Very interesting article

Very interesting. A good article. It describes Flora well. She is precisely this type of dog that wont tolerate rudeness. She always gives ample warning to anyone trying to be rude and really stands up for herself if they persist. I dont blame her either, why should she allow another dog to bound over and shove a nose up her wotsit without so much as proper introduction first?! She doesnt do it to other dogs, she knows its wrong and she knows the correct way to introduce herself...more over she recognises 'no I dont want to talk/play with you thanks' and backs off straight away. Unfortunately she still gets labelled at my ringcraft club as being aggressive, shes not at all...just completely intolerant of out of control rude dogs! Intrestingly I have never met so many out of control rude dogs as on the showing circuit!
 
I wish I had read it 6 months ago! I had figured most of it out myself now. Working Flora in an environment where 99% of the dogs are polite and well trained (and nobody cares if she tells the rude ones off becasue they can all see that they are rude!) has helped her and me immensely. Her behaviour no longer bothers me whatsoever, I consider her to be well within her rights to have a go when confronted inappropriately and the rest of the time shes lovely with other dogs. Also, when I let her get on with it out working she did have a few scraps the first part of the first day....she didnt do those dogs any damage at all, it really was just 'get lost you rude tit!' Shes barely grumbled at anyone the rest of the season, only one new comer that she considered rude! Now I really dont care what anyone says if she has a pop...if she can work alongside 30 odd dogs, get chucked up in the back of trucks with strange dogs, sit in a beaters wagon with strange dogs without complaint, I'm sorry shes not dog aggressive! Now Tilly...thats a different story!
 
Oh and I didnt explain that about 6 months ago her 'aggression' was getting worse rather than better despite my attempts at bettering it...why? because she had got to the stage where the majority of dogs she met were out showing or at ringcraft and the majority of dogs out showing and at ringcraft were bloody rude! She was getting to the stage where she wouldnt tolerate any dog coming vaguely close to say hello, even if they were trying to say hello politely. Intrestingly I always maintained (and it had me really puzzled) that any dog could sit touching her as long as it was percieved by her to be under its owners control and didnt try to talk her. So any dog commanded to sit next to her or walk to heel brushing past her was ok by her as long as it wasnt trying to communicate with her! Now of course the majority in her life has turned, she now knows more polite dogs than rude ones thanks to working, so she no longer considers needing to make her stance clear to every dog she meets. She now gives all dogs a chance to introduce themselves properly before jumping the gun and assuming they are going to get up in her face.
 
A very interesting piece. It raises a lot of questions... Such as when is aggression a justified warning, or a problematic behaviour? Do we allow the dogs to sort it out themselves or step in? etc.

I will admit that Loki is a 'rude' dog. His initial greetings are always very polite. However, he seems to have a threshold for this, at which point he will go from 'polite hello' to 'well you tolerated that, so it is now playtime! I will jump all over you, then you do the same, k?'. Bearing in mind this is from observation, and I have minimal training in observational technique :)

My way of dealing with this has always been to put the lead on or grab his collar when there is another dog, until I've spoken with the owner and had a chance to gauge their own dogs' reaction to 'strangers'. I've always considered this to be the best option as there are hordes of dogs where I walk that frankly do not want 40kg of daft puppy attempting to bounce on their head. Neither would I. So we have the greeting and then when Loki tips over to 'excited' it's time to go.... with much fuss and stick throwing for his polite behaviour.

On the other hand though it can be a double edged sword. Not one of the 'grumpy' dogs we come across is ever, ever on a lead. Many are elderly and simply want to keep their distance, others are fear aggressive. That's fair enough, and understandable as their dog will often try to avoid another dog. However, we have narrow paths here, with poor visibility a few feet ahead (thank you bushes, shrubs and trees). So it isn't always possible to have the younger dog on a lead before you bump into the older, more intolerant version! And in a way I think this is a good thing.... young bold dog gets a snap... and learns an important lesson.... Leave me alone means LEAVE ME ALONE! :)

It's tough with dogs I think to get the balance right between 'responsible, get the lead out' and 'they're dogs, they'll sort it between themselves, probably without bloodshed; but with added snarls and growls for drama' :p Being off-lead I suspect is important for your dog to learn which other dogs are potential play mates, and who aren't... and yet you have to be aware that many of the dogs running past you, off-lead and therefore you would assume 'sociable' have very different limits as to what they will tolerate as 'play behaviours'.
 
Oh my god how true to life is that article. How many times have I been tutted at for not 'correcting' Oz for snapping at a rude dog who has got in his face and paid no attention to the warnings it was given till he finally snapped (well what do you expect he is a snappy JRT after all - has no doubt been uttered in my absence).
 
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As an 'add-on', it's very rare to meet another dog walker where I am that will stick a lead on their dog no matter how unsociable their dog is (from 'bog off, you rude xxxx! All the way to 'I will eat anything that is within 100 feet of position). I'm a rarity in getting the lead out/grabbing my dog into a heel, to the point where if another owner does the same it always leads to a conversation :) Which is nice, because walking a GSD here seems to make you a pariah of sorts :rolleyes:

I've noticed of the dogs here there seems to be 3 main types:

1) I'll snarl at you, and you better not come too close (despite the narrow paths!) I'm usually a little elderly or infirm somehow, and I like my space (I think this is completely reasonable btw, not bemoaning dogs in this category at all!) Loki is allowed a polite hello if the other dog will accept it. If not, we attempt a 'heel' past with promises that I may throw the stick. At some point. Perhaps.

2) I am a little mental. I will attack any other dog that appears in the same woodland area as me. I'm not on a lead, possibly so that my owner can refute any claims for damage. I will not warn you not to approach me. I will instead seek you out like a damned missile, from half a mile away, and attempt to murder your puppy.

3) OMG! you're a puppy?! I'm a puppy too! The chances! What madness! Let's chase each other round and round and round and round and round and round. This is the best! See you next time!

They are in order of 'most likely to meet'. :o I do hate the off-lead reactive dogs. We've met two in the space of two weeks; both of which had Loki on his back and screaming and still would not lay off. And now he shows the odd tendency to be defensive when he's on a lead.... which to fix takes loads of loitering around looking for understanding dog walkers to spend time with us :(

OMG, I think I've reached my essay quota for the week.
 
Just further musing that my little Ellie (who is always off lead and never has got in a fight) APPEARS to me to be very tolerant of other dogs but actually she isnt...if she deems them rude she gives them a little woof in their face (she often has to jump to do this love her little short arse!) its exactly the same as what Flora does but not as extravagant, Floras response is more dramatic thats all. I have had owners glare at me when Ellie does that little high pitched woof in their dogs face and I have never once thought Ellie was in the wrong or behaving badly. Its a good tactic though...she should have her own dog school and teach it! The other dogs always look really shocked like 'WHAT WAS THAT' and she normally gives them a second chance to be more polite.
 
I could not walk in areas with type 2's round every corner Pix! You are incredibley tolerant! I would have murdered someone if that was a regular occurance!
 
Vizslak said:
I could not walk in areas with type 2's round every corner Pix! You are incredibley tolerant! I would have murdered someone if that was a regular occurance!
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I have no choice! It's daily! Last week it was a rottie and a yellow lab, We've been lucky this week. I sometimes think I should just leave Loki off lead to be rude, at least then he won't develop into being reactive on lead :o

But what really makes me cringe is the worst offender in the area. Some young lad who has his two staffs on a lead, and his big, black GSD off-lead. This dog will home in on you from miles away. It will race towards you and go absolutely bat**** while he screams at it from a distance. I'd mind less but he's beggerin' up the breed image in these parts, and I'm treated with enough suspicion as it is :mad:

To be honest, I'm generally relaxed about huge, screaming dogs. In fact I prefer big dogs. But this one sets me on edge a little, she's not just 'telling off' Loki, she's making sure I don't move too. And she means business :confused: God knows I love big dogs but this one needs sticking in a lead and being properly worked in a safe environment. Right now she is a liability and it's sad to see as a breed convert :(
 
Oz is the same on lead as off lead, but he escalates much quicker from avoidance to 'bog off!', but he still demonstrates all stages 1) averts look 2) Low growl 3) Lip curls and increased growl 4) Snap 5) Snapping and lunging.
 
Pix I think something similar must have happenned to Darcy. When she meets a new dog she has a hissy fit which I was told about from breed rescue. Diesel is totally different and is always fr iendly. I had started taking her to dog training but packed it in after she was attacked by a collie. I have signed up for a new one in March.

I just worry that this might turn into dog aggression and just want to sort it out.

She has met all my friends dogs and after the initial hissy fits she realisesthey are not going to eat her she is fine.
 
Its strange reading this after watching madam out and about with other dogs yesterday I have always wondered why she approachs other dogs with her tail down and ears pretty much flattened, she always approaches slowly too and doesnt really react until she sees what the other dog wants to do, if the other dog stands there tail wagging at speed and starts bouncing around she joins in and will happily play and chase until they are knackered.
She cannot stand other dogs coming over and shoving their noses up her lady bits she puts up with it for a couple of minutes and if the other dog persists she will growl if the dog continues she will then snap, after the first couple of times of seeing this i now try and take her out of the situation before it gets to that point.
If another dog gets in her face barking, growling, snapping or otherwise she does not react she takes herself out of the situation.
Her weirdest thing is she meets about 4-5 siberians over the park and she hates them and will growl as soon as she sees them but from reading that article i now understand its normally because they are going mental, throwing themselves about/on the floor, trying to jump all over her/sticking their noses up her backend basically dogs that have not been taught any manners by their owners. I have always found this weird as she lives with two siberians sees masses of them every weekend at rallies and absolutely loves to play around with them but then none of them do what the dogs over the park do.
She was brought up by a well managed pack of 14 dogs until she was 10 weeks old and it gave her a great start in doggy manners I have not had to do too much more with her.
 
:( thats really sad and ridiculous that he repeatedly allows that to happen. Its a tricky thing dog walking with so many morons around! I dont see many round here but when I do they are generally clueless to any etiquiette in terms of walking dogs! It really irks me. I did have to laugh at one of our more ridiculous encounters the other day though. Two ladies I have never seen before with a spaniel. I clocked them miles off, put Tilly back on lead, Milo was already on longline and left the other 2 girls off seeing that they had no intention of recalling the spaniel that was busy quartering the field at a million miles an hour. We got near and my two girls went over to where the dog was to say hello. They got within a few feet when it yelped as if being murdered and pegged it! The girls stopped and looked bemused for a second and then bumbled after it, I was laughing my tits off and just about to recall them when the women started shrieking 'call them off, call them off' in a very high pitched dramatic mannar...they were chasing each other in circles by this point anyway and had lost intrest in talking to the wimpy spaniel! This was so ridiculous it made me laugh even harder and rendered me unable to squeak let alone recall. It also greatly concerned Flora as she thought the lady was dying or something so stopped playing and ran towards her to check she was ok, followed by Ellie, who wouldnt care if the woman was dying and wouldnt get near enough to check but obviously thought she should go as back up! This made the woman go up another octive in her screams of 'call them off' which caused Flora to stop short of her, look at her with the most puzzled expression for a few seconds and high tail it back to the safety of me who by this point was actually crying with laughter! Takes all sorts! Most of the plonkers we meet are clueless in a far more dangerous way unfortunately!
 
3) OMG! you're a puppy?! I'm a puppy too! The chances! What madness! Let's chase each other round and round and round and round and round and round. This is the best! See you next time!

Lol Pix - love this! :D

Very interesting article. It's true that Pads responds negatively to certain dogs when on a lead down to the field at the back of mine (never off lead on usual walks). And what do I do? constantly scan for these dogs and adopt the 'death grip' - it's true! I know not to but try to be one step ahead of him I suppose, subconciously making it worse :(
 
mollichop said:
3) OMG! you're a puppy?! I'm a puppy too! The chances! What madness! Let's chase each other round and round and round and round and round and round. This is the best! See you next time!

QUOTE]

That would be Henry:o

I would describe him as polite in his initial approach to the point of being submissive (think lying flat on the floor), but he will then try to initiate play, virtually no matter what:rolleyes: Still, could be worse, and he does tend to get the hint to sod off when the other dog doesn't want to know. I think he just expects the whole world to be his buddy (up to and including bees' nests, did I mention the bees' nests?) **facepalm**
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What an intereting article! There are so many permutations to dog behaviour it's quite difficult (well for me at least!) to figure them out correctly so it's really interesting to read such a detailed analysis.

In light of this I think Betty is our pack disciplinarian. She is always less tolerant of the new puppy, doesn't allow rough play around her, etc. but has never hurt anyone, just a lot of noise! Funnily enough when they are older she seems to let them play rough a lot more but has a special bark that still means 'pack it in now that's enough'.
 
I got told the JRT I am looking after was a "little f* C*er" when a ladies two staffies barged right up to her and practically knocked her over as a response she showed her teeth and snapped...... I told her that if her dogs had approached nicely and not at speed, and two of em, she would of just played.....

Really interesting article|!
 
Spudlet said:
That would be Henry:o

I would describe him as polite in his initial approach to the point of being submissive (think lying flat on the floor), but he will then try to initiate play, virtually no matter what:rolleyes: Still, could be worse, and he does tend to get the hint to sod off when the other dog doesn't want to know. I think he just expects the whole world to be his buddy (up to and including bees' nests, did I mention the bees' nests?) **facepalm**
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That sounds very familiar..... Apart from the whole bees nest thing! :eek:
 
Interesting article, we have a few too many "friendly" dogs around here too! My girls are friendly, know how to approach other dogs without being "in their faces" and also know to back off if a dog isn't interested.

They play roughly with each other, but are far more controlled playing around dogs they don't know, until given the right "play" signals I guess.

If any one moans about my dogs telling an overfriendly dog off they will get a piece of my mind!!

Last week I had a bizarre moment where a black lab came roaring up to two of mine, they all started to say hello, my oldest Tilly, got a bit playful but not in this dogs face I could just see from her head and tail carriage she was up to play and this dog went for her, really aggressive snapping and barking, she just backed away at 100miles an hour screaming (literally screaming, never heard her make that kind of noise before). Goodness knows what came over this dog because I saw nothing in any of the dogs actions that should have caused this change. There was no bum sniffing, no jumping, snapping or "in your face" behaviour from Tilly, in fact, there never is, she has that best manners in the world.

Surprise surprise the owner was a long way away and made no hurry to get to us quickly despite the noise and no word of apology, GRRRRRRRRR!!!

The next day we met another black lab dog that wanted to come and say hello, Tilly was having none of it and scarpered as soon as she saw him heading her way! She seems to have settled back down now though.
 
I tend to go for the 'let them get on with it' approach. I sometimes suspect Henry missed out on some of his socialisation as he is a bit bumptious at times (mind you, that might just be him!) but since his default position in the face of a telling off is to flee back to me looking chastised it's not a huge worry tbh.

Apart from when bees are involved, when I adopt the 'running away screaming like a girl' approach.;)
 
To me, the article highlights how little most dog owners actually know about animal behaviour, and specifically canine behaviour.

I grew up with a dog who'd been badly frightened as a pup by a loose dog, on her own on a long lead (to keep her away from the veg patch!) in our garden. She regarded all dogs larger than her as a threat thereafter, if she was on the lead. Off lead, she was fine, as she knew she could get away if needed. Smaller dogs were tolerated and played with - unless they got a bit rude, and she had to tell them off! Not once did any of my family confuse her 'telling off' of a playmate, with her fear aggression on the lead. Totally different, and what she did on the lead varied according to who was holding the other end. Both of those were also different from the 'stay away' growl and ears back, directed at 'suspicious' (by her standards) strangers when she and I were out together. That, again, didn't occur if she was with an adult, and was about protecting the child she was with. We had a deal of sorts - I assertively told any loose big dogs that came near us to 'go away' or 'go home' or got their owners to call them back if they were with them - she told any dodgy looking human strangers to 'go away'. We spent many happy summers exploring the world together, and she became very reliable off-lead in every situation.

It's not just about socializing either - my current JR was born in a multi-dog household, spent at least part of every day with 7-8 other JRs for the first two years of her life, and now with two bigger dogs, and is very well versed in doggy manners, pack dominance etc. Does that make her amazing with dogs three times her size that run up to her barking? Um, no! They're not in her pack, they're 3x bigger than her, and a playbite/roll-over from them would hurt! She barks and tries to climb up my leg if near me, or legs it and tries to circle back round to be picked up if not.

Had a priceless one recently - dog, horse and I happily mooching down bridleway past field with 3 labs helping their owner poo-pick. I say hi, dog stays near me as she always does, we mooch on in peace. The labs bound over to say hi, and get a little over-familiar and rude so my girl hops through the barbed wire to the field opposite to get away from their advances. They see this as a game and give chase. Owner powerless to call them back. A good 50m later they finally desist and i pick up a shaking, badly frightened JRT. Response of lab owner? Oh, I didn't know your dog was nervous. They only wanted to play! SHE WASN'T but she IS NOW!
 
Really good article. My JRT is just like this, she is fine with all other dogs until they invade her personal space by jumping on her head or something rude like that and she is quick to put them back in her place.
I never thought of her as being aggressive, I think it is easier to spot in a smaller dog and you can see them physically getting intimidated, if you like.

My GSD used to be very tolerant of 'rude' dogs until he was attacked by an unruly Rottie, now he is much less tolerant and won't have his personal space invaded. I would never call him aggressive though I am mindful of how this may look to other people and am careful about putting him on a lead when I see another large ish dog coming towards us.
 
good article, although I'm becoming more and more amazed by how some classes are run... and by those who clearly know bugger all!!!
 
Very good article, our pup got told off more than once in the park, when recall went out the window and the dog in question wasn't impressed, I always apologised to the owner of the other dog and insisted their dog had done nothing wrong in telling her where to get off. She is now, well most of the time polite to dogs she meets only playing when they want to as well.
 
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