Very frustrated - want to cry!

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MarinaBay

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I was mean to go to a show on Sunday - my first one for what seem like ages!

I have been working on Angels loading for the past year - she is a right monkey, taking upto 2.5 hours. Anyway we seemed to get through it and she did a lot of work with Kelly Marks and i took her out a couple of times no trouble at all just a bit of encouragement needed.

Well Sunday i tried for an hour and no joy, tried again Sunday evening, she got on but ran off as quickly as possible. Tried again last night and got 2 feet on the box 2 on the ramp. I took the partition out as that is seems to be what is bothering her - she seemed more interested.

Has anyone tried using a sedative to load and travel? i am so frustrated as she is so talented but i can't get her anywhrre to show it.

Any advice would be much appreciated.
 
Well she used to get very stroppy, rearing up as high as possible. Now she has the dually its not as bad. What is so fruatrating is that when she has had enough of trying she just walks on! She puts 2 feet on and plants her back 2 on the floor! Any encouragement from behind and she refuses point blank to get on and has a HUGE tantrum! She walks upto the ramp then backs off!
 
See, I think in the case of naughty loaders, quite often brute force, or at least a very firm hand, is required. We used to 'sort out' people's problem loaders for them - there is nothing that a flick of a lunge whip, two hefty pairs of arms on either end of a lunge line and a great deal of firmness cannot deal with.....

They get canny, after a while, and you have to be firm with them. If the horse has had a fright or is genuinely scared, that is easy enough to recognise and a gentle approach is required, but personally, I view a refusal to load in the same light as I would bad manners such as biting or kicking.

Stick a chifney on her to bring her back down to earth if she rears
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Any encouragement from behind and she refuses point blank to get on and has a HUGE tantrum

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Have you ever tried to load her with just one person - no one behind at all, and no interference from others.
 
I would put 2 lunge lines behind her (together with someone who knows how to use them) and use them to get her on where necessary, I don't know any horse that hasn't gone on this way out of all our 'bad loaders' and yes they can throw strops.
Are you standing in front of her when loading?
Have you tried food?
 
Mix Elz-I think that is a very dangerous view to take...sometimes it is required, sometimes (e.g in the case of a kicker? Or a 17.3 ID mare..) it is absoloutely dangerous. Very broad statement to make..
 
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Any encouragement from behind and she refuses point blank to get on and has a HUGE tantrum

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Have you ever tried to load her with just one person - no one behind at all, and no interference from others.

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Thanks for your reply AmyMay, I tried last night on my own i just sat in the box with her food bowl full of yummy smelling food and she was like 'what? this is wierd', and did seem keen to get on got the 2 feet on ramp 2 feet on box from that. When we were loading on Sunday my friend stood near by and Angel was constantly looking at the partition and nosing it as though to say get that out of the way, its like she is clostrophobic (sp!!) so have now taken the partition away!
 
Disagree with always using force as suggested by MizElz - my little arab could be a total sod to load, he wasn't frightened just totally stubborn. However even so much as a raised voice or a lunge whip/line, and he backed off the ramp like a rocket, or more dangerously went up and sideways. Once had instructor, me, her husband and his friend virtually trying to carry him on - amazing how strong even a small horse can be if he does NOT want to go.
However another user on here came out and helped me and with a bit of groundwork sorted him out in an hour - but then you (OP) have tried Kelly Marks and inagine she used siilar techniques? (NB I have never had other handling probles with him so not like I just needed to be taught how to handle my horse!)
Guess you have tried things like not letting her stop and stand for ages on the ramp? We now back him up and walk toward ramp again, he's not allowed to just shut off and stand still on the ramp.
 
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I would put 2 lunge lines behind her (together with someone who knows how to use them) and use them to get her on where necessary, I don't know any horse that hasn't gone on this way out of all our 'bad loaders' and yes they can throw strops.
Are you standing in front of her when loading?
Have you tried food?

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Thanks for your replys! Tried the lunge lines before with the trailer will try them now with the box they didn't work before with the trailer.
Its a renault master 3.5 van consersion side loading so its quite hard to know where to stand if you know what i mean.
Food seems to be the only answe to get feet on the ramp!
 
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Mix Elz-I think that is a very dangerous view to take...sometimes it is required, sometimes (e.g in the case of a kicker? Or a 17.3 ID mare..) it is absoloutely dangerous. Very broad statement to make..

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What is a dangerous statement to make?
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All I've said is that I would no sooner tolerate a naughty loader - emphasis on naughty, which I would say OP's horse most definitely is - than a biter/kicker/rearer etc. That doesnt mean to say that I would beat it mercilessly; more that I would be firm with it.....which, surely, is the ONLY approach with any horse anyway? People get very stewed up over the likes of Parelli and 'NH' methods, because they are NOT firm. Please dont misunderstand me; what I am saying is that my method with a horse or pony like this - 11 hands or 17.3 - would be to use lungelines (ideally with a strong man either end, a lunge whip to tap/flick if they get any ideas about backing up or pulling away, a chifney to maintain control and no mamby-pambying around. And of course, a polo once the horse has gone in. This method has worked on every occasion for me; we've even stepped in during situations at shows when people have been beating and whipping their horses, to no avail, and shown them how to do it firmly, but quietly.

I dont quite know what you are slating me for...
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Forgot to add, the only time now we have a bit of a delay (Menaing we have to back up a few times and come at ramp again) is when he hasn't been out for a while - could you maybe go back and do whatever exercises worked last time from scratch again? And then make a point of loading her up once every couple of days from now on? Just so she doesn't get out of the habit.
 
Brute force wouldn't work with Angel either, she sounds very much like your arab, goes up and sideways! Yes i have been doing the back and forth technique with Angel but she now just refuses to go back with out a lot of force, walks sideways! its so draining!

MizElz - think it can work with some horses just not my mare! It would completely freak her out.
 
It may be worth pursevering on your own then. (Make sure a person is lurking ultimately to do up the back bar).

A friend has a tricky loader - and it's the only thing that works. Introduce another person in to the equation and you can forget the horse loading.

The suggestion of brute force is a dangerous and ignorant one - so please, never go down this route. Beat a horse on to the box once, and you will never, ever get it on again...

Good luck, I can't imagine what it must be like to have a bad loader - and admit it would reduce me to tears too.
 
I'd like to see any brute force get behind my 16'3 warmblood when he's at full height rear on the ramp, you'd have to be very arrogant or stupid to be that close as he can whip round just as quick when he comes back down. There is no brute force possible could get him on if he says no.
 
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Forgot to add, the only time now we have a bit of a delay (Menaing we have to back up a few times and come at ramp again) is when he hasn't been out for a while - could you maybe go back and do whatever exercises worked last time from scratch again? And then make a point of loading her up once every couple of days from now on? Just so she doesn't get out of the habit.

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Yes i hope that once i am getting her on regularly i can do this, think i will have to go back to basics do the groundwork again back and forth, she is a dream to handle in every other way, never kicks bucks bites, just rears when it comes to the box. Think once she is on i will do this for a week get her on and feed her on there, then close the ramp, then start the box, then little journeys and back home, then start going out!

Its so frustrating i have been thinking about getting another horse but i love Angel to bits!
 
Miz Elz, I think it was the term 'brute force' that was maybe a bit strong? Also I, like others I expect, know of at east one horse that would take ages to load even in a chifney with a very experienced SJer directing operations - his methodology was definately brute force He succeeded in getting the horse on the lorry everytime, however it always took at least 40 minutes, ended up more than once with her going over backwards on the ramp, and everyone being in a thoroughly bad mood. The same mare loaded straight onto my lorry (an old bedford so not as if it was bigger/lighter than she was used to) when we used the methods I was taught for my horse.
I agree that in some situations, sorting it out once and for all will fix the problem and the horse will load from then on. However I don't think it is always the answer, as some will just get themselves into even more of a state and its not practical to have have two people always on hand who are strong enough to vitually lift the horse onto the lorry!
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I understand your point MizElz and can see that the firm but kind method may work but Angel freaks if the lunge whip comes out so it wouldn't work for her. thanks for your advice tho.
 
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The suggestion of brute force is a dangerous and ignorant one - so please, never go down this route. Beat a horse on to the box once, and you will never, ever get it on again...


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I never said anyone should beat the horse
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We never have, I know that much. Or is a flick with a lunge whip - as you might to keep the horse moving when lunging - considered 'cruel' these days?

It saddens me that so many people let their horses walk all over them, simply because they are 'too big' to deal with firmly. Not in any way directed at you, OP, more a general observation, for there are so many people that end up with problems that should never be.

We've never had a 'naughty loader' because, right from day one, ours have learnt that naughtiness is not rewarded; they respect us. This isnt because we have 'beaten' them; its simply because they have been treated with firmly.

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Think thats your best plan, start the groundwork again and go from there! Mine is the same, he is an absolute gentleman to handle, was only ever the travelling that was a problem. Having said that he is always fine once in, travels very well!! So just the loading that was an issue.
I've found now that once a week is enough to keep him in the swing of things, any longer than a week and we need a bit longer to load.
Best of luck hough, I know how frustrating it can be but the problem sounds like it has been solved once before so it can be again!
 
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I understand your point MizElz and can see that the firm but kind method may work but Angel freaks if the lunge whip comes out so it wouldn't work for her. thanks for your advice tho.

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No worries, and maybe I worded it a bit harshly - by 'brute force' I meant being very firm, not letting the horse get away with anything (but obviously not physically abusing it
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). Also understand that some horses are frightened by lunge whips; my boy Mickey ran a mile if he saw any kind of whip; could never have taken one near him! Good luck with your mare, she does sound a naughty little moo!
 
Thank you so much Emma C it is nice to know i am not alone! Let the challenge commence!

Thanks AmyMay too and everyone else u have been great!

Has anyone ever tried a sedative? a friend of mine mentioned this to me, its worrying obviously as want them to be awake enough to travel and of course be awake to compete the other end!
 
Personally I would never sedate.

One final point. How is she loading in a different lorry/trailer. It may well be that something about yours upsets her???
 
MizElz-you'e edited your post...it did not used to say 'quite often' I am positive of that. How rude of you.
OP-Have you tried feeding her on the box every time she is fed i.e until she is standing on the box she will not get her evening/morning feed?
Most should soon work it out..having spent hours loading, I know it is horrible! However I do have a cured once problem loader who has been 'cured' ever since the day we fixed it.
Basically, with just myself I opened up the trailer and eventually had it to sending him through without a stitch on him, then sending him up the ramp etc. However yours is a horsebox. Have you tried her on a lorry with a back ramp? Might be the side ramp she isn't fond of?
 
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MizElz-you'e edited your post...it did not used to say 'quite often' I am positive of that. How rude of you.


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Excuse me???????
 
This might sound a bit wierd but have you tried squirting water at her back legs/bottom. My mare was a nightmare to load would just plant herself at the bottom of ramp and not move, tried everything including a whip, made no difference at all. I used to have to stand at top of ramp holding lead rope until she decided to go on, once she stepped onto ramp she would walk in.
A guy who worked at the vet suggested water from a brush. Didn't have one but had a bottle of water with squirty top. One squirt she stepped forward, 2nd one straight in. Went from up to 2 hours for loading to 5mins, and it worked everytime.
Not saying that it will definately work for you but worth a try, less stressful for you and your horse.
 
LOL Pinkwellies that made me chuckle! I've never heard of using water before, but if it works, then fair play!
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Angeldelight - I wouldnt sedate her, personally, for the reasons that everyone else has already stated. I dont think I've ever heard of anyone sedating for travel, apart from by air/sea.
 
I can tell you a method that I have yet to see fail and requires no special equipment and no extra people. It also works for stubborn mules and scared ones.

1:Walk the horse up to the trailer (in a bridle if horse can get strong), with gloves on you and a schooling whip. The moment the horse stops, you stop at the horses shoulder, encourage the horse forward with voice only, if the horse step back even one inch, turn and walk away calmly face well away from the trailor then make the horse very uncomfortable.

2:This bit is up to you as you know the horse for some it's just a shake of the rein and a rea grrrr get up blah balh, for other it's a dam good whack on the arse with the stick, plus angry voice, basically make it as uncomfortable for the horse away from the trailor as possible.

3: Walk calmly back to the trailor telling the horse how good he is how wonderful, be very encouranging and kind make it wonderful and calm for the horse, then repeat from step one above.

This method says to the horse nice calm and pleasant going towards/in trailor. Horrible and uncomfortable away form trailor. It's obvious really why this works and mean you have a calm quiet horse at the trailor.

Hope that helps.

Burtie
 
It is quite unusual, guy who told me was a ex-jockey who worked for my vet. My OH looked at me funny the one day he helped me load and i handed him the bottle, he said he didn't need a drink. Was amazed when he saw the results though. Never tried it on another horse though so might be a one off solution but anything worth a try.
 
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