member
I used to ride a horse like this at my previous riding stables when i was about 15.
He was an angel for about 2-3 months when i rode him, i learnt to jump on him and he loved it! never refused a single jump, would jump anything from a standstill despite any terrible riding from me at the time! The only thing i noticed was that he could try and bite other horses if he was behind them but i was used to that and it was easy to handle.
One day just walking him down to the indoor school he stopped and refused to move and then tried to take a chunk out of my arm and legged it! I didn't think too much of it apart from freaking out that he was going to go in the road when he escaped! but 10 minutes later half the yard comes down to catch him and they tell me to to try and get him myself, which i thought very odd. They finally cornered him, a woman led him away and he rears up and wacks her on the head and off he goes again. They had to call the yard owner down to catch him! I hen got on him (rather aprehensively!) and he was fine.
He continued to be fine but then one day would randomly attack again, and become more aggressive towards people who rode him. It didn't help that the riding school just put any novice on him and didn't tell anyone (until they saw it first hand) that he could bite. Its one thing for a horse to try and bite/nip you, but very different when you can see in their eye that they actually want to hurt you! Once he randomly spun away from me and just came at me with his teeth bared, kncoked me down and bit my arm leaving me with a huge bruise that covered my arm and i couldn't use my arm properly for a few weeks! Ithen got on and he bucked me off. At that point i started to get quite nervous around him but my instructor kept putting me on him (wasn't the type to say that i was nervous to) and eventually i got off and refused to ride him (at which point he bit me and buggered off broncing for while).
What i noticed was that he was an extremely intelligent horse. I know nothing of his past except the YO thought he might be a rig (never even bothered to check it and sort it out if he was though!) From the way he acted though, as attacks were completely random it seemed like that was the way that he was, although he would have done much better having a private owner to spend the time he needed with them. I think some horses are just like that, i read pippa funnells book and she mentions a horse that will randomly bite people, and also in monty roberts book he mentions (although this was a stallion) a few horses that were extremely aggressive (they couldn't hangle one at all, and this was an ex racehorse used for breeding).
It sounds like you are going the right way about it, and theres no reason to have him put down unless he is truely unhandleable (if thats even a word!)
He was an angel for about 2-3 months when i rode him, i learnt to jump on him and he loved it! never refused a single jump, would jump anything from a standstill despite any terrible riding from me at the time! The only thing i noticed was that he could try and bite other horses if he was behind them but i was used to that and it was easy to handle.
One day just walking him down to the indoor school he stopped and refused to move and then tried to take a chunk out of my arm and legged it! I didn't think too much of it apart from freaking out that he was going to go in the road when he escaped! but 10 minutes later half the yard comes down to catch him and they tell me to to try and get him myself, which i thought very odd. They finally cornered him, a woman led him away and he rears up and wacks her on the head and off he goes again. They had to call the yard owner down to catch him! I hen got on him (rather aprehensively!) and he was fine.
He continued to be fine but then one day would randomly attack again, and become more aggressive towards people who rode him. It didn't help that the riding school just put any novice on him and didn't tell anyone (until they saw it first hand) that he could bite. Its one thing for a horse to try and bite/nip you, but very different when you can see in their eye that they actually want to hurt you! Once he randomly spun away from me and just came at me with his teeth bared, kncoked me down and bit my arm leaving me with a huge bruise that covered my arm and i couldn't use my arm properly for a few weeks! Ithen got on and he bucked me off. At that point i started to get quite nervous around him but my instructor kept putting me on him (wasn't the type to say that i was nervous to) and eventually i got off and refused to ride him (at which point he bit me and buggered off broncing for while).
What i noticed was that he was an extremely intelligent horse. I know nothing of his past except the YO thought he might be a rig (never even bothered to check it and sort it out if he was though!) From the way he acted though, as attacks were completely random it seemed like that was the way that he was, although he would have done much better having a private owner to spend the time he needed with them. I think some horses are just like that, i read pippa funnells book and she mentions a horse that will randomly bite people, and also in monty roberts book he mentions (although this was a stallion) a few horses that were extremely aggressive (they couldn't hangle one at all, and this was an ex racehorse used for breeding).
It sounds like you are going the right way about it, and theres no reason to have him put down unless he is truely unhandleable (if thats even a word!)
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
Are you sure it is truly aggression? My horse can seem to be very aggressive but in reality, a lot of the time he shows this when he is worried or scared of something. His fear manifests itself as aggression and he is a horse who would stand and fight rather than run away. This post might turn out to be a bit long winded so apologies in advance if it does...
I have a 17hh IDx who I got at the age of 13, having been in the same home for his entire life (I loan him from his breeders). When I got him it turned out that he didn't lead (bargy, rude, would run you over to get where he wanted to be), couldn't be left alone, couldn't be turned out alone and so on. Initially he frightened the life out of me because I'd never dealt with such a big horse, and aggressive to boot. Much as I was sceptical, I had a Kelly Marks RA come out to help me work with him on the ground. I thought she would teach him manners whereas in fact she showed me what was wrong with my behaviour and how I should be behaving around him. He didn't want to be friends, he wanted someone to take charge and show him how he was expected to behave. My horse that had to be led in a chifney when I got him because he reared, span round, trampled people, bit and kicked can now be led by absolutely anyone (including my sister the other day who is terrified of horses!). However, I have to keep on top of him. I rarely do the specific groundwork exercises now that the RA gave me in the arena but I do have to regularly reinforce basics like personal space boundaries, not over taking when led, general manners and so on. 95% of the time he is the sweetest horse you could wish for on the ground but we do still have moments when he thinks he can barge through you to get somewhere. I can never give an inch because he will take a mile. I am not horrible to him, far from it, but he is one of those horses who needs absolutes - everything must be black and white, all of the time. If something is unacceptable then it must be unacceptable all of the time, not some of the time. I can't stand seeing people who one day let their horse rub all over them and the next day, hit them for it because it doesn't suit them at that time. It is either acceptable or it isn't, simple. I agree with Abina's post - it sounds like he needs a safe, regular and disciplined life style.
Talking of regular.. what is his routine like? My horse can't cope without routine. He needs regular handling and is much easier to deal with if he comes in to the stable for at least part of every day. He gets time off in the field when I go on holiday and will probably have a month off in Jan, but when he goes on his hols he will go with my YO's gang who will keep him firmly in check. The rest of the time, he thrives on his routine. Even if he only comes in for a few hours, I find he is far better this way. He also seems to be much more sane when he's had a snooze in his stable. He is the boss in his field ATM and TBH I don't think he particularly enjoys it so he likes some downtime from his field mates! Does your horse have a regular routine like this? Is he happy at your yard or would he be happier on a bigger or smaller yard? My boy won't settle at a small yard, he likes a lot of company.
Finally... mine is vile in the stable, so much so that only I and my YO can go in with him. When someone else does the yard, YO specifically leaves a note telling them NOT to go in his stable and NOT to disturb him while he is eating. This is because of something that happened to him many years ago (his owners told me about it though it wasn't their fault) which has made him very food proud. He always thinks you are going to steal his food and beat him in the stable so he goes straight on the offensive rather than be beaten. Two years down the line and I can go in the stable with him without him either trying to kill me or turning into a quivering mess but even I wouldn't disturb him while he's eating his dinner. He will tolerate me in there if he has hay, just about, but not with feed. He panics if anyone makes sudden movements by his stable and runs to the back. If you go in with a rug and he has hay he will automatically show aggression because he is trying to protect his feed. It took me 18 months to make him realise I didn't want to steal it. I also dealt with it badly to start with - you automatically assume that a horse behaving aggressively *is* aggressive, so that's how you deal with it. Once I realised he was scared, he became so much easier to deal with. He occasionally nips when outside the stable and that I will smack him for (on the chest) but never ever *in* the stable. With his aggression in the stable I find it is best to ignore it wherever possible (and he is learning that pulling faces doesn't get any reaction at all), and any leg waving (just a threat, he wouldn't go through with it) just gets a stern word. The best thing with him is just to be calm, ignore as much of it as possible as it is just posturing. He is far better when he has a head collar on, as if he knows he is "caught". I would say make sure you are not confronting him - don't stare at him and make eye contact. If you make eye contact with mine, he would take it as confrontation which makes him worse.
I'm sorry this is such a ramble but I wanted to show that it isn't always actually aggression, and that it can be dealt with...
I have a 17hh IDx who I got at the age of 13, having been in the same home for his entire life (I loan him from his breeders). When I got him it turned out that he didn't lead (bargy, rude, would run you over to get where he wanted to be), couldn't be left alone, couldn't be turned out alone and so on. Initially he frightened the life out of me because I'd never dealt with such a big horse, and aggressive to boot. Much as I was sceptical, I had a Kelly Marks RA come out to help me work with him on the ground. I thought she would teach him manners whereas in fact she showed me what was wrong with my behaviour and how I should be behaving around him. He didn't want to be friends, he wanted someone to take charge and show him how he was expected to behave. My horse that had to be led in a chifney when I got him because he reared, span round, trampled people, bit and kicked can now be led by absolutely anyone (including my sister the other day who is terrified of horses!). However, I have to keep on top of him. I rarely do the specific groundwork exercises now that the RA gave me in the arena but I do have to regularly reinforce basics like personal space boundaries, not over taking when led, general manners and so on. 95% of the time he is the sweetest horse you could wish for on the ground but we do still have moments when he thinks he can barge through you to get somewhere. I can never give an inch because he will take a mile. I am not horrible to him, far from it, but he is one of those horses who needs absolutes - everything must be black and white, all of the time. If something is unacceptable then it must be unacceptable all of the time, not some of the time. I can't stand seeing people who one day let their horse rub all over them and the next day, hit them for it because it doesn't suit them at that time. It is either acceptable or it isn't, simple. I agree with Abina's post - it sounds like he needs a safe, regular and disciplined life style.
Talking of regular.. what is his routine like? My horse can't cope without routine. He needs regular handling and is much easier to deal with if he comes in to the stable for at least part of every day. He gets time off in the field when I go on holiday and will probably have a month off in Jan, but when he goes on his hols he will go with my YO's gang who will keep him firmly in check. The rest of the time, he thrives on his routine. Even if he only comes in for a few hours, I find he is far better this way. He also seems to be much more sane when he's had a snooze in his stable. He is the boss in his field ATM and TBH I don't think he particularly enjoys it so he likes some downtime from his field mates! Does your horse have a regular routine like this? Is he happy at your yard or would he be happier on a bigger or smaller yard? My boy won't settle at a small yard, he likes a lot of company.
Finally... mine is vile in the stable, so much so that only I and my YO can go in with him. When someone else does the yard, YO specifically leaves a note telling them NOT to go in his stable and NOT to disturb him while he is eating. This is because of something that happened to him many years ago (his owners told me about it though it wasn't their fault) which has made him very food proud. He always thinks you are going to steal his food and beat him in the stable so he goes straight on the offensive rather than be beaten. Two years down the line and I can go in the stable with him without him either trying to kill me or turning into a quivering mess but even I wouldn't disturb him while he's eating his dinner. He will tolerate me in there if he has hay, just about, but not with feed. He panics if anyone makes sudden movements by his stable and runs to the back. If you go in with a rug and he has hay he will automatically show aggression because he is trying to protect his feed. It took me 18 months to make him realise I didn't want to steal it. I also dealt with it badly to start with - you automatically assume that a horse behaving aggressively *is* aggressive, so that's how you deal with it. Once I realised he was scared, he became so much easier to deal with. He occasionally nips when outside the stable and that I will smack him for (on the chest) but never ever *in* the stable. With his aggression in the stable I find it is best to ignore it wherever possible (and he is learning that pulling faces doesn't get any reaction at all), and any leg waving (just a threat, he wouldn't go through with it) just gets a stern word. The best thing with him is just to be calm, ignore as much of it as possible as it is just posturing. He is far better when he has a head collar on, as if he knows he is "caught". I would say make sure you are not confronting him - don't stare at him and make eye contact. If you make eye contact with mine, he would take it as confrontation which makes him worse.
I'm sorry this is such a ramble but I wanted to show that it isn't always actually aggression, and that it can be dealt with...
Wimbles
Well-Known Member
Some brilliant and very insightful replies and it's nice to know that I'm not alone. I found the similarities to autism fascinating, thank you!
My horse is such a strange boy as I know a lot of it is insecurity but as the natural horsemanship professional that did some work with him found out he sometimes just gets fed up with something and strikes out (he spent a very long time getting the join up done properly, had him following him around like a dog when my boy just took a swipe at him!!)
I'm lucky as he is good to lunge and great to ride (although occasionally a little high spirited) but sometimes I find it hard when everyday he's taking a pop at me and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere but then we'll have a lightbulb moment where things go really well, like when we went to the beach for the week and he was a pleasure to have around.
He's better on our little yard than he has been at big, busy livery yards but it's not a massive difference.
I think my big lad has made the biggest difference in his life though. Monty is his constant. Other horses may come and go and we may move but Monty is always there for him and has slowly taught him some horse sense so to speak. He's not a nasty horse but will tell Tiger off if he's pushing his luck without really hurting him, much like the mare and foal relationship.
It's great that I've now got some new avenues to explore and have found this really helpful so thanks all.
My horse is such a strange boy as I know a lot of it is insecurity but as the natural horsemanship professional that did some work with him found out he sometimes just gets fed up with something and strikes out (he spent a very long time getting the join up done properly, had him following him around like a dog when my boy just took a swipe at him!!)
I'm lucky as he is good to lunge and great to ride (although occasionally a little high spirited) but sometimes I find it hard when everyday he's taking a pop at me and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere but then we'll have a lightbulb moment where things go really well, like when we went to the beach for the week and he was a pleasure to have around.
He's better on our little yard than he has been at big, busy livery yards but it's not a massive difference.
I think my big lad has made the biggest difference in his life though. Monty is his constant. Other horses may come and go and we may move but Monty is always there for him and has slowly taught him some horse sense so to speak. He's not a nasty horse but will tell Tiger off if he's pushing his luck without really hurting him, much like the mare and foal relationship.
It's great that I've now got some new avenues to explore and have found this really helpful so thanks all.
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ginadrummond
Well-Known Member
What alot of common sense here really - I wish the forum had been around when I had my aggressive boy.
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of the replies above.
I have a TB who raced, and he is definitely not a morning peron, so the racing yard was literally a torture for him, he also has many little 'odd' ways that can't be accomodated in a situation like that. He is very territorial over his stable and his field, but we can do pretty much everything else with out too much trauma. Oddly enough he is the most mannerly of all of my horses, but God help you if he sneaks up on you in the field!
I am sure the place in the pecking order and our good routine has helped enormously, and also feeding him the minimum energy requirement for his workload, so he doesn't have too much 'latent' energy!
I have a TB who raced, and he is definitely not a morning peron, so the racing yard was literally a torture for him, he also has many little 'odd' ways that can't be accomodated in a situation like that. He is very territorial over his stable and his field, but we can do pretty much everything else with out too much trauma. Oddly enough he is the most mannerly of all of my horses, but God help you if he sneaks up on you in the field!
I am sure the place in the pecking order and our good routine has helped enormously, and also feeding him the minimum energy requirement for his workload, so he doesn't have too much 'latent' energy!
SusannaF
Well-Known Member
As someone said earlier, Storm Cat's foals do have a reputation for bad tempers, but it sounds like your beautiful boy is in the best possible home, with sympathy and demanding work to keep him entertained.
Interesting thread here at Chronicle of the Horse about peoples' experiences with Storm Cat foals. A mixed bag! I'm not sure how "true" the reputation is.
Interesting thread here at Chronicle of the Horse about peoples' experiences with Storm Cat foals. A mixed bag! I'm not sure how "true" the reputation is.
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cobface
Well-Known Member
My TB mare went through a phase last year after living out she was bought in for winter with day-time turn out. She hated being in, used to kick the door and try get over the stable door and barge past. She was a nightmare with the farrier.
Yet moved her onto a big livery yard and she is like a different horse, really chilled out and relaxed.
Yet moved her onto a big livery yard and she is like a different horse, really chilled out and relaxed.
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Calm consistant handling really helps.
My horse is the same and has improved no end with the above.
However if I coulnd't keep him or ensure him the right home, I'd PTS.
My horse is the same and has improved no end with the above.
However if I coulnd't keep him or ensure him the right home, I'd PTS.
lh1975
Well-Known Member
I can't see any reason for having him PTS - that seems a bit of an over reaction considering that you've explained his background and your current activities, etc. I think as long as you're on your guard and the two of you reach a certain 'understanding', that's fine. It's not as if you're allowing lots of people in his stable or letting them handle him - the main thing is your relationship with him. I'd definitely try join up - complete trust in you and respect for you may completely transform his character. I'd also explore different things that lift his mood - like the beach rides - it might not be possible to take him to the beach every week but doing things that have a noticable effect on him as regularly as possible may bring an all round change to his mood. I'd definitely give the holistic approach (aromatherapy, etc) a try too, particularly if he's had issues in the past that are still having an effect on him now. He looks a lovely horse and I hope you find a solution soon. It seems to me though that you've worked wonders already and that it's one of those things that take time but will be ultimately worth it in the end
Starzaan
Well-Known Member
I had a mare who was very, very aggressive in the stable, especially if there was a bucket of water involved! If you tried to tell her off she'd just come at you with teeth and front feet. We put her in foal to see if that would mellow her out a bit, but she turned out to be VERY foal proud! She had several people pinned in the corner of her box kicking the living daylights out of them, and eventually we just decided that she could live out with access to a barn at all times.
With people she knew she was much more manageable, and we just persevered. She was a DREAM to ride, and was alright for farrier, vet, dentist etc. so we just coped with her "quirks".
I don't see a problem with it as long as you can make sure everyone is safe, and are sure the horse is happy!
With people she knew she was much more manageable, and we just persevered. She was a DREAM to ride, and was alright for farrier, vet, dentist etc. so we just coped with her "quirks".
I don't see a problem with it as long as you can make sure everyone is safe, and are sure the horse is happy!
beeswax
Well-Known Member
all of Storm Cat's offspring have a "watch out" streak in them just like Anabaa's offspring they're bad as 2 year olds; just always be aware of what they are capable of and you will be fine.
flowerpower
New User
Thank you all at least i know i'm not the only person with an aggressive horse.
My boy has just turned 4 i bought him from a very large well known Arabian stud (yes my boy is an Arab) when he was 2 in the hope to show and keep entire. That idea soon went out of the window...he would kick at you on the end of a lead rope, walked around on 2 leg's rather than 4, he pulled faces and lunged over the stable door and of course the obvious biting. My best option would be to castrate which i did. He doesn't walk on 2 leg's anymore and doesn't try to kick (thank goodness) but the biting still continues. I am breaking him in myself so i have done alot of groundwork...he is Polish bred and so i have been told they mature late. To be honest i think he doesn't look mature enough to start ridden work until next year, but he has had a saddle on his back and works in a bridle which he accepts easily.
This horse is not scared of ANYTHING absolutley nothing, he isn't in pain...i have had back specialist out, teeth etc and he can be as good as gold for hour's and then all of a sudden bang he bite's and then of course run's. He has been kept with my other horse's (2 mare's) and he get's bullied as he doesn't know boundries and pushes until he either get's bitten or a good kick. Currently they are all in seperate paddock's next to each other but even then he cant resist...if one of them has her back to him he will have a good bite!!!
I contacted the stud who suggested i try a water gun, this does not work...he stand's and catches the water in his mouth!! Popping a balloon...so that has been tried and he just stood there and picked up the burst balloon and ate the damn thing!!! Shout at him...ha what a joke, slap him...well that's if you can catch the b***er, ignore him....trust me he just stands there and doesnt give up!!! I have got to say sometimes it just wear's you down to where i could beat him to death (although i wouldnt). I dont let anyone go in his field as i know how he behaves and i just dont trust him. He is ok with the farrier although he would take a bite if i allowed him to!! The more work i do with him the better he is although it doesn't stop it, but with winter coming and no menage on top of working until 5 working him is not an option. I should mention he isnt food aggressive which im thankful for!!
Other than extracting teeth has anyone got any answer's????......Please
My boy has just turned 4 i bought him from a very large well known Arabian stud (yes my boy is an Arab) when he was 2 in the hope to show and keep entire. That idea soon went out of the window...he would kick at you on the end of a lead rope, walked around on 2 leg's rather than 4, he pulled faces and lunged over the stable door and of course the obvious biting. My best option would be to castrate which i did. He doesn't walk on 2 leg's anymore and doesn't try to kick (thank goodness) but the biting still continues. I am breaking him in myself so i have done alot of groundwork...he is Polish bred and so i have been told they mature late. To be honest i think he doesn't look mature enough to start ridden work until next year, but he has had a saddle on his back and works in a bridle which he accepts easily.
This horse is not scared of ANYTHING absolutley nothing, he isn't in pain...i have had back specialist out, teeth etc and he can be as good as gold for hour's and then all of a sudden bang he bite's and then of course run's. He has been kept with my other horse's (2 mare's) and he get's bullied as he doesn't know boundries and pushes until he either get's bitten or a good kick. Currently they are all in seperate paddock's next to each other but even then he cant resist...if one of them has her back to him he will have a good bite!!!
I contacted the stud who suggested i try a water gun, this does not work...he stand's and catches the water in his mouth!! Popping a balloon...so that has been tried and he just stood there and picked up the burst balloon and ate the damn thing!!! Shout at him...ha what a joke, slap him...well that's if you can catch the b***er, ignore him....trust me he just stands there and doesnt give up!!! I have got to say sometimes it just wear's you down to where i could beat him to death (although i wouldnt). I dont let anyone go in his field as i know how he behaves and i just dont trust him. He is ok with the farrier although he would take a bite if i allowed him to!! The more work i do with him the better he is although it doesn't stop it, but with winter coming and no menage on top of working until 5 working him is not an option. I should mention he isnt food aggressive which im thankful for!!
Other than extracting teeth has anyone got any answer's????......Please
Georgia68
Well-Known Member
Chestnut Cob, your post sounds so familiar!
I have a 17.2hh Westphalian. Weve had him for just over a year and its been a rollercoaster ride.
When he first arrived at our original stables he just looked very worried about everything and madly weaved. We then moved to our current yard, which is a fantastic place with very experienced people. He seemed ok at first, still weaving, still a little subdued, but after about a month he found his feet and the true personality came out. He started to bully the other horses in his field to the point that one of the meeker ones jumped out three times to get away from him. He also started to herd the other horses when people came to bring another horse in. So he was moved to another field, which was next to the mares and he fell in love! He spent his days either flirting, or once the mare was brought in, running madly round in circles whinnying for her to the point that he created a race track in the grass. Also, refused to be brought in, one time kicking me in the ribs. So, the next thing was to put him in a field with my other horse at the time, a lovely ginger boy, who unfortunately has Wobblers. At first that worked, they seemed to get along ok. But then he attacked him and it was vicious actually had his jaws clamped on my other boys neck pushing him to the ground. Was horrible and frightening.
He now gets turned out alone, next to other horses, but in his own field.
He also began to show aggression in his stable, very territorial. First he was just waving his feet, then he actually made contact and tried to squash a couple of people up against the stable wall. He became the horse that only a couple of people were brave enough to deal with. It was all heartbreaking.
So we asked a behaviourist to see him and he basically said much as you have, that he needed to be dealt with very, very firmly, but with no violence (to which he would rise). He is now told exactly where to stand in the stable when we need to do anything this is done by waving a coiled rope at his backside until he is in the right spot. This works brilliantly with him as it removes uncertainty. We are also tough on him when leading and he has to be well behind and outside of your personal space (this has slipped a little recently so will be working on it next week!).
We cant risk him injuring another horse, so he will remain on solo turnout.
Just recently hes had his hocks done and is feeling physically great, this has resulted in him becoming a bit of a buckaroo, he's had me off 3 times in the past 4 weeks. Previously his ridden work was the only thing we did not have issues with sigh.
Anyway, despite all this, I adore him hes very affectionate with me and the few people that he trusts. He really is a beautiful boy. I couldnt sell him (all his issues, behavioural and physical) so we will somehow muddle through. I just keep plugging away at making him feel the most secure he can he has wonderful people looking after him, without them I think I would be a nervous wreck by now god bless them.
I have a 17.2hh Westphalian. Weve had him for just over a year and its been a rollercoaster ride.
When he first arrived at our original stables he just looked very worried about everything and madly weaved. We then moved to our current yard, which is a fantastic place with very experienced people. He seemed ok at first, still weaving, still a little subdued, but after about a month he found his feet and the true personality came out. He started to bully the other horses in his field to the point that one of the meeker ones jumped out three times to get away from him. He also started to herd the other horses when people came to bring another horse in. So he was moved to another field, which was next to the mares and he fell in love! He spent his days either flirting, or once the mare was brought in, running madly round in circles whinnying for her to the point that he created a race track in the grass. Also, refused to be brought in, one time kicking me in the ribs. So, the next thing was to put him in a field with my other horse at the time, a lovely ginger boy, who unfortunately has Wobblers. At first that worked, they seemed to get along ok. But then he attacked him and it was vicious actually had his jaws clamped on my other boys neck pushing him to the ground. Was horrible and frightening.
He now gets turned out alone, next to other horses, but in his own field.
He also began to show aggression in his stable, very territorial. First he was just waving his feet, then he actually made contact and tried to squash a couple of people up against the stable wall. He became the horse that only a couple of people were brave enough to deal with. It was all heartbreaking.
So we asked a behaviourist to see him and he basically said much as you have, that he needed to be dealt with very, very firmly, but with no violence (to which he would rise). He is now told exactly where to stand in the stable when we need to do anything this is done by waving a coiled rope at his backside until he is in the right spot. This works brilliantly with him as it removes uncertainty. We are also tough on him when leading and he has to be well behind and outside of your personal space (this has slipped a little recently so will be working on it next week!).
We cant risk him injuring another horse, so he will remain on solo turnout.
Just recently hes had his hocks done and is feeling physically great, this has resulted in him becoming a bit of a buckaroo, he's had me off 3 times in the past 4 weeks. Previously his ridden work was the only thing we did not have issues with sigh.
Anyway, despite all this, I adore him hes very affectionate with me and the few people that he trusts. He really is a beautiful boy. I couldnt sell him (all his issues, behavioural and physical) so we will somehow muddle through. I just keep plugging away at making him feel the most secure he can he has wonderful people looking after him, without them I think I would be a nervous wreck by now god bless them.
Georgia68
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry flowerpower, but that did make me chuckle!
Ooh, they are b*ggers aren't they!
Cazzah
Well-Known Member
If you went on to read the rest of my post you will see that he has come a long way since that point. I didn't buy him unaware and as they say 'you pay your money, you take your chance!'
IMO he was worth the perseverence and it was proven that there was an underlying reason, so I'm pretty glad I didn't jump the gun and reacted as you suggested.
flowerpower
New User
Georgis68 I can promise you I'm telling you the truth !!
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
I have worked with aggressive horses occasionally. I believe that each of them had become that way over a period of time, and they got progressively worse,
Horses are very quick to identify and exploit weaknesses or moments of inattention on the part of the owner/handler. Some horses use this ability very well and are always on the look-out for an opportunity to get a bite in or line you up for a kick.
I think it starts very subtley. The horse perhaps just swishes its tail, or rolls its neck a bit, or tosses its head, and it immediately takes stock of the reaction (or not) from the handler. If the handler missed, or was oblivious to, the 'threat', the horse will increase the behaviour both in terms of its frequency and its intensity.
If the handler does not respond correctly in the early stages, the horse will simply continue to increase in confidence and become more aggressive.
If the horse changes home, the new handler will bear the brunt of all the horse's learned aggressive behaviour and is faced with a very difficult situation.
A complication arises if/when a handler decides to reprimand the horse for this behaviour at some point. Having become used to holding a higher rank than the handler, the horse is bound to react badly to reprimand.
Horses such as these must be handled very attentively and sensitively, and any aggressive behaviour ignored completely. The handler must have excellent handling skills and mobility, and be able to immediately put the horse to some sort of work immediately it displays aggression.
Once the horse realises that it cannot get a fearful or defensive reaction from the handler, it will gradually become less inclined to try.
Horses are very quick to identify and exploit weaknesses or moments of inattention on the part of the owner/handler. Some horses use this ability very well and are always on the look-out for an opportunity to get a bite in or line you up for a kick.
I think it starts very subtley. The horse perhaps just swishes its tail, or rolls its neck a bit, or tosses its head, and it immediately takes stock of the reaction (or not) from the handler. If the handler missed, or was oblivious to, the 'threat', the horse will increase the behaviour both in terms of its frequency and its intensity.
If the handler does not respond correctly in the early stages, the horse will simply continue to increase in confidence and become more aggressive.
If the horse changes home, the new handler will bear the brunt of all the horse's learned aggressive behaviour and is faced with a very difficult situation.
A complication arises if/when a handler decides to reprimand the horse for this behaviour at some point. Having become used to holding a higher rank than the handler, the horse is bound to react badly to reprimand.
Horses such as these must be handled very attentively and sensitively, and any aggressive behaviour ignored completely. The handler must have excellent handling skills and mobility, and be able to immediately put the horse to some sort of work immediately it displays aggression.
Once the horse realises that it cannot get a fearful or defensive reaction from the handler, it will gradually become less inclined to try.
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natalia
Well-Known Member
There is NO WAY I would ever suggest or encourage those with a so called aggressive horse to use force or reprimand. Should I try and smack or tell off my mare when she's having a go she will come back much much harder on the defensive. I personally feel that horses being herd animals do not have in built aggression, just as they do not have inbuilt naughtyness. It's all a result of how they are handled and most of it stems from deep down insecurities or leadership issues. Interestingly most of the people with aggressive horses will notice they are better when away from home in a strange environment, this is because at this point they are relying on you for strong leadership. Once horse feels more comfortable in their surrounds they settle and if the strong leadership is not backed up from day one by all who handle them (ie by a groom or friend) often they soon become worse. my own mare took at least 6 months to really settle in to her routine and get to know everyone, new people she has a dislike too and will try it on with, should they not rise to the challenge and ignore her she is instantly better. Horses that bite or kick are defensive, sometimes due to being over handled as youngsters and not liking those in their space, sometimes beacsue they lacked the equine interaction as foals and young horses that teaches them where their place in the herd is. I would not breed from a mare with tempremental problems, as foal is likely to copy behaviour.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
I agree wholeheartedly with NicoleS_007 - he is a tunner, ab gorgeous!!!
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
stunner even lol
welsh horse rider
Well-Known Member
my 1st thought would have been is he in pain too.......
it sounds like you've done all you can and he's got a fab home don't know what to suggest
Going back 13-15 years when I worked at a welsh cob stud down Gower my friend used to get a welsh cob stallion come to stay at the yard for 2 weeks every year he was called Sky and was by Pennal calon Lan not sure of his dam and I must say he was a complete psycho he used to scare us something stupid because he would try to lunge at you over the door we nicknamed him Alien we expected a little alien to come out of his mouth.
his owner told my boss when she asked for some info on him just throw his feed and run but my friend wasn't like that and she wouldn't have a horse like that on the yard he did kinda come round but he will always be "psycho" to me and i would never go near him
all of pennal calon lan's progeny is tapped so I have been told
it sounds like you've done all you can and he's got a fab home don't know what to suggest
Going back 13-15 years when I worked at a welsh cob stud down Gower my friend used to get a welsh cob stallion come to stay at the yard for 2 weeks every year he was called Sky and was by Pennal calon Lan not sure of his dam and I must say he was a complete psycho he used to scare us something stupid because he would try to lunge at you over the door we nicknamed him Alien we expected a little alien to come out of his mouth.
his owner told my boss when she asked for some info on him just throw his feed and run but my friend wasn't like that and she wouldn't have a horse like that on the yard he did kinda come round but he will always be "psycho" to me and i would never go near him
all of pennal calon lan's progeny is tapped so I have been told
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