Very confused re Vetting & Bute

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HazyXmas

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Please can someone help?

I had a horse vetted today. Not my vet but one used by trainer. The horse is a long way from me so i very stupidly had decided not to attend. I had left a list of things i was slightly concerned about & the Vet practice had said that the vet would call me beforehand to chat. He didn't.

He called at 5.15 & told me the horse had passed the five stage vetting. Great news. We chatted through all the things i'd been concerned about. At the end of the conversation he let slip that the trainer hadn't been able to sign the drug withdrawal slip as he thought that the horse had had bute for a minor field injury 7 or 8 days ago.

I queried this & he said that he didn't think the horse had been given it to 'cover anything up' But isn't it ridiculous to vet a horse that the trainer openly admits may well still have bute in it's system? Am i making a big deal out of this? I'm planning on calling my vet in the morning.

Interested to hear other people's views. Thanks
 
I would always use an independent vet, not one affiliated with the owner or trainer. I don't understand re the bute - it has a short half life so if given 7 or 8 days ago it should have been completely metabolised anyway.
 
HazyXmas said:
Please can someone help?

I had a horse vetted today. Not my vet but one used by trainer. The horse is a long way from me so i very stupidly had decided not to attend. I had left a list of things i was slightly concerned about & the Vet practice had said that the vet would call me beforehand to chat. He didn't.

He called at 5.15 & told me the horse had passed the five stage vetting. Great news. We chatted through all the things i'd been concerned about. At the end of the conversation he let slip that the trainer hadn't been able to sign the drug withdrawal slip as he thought that the horse had had bute for a minor field injury 7 or 8 days ago.

I queried this & he said that he didn't think the horse had been given it to 'cover anything up' But isn't it ridiculous to vet a horse that the trainer openly admits may well still have bute in it's system? Am i making a big deal out of this? I'm planning on calling my vet in the morning.

Interested to hear other people's views. Thanks
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I would be extremely careful, you need to speak to your own vet and get his advice. The horse should not have been vetted until given time for the bute to have gone out of his system. Have you paid for the horse? My friend had a dreadful experience when buying from a well known dealer, the horse was found to have been on bute when the blood from vetting was run. Horse had serious back problems, bute was given by dealer to hide this fact. Someone has to sign to say that the horse has not had any medication, if the trainer signed this knowing that the horse was on bute then I would not trust her and she would no longer be my trainer. I think the normal time is 10 days after the last dose for bute. Please be very careful.
 
Hmm I too would be suspicious. I can't remember what the withdrawal period is for bute. I would want the owner to agree to wait until the period is up then do the blood test. But then I've had such bad luck with horses I would be stupid not too

I also feel the owner should have told you this before you paid for vetting. I would be worried in case the owner thought that once you had Paid for the vetting and the horse passed (albeit maybe while on bute) that you wouldn't want to waste the money and would just buy the horse

Like you I also don't understand how the vet could pass a horse that potentially is still on bute

That's just how I see it and others may well see it differently
 
I would be seriously peed off with the seller who should have declared this to you prior to arranging vet, do that you could arrange the vetting when the bloods would test clear.

In fact it would anger me so much that I would have to seriously like the horse to not just walk away.
 
If I were you I would go back , take my own vet this time and re do the vetting ! Yes you may have to pay out again BUT I have heard some absolute horror stories of people using the sellers vets , especially if they have been in with the vet I honestly would not risk anything here .
 
Hmm I'm interested to hear people's views on this also....when I wrote this there wasn't any comments, as soon as I did afew came up :-/
 
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Agree with both Soulfull and Ihatework. My friend was seriously conned by well known dealer, and was even given shopping bags of nuts and chaff supposedly for the "change over" all laced with bute!!! I think I would be looking for another horse, there are so many out there, you cannot trust anyone when buying horses.
 
I would be extremely cross with the vet and would refuse to pay the full amount. That is outrageous, he should have called you
 
The last horse I sold I was asked at the first stage whether it had recently been given any drugs and had to sign, if I had refused to that should have been the end of the vetting as there would have been a risk of it passing but not being clear, I cannot understand why the vet went ahead, why the vendor had not told you it had been given pain relief or even that it had suffered a recent, if minor injury, so that the vetting could have been delayed for a few days. They do not sound like novices so I would be very wary that the horse may have been medicated recently and that they were unwilling to sign in case you test the blood at a later date, this way they are covering their backs in case something goes wrong and it turns out to be a long standing issue, not a minor field accident that required medication.

The vet has been unprofessional, he should have spoken to you prior to seeing the horse so you could have asked him to look at anything specific, I would be very unhappy with the whole situation and probably be asking for another full vetting before doing ahead, or pull out altogether depending on how much I liked the horse.
 
TheMule said:
I would be extremely cross with the vet and would refuse to pay the full amount. That is outrageous, he should have called you
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I suppose though it depends on when the vet learned if the bute - ideally they should ask the questions beforehand, but the last horse I sold the vet did the examinations then asked all the paperwork questions at the end .
 
IMO the vetting was next to useless if the horse cannot be tested bute free.

How you deal with the vet about that would depend on how you feel about kicking up a fuss.

If the agreement was that the vet called you prior to vetting, and they did not, then that would not please me. If the horse is under bute, and the vetting went ahead regardless, then I wold not be paying for the vetting. If the vet did not know until afterwards because they left the paperwork until after the vetting then the vet could go back and re-visit after the bute was out of the system.

I may decide that I no longer trust the vet, in which case if I really liked the horse I would get another vet. I may decide that the owner is not trustworthy. I would REALLY have to like the horse to go any further.

Buyer beware!
 
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Emmie&Max said:
and was even given shopping bags of nuts and chaff supposedly for the "change over" all laced with bute!!!

Omg! :-0
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Yes, it is OMG!!! My friend had built up a relationship with this dealer for around a year, had even put her up for the night for the Olympics and this was how she was treated. Disgusting, the vet was also furious with dealer.
 
Adele1D said:
Yes, it is OMG!!! My friend had built up a relationship with this dealer for around a year, had even put her up for the night for the Olympics and this was how she was treated. Disgusting, the vet was also furious with dealer.
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I honestly don't know how some people sleep at night! It's ridiculous! And I hear more and more of things like this. Shocking!
 
Adele1D said:
Yes, it is OMG!!! My friend had built up a relationship with this dealer for around a year, had even put her up for the night for the Olympics and this was how she was treated. Disgusting, the vet was also furious with dealer.
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I hope the vet has refused any further association/vettings for the dealer. Terrible, this is the sort of underhand behaviour that makes buyers wary of purchasing in this way
 
TBH I wouldn't want to pay for the vetting. Vet wasted your money unnecessarily IMO. I'd only pay the callout fee.

I'd be wary of the vagueness too. Trainer "thinks" (erm, find out!) horse had "an injury" (what exactly?) "7 or 8" (again, find out) days ago. There must have been someone trainer could have phoned to find this info. Vet mentions in passing at end of conversation that horse maybe had bute in its system, as if its not important. I think that's bad. Wouldn't trust them.
 
Emmie&Max said:
I honestly don't know how some people sleep at night! It's ridiculous! And I hear more and more of things like this. Shocking!
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It is very much BUYER BEWARE. If I was OP I would walk away, it seems like a complete cock-up with regard to the vetting even suspicious!!!
 
ihatework said:
I hope the vet has refused any further association/vettings for the dealer. Terrible, this is the sort of underhand behaviour that makes buyers wary of purchasing in this way
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Vet had refused to go back to dealers yard and was worried about other horses he had signed off there. Don't know if he still refuses to go there, but you may depend that dealers card is well marked with that practice!!! It was such a dangerous thing to do as the horse had serious back issues and bucked several times with me and threw my friend off into the school fence hurting her. Poor thing was sent back to dealer who sent him straight over to Goresbridge sales in Ireland sold under another name!!
 
I wouldn't pay for the vetting, I wouldn't bother having the horse re-vetted and I certainly wouldn't have anything more to do with the trainer, who was obviously intending to be complicit in this 'dodgy' deal.
 
So vet was the vet used by the trainer who owned the horse or who had a connection to the horse?

It is normally best to use an independent vet for the vetting who has no connection to anyone involved in the selling of the horse.

I think you need to know at the very least what the field injury was and if the horse had bute or not and when and how much and for how long. Bute normally wears off within 24 hours so if it was 8 days ago and was only a small amount and there no evidence of an injury then horse may still be ok - if you had know what the injury was the vet could have had a really good look at the area.

I think you need to speak to vendor or trainers to find out the full story and then look at getting a 2nd vetting with an independent vet if you are still interested.
 
I would want to know a number of things.

1) What was the field injury the horse had and how bad was it.

2) What dose was the horse given 1 or 2

3) How many days was the Bute given

and finally were bloods taken if so these can now be tested. It takes 7 days for Bute to leave the system.
 
OP at the very least you'll have to re-do the vetting once the bute has cleared, the owner has told you the horse has bute in his system on the day of the vetting.

Say you buy him, get him home and in a week he's dog lame - come on here and everyone (and all of your friends) will tell you to get the bloods taken at the vetting tested - which you will do and you'll find BUTE - and you'll get nowhere getting a refund etc. because all the paperwork from the vetting will state that there should be bute in the blood.

If you absolutely love the horse, throw another £300 at a new vetting in a week, personally I'd see if the vet and or seller will cover the second vetting cost as the seller shouldn't have agreed to book the vetting at this time and the vet should have checked before starting the exam.
 
SO1 said:
So vet was the vet used by the trainer who owned the horse or who had a connection to the horse?

It is normally best to use an independent vet for the vetting who has no connection to anyone involved in the selling of the horse. .
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I thought it was the OP's trainer's vet, nothing to do with the seller and yes I would be reluctant to pay (vet should have phoned you and not proceeded) and it would have to be some horse for me to want to continue.
 
A quick update.

Apparently the trainer did sign the slip but later (i think) told the vet about the bute so a note was added. The vet is saying that bute would be out of the system after 7 days so horse should test clear.

It is quite a well known racehorse trainer & they do seem to have a good reputation when they sell their horses on. I'm feeling happier but am going to run it by my vet first thing.

With regard to not using their vet, i was under the impression that these days it is actually beneficial as they are legally obliged to declare any visits & treatments. It was also very tricky to find an equine vet that they didn't use, like many big yards they use all three of the 'local' vets. What do other people do? Maybe i should have asked my vet to recommend one?

I'm going to sleep on it & talk to my vet in the morning.

Thank you to everyone that took the trouble to reply.
 
Racehorse trainer puts a different spin on it, they probably have no idea what the head lad gives the horses half the time with the amount of medication they will be using each day, as long as they are legal for racing and keep notes, it would bother me far less if buying a horse to race in the near future, if that is what you are buying it for, than buying a competition horse which is what I had thought from the OP, if the horse has passed and really did just have a knock that required some bute I would probably still go ahead, a registered trainer has a lot to lose if anything untoward was done.

I would ask for it's history before paying so you can see what, if any, treatment has been given in the past that is the advantage of using the sellers vet they can decline to do the vetting if there is anything to hide, however by using several vets can mean various treatments get done to spread the load a bit but it should be easy enough to get it all now.
 
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