Very strong horse help!

[Reacher]

So I mentioned this in the weekend plans thread but decided to start a separate thread I’m the hope of advice / encouragement/ @rse kicking ( delete as appropriate)
Back story briefly is 2 years ago a bought a sensible horse suitable for a middle aged lady (grrr) having had a few years riding various horses with different issues, getting bucked off, losing confidence, injuries etc.
Bought a 15hh welsh x confidence giver 12 yo ( now 14) previously owned by a PC teenager who had outgrown him. Horse had wasted back muscles and we spent a good year rehabbing and building them back up. Regular weekly lesson from the start, changed instructors early this year to a BD instructor who is taking me back to square one and undoing my bad habits, and helping me reschool him.
Did a couple of RC events back end of last year,!arena eventing over winter, more RC this season.
Took him to eventers derby event (unaffiliated over BE80 course but no dressage) in May, horse absolutely loved it jumping clear but soooo strong. Entered a second one and he was so strong I had to steer him into a hedge to stop after jump 2 of XC and withdraw
Did RC Working hunter last Sunday, in 2’3” as warm up for 2’9”- started off sedately but around the final jump tanked off. Was meant to canter the long side showing extension, my plan was to just keep him under control, horse had other plans and showed more extension than necessary.... took a lap to pull up. I withdrew at that point and didn’t do the other class.
In lessons we are working on keeping him off his forehand, half halts and not getting into a pulling match - which is what tends to happen.
Horse is a lovely kind boy, not a mean bone in his body, just finds it all massively fun and can’t see any point in listening to the monkey on his back telling him to slow down!
He is fine hacking, is better controlled in lessons as doesn’t have the excitement of other horses flying about,
Frustrating as he is fit and up to event at 80 cm - but I can’t do it with no brakes.
Bit wise We have tried a Waterford (no effect) and a NS elevator (overbends).
Feed is small amount of speedibeet and micro- linseed and salt and minerals.
I’m hoping milliepops will be kind enough to help embed a video of last Sunday’s excitement

 

[milliepops]

[video=youtube_share;byIoJwb3-q4]https://youtu.be/byIoJwb3-q4[/video]

done

 

[JillA]

They are ALL stronger than us if it comes to a contest of strength - my advice would be to ditch the flash (or is it a grackle?) and train train then train some more. Work on riding him around and between jumps and pop the occasional one when he is balanced and listening, then go back to the boring between jumps bit again. Over and over until it is all part of life's rich pattern.
And retrain him to respond to your seat and weight rather than just the chunk of metal in his mouth - get him to downward transition by weighting the saddle, from trot to walk then from canter to trot (use the voice to give him a clue what it means). And carry on the half halts (seat!!) and circles and serpentines to rebalance him, he does fall on his forehand and then leans on your hands

 

[scats]

What other bits have you tried?

As JillA says, this is all something that is going to need training, but sometimes you do need a helping hand for a while. The being reluctant to stop or slow due to excitement or keenness for the job is one thing, but that horse noticeably increases speed and tanks off with you after that final fence and that is totally unnacceptable.

 

[SpringArising]

I empathise - I have an incredibly strong horse at the moment and they are such hard work.

Some quick things I noticed -

1 - he does look very forward, but he also does come back to you if you watch closely. He doesn't look like a set-neck-and-go type, he is still flexing and coming back on his hocks at a lot of moments.

2 - he doesn't look happy accepting the contact at all. His mouth is constantly open trying to get away from the bit.


What's he like in the ring at a show, doing flatwork only?

ETA - I just watched the end of the video and take back my first comment What a monkey!

 

[Reacher]

Hi JilllA
Thanks very much, in lessons my instructor is (trying) to retrain us as you describe using seat etc in half halts and using leg into an elastic contact and not hanging on his mouth.
Trouble is in times of excitement it all goes a bit pear shaped!
Yes it is s grackle, though usually I ride him in a Micklem (which I don’t do up right)
Perhaps I am being too hasty wanting to take him to events until it becomes second nature
Ps just to mention, re training, , instructor competes BD at advanced medium as is very correct - and is doing her best to retrain both of us!!

They are ALL stronger than us if it comes to a contest of strength - my advice would be to ditch the flash (or is it a grackle?) and train train then train some more. Work on riding him around and between jumps and pop the occasional one when he is balanced and listening, then go back to the boring between jumps bit again. Over and over until it is all part of life's rich pattern.
And retrain him to respond to your seat and weight rather than just the chunk of metal in his mouth - get him to downward transition by weighting the saddle, from trot to walk then from canter to trot (use the voice to give him a clue what it means). And carry on the half halts (seat!!) and circles and serpentines to rebalance him, he does fall on his forehand and then leans on your hands

 

[Reacher]

Thanks very much Milliepops

 

[SpringArising]

One thing I did just notice watching back more closely, is that your lower leg doesn't look completely stable. It's most noticeable at 1:58 - it looks as if you are inadvertently nudging him on. He had no excuse to tank to that extreme, but it was just something I picked up on, which may have been confusing him further. Another thing is that going round he had a consistent contact which he was using to pull against. Next time it might be worth half halting in a very extreme fashion so he doesn't have anything to pull on.

 

[DirectorFury]

Could you try the elevator with two reins and a curb? So when he's being polite just ride off the snaffle rein (so he shouldn't overbend) but when he gets rude you've got the curb rein for backup.
I'm just suggesting this as a temporary measure while you're training him because it's not really safe to have him going round like that!

I also think he doesn't look very happy in his mouth, would you be willing to try a hackamore?

 

[Reacher]

Hi Scats
Thanks for your reply. He came in a Wilkie French link. We tried a Waterford ( he is wearing Baucher Waterford in the video) and a neue Schule elevator but the poll pressure made him ovetbend. RI is against using anything with poll pressure for this reason.i have a NS Nelson gag arrived awaiting trial.

What other bits have you tried?

As JillA says, this is all something that is going to need training, but sometimes you do need a helping hand for a while. The being reluctant to stop or slow due to excitement or keenness for the job is one thing, but that horse noticeably increases speed and tanks off with you after that final fence and that is totally unnacceptable.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I found a NS Universal, with curb strap and 2 reins very effective on a strong horse who like to bear down on the rider's hands but could also lift her head up above the contact, if the mood took her. I also used a PeeWee bit on a very strong Clydie and on an ID, just because she went well in it. I lent the PeeWee to an eventer for her very strong yungster until she had trained him to listen to instructions from the rider. She really rated it.

 

[Reacher]

Hi Spring Arising
Yeah, he is a cheeky monkey!
Yes you are no doubt correct about my lower leg, instructor is emphasising the need for independence of hand and leg. In half halts she teaches me to use seat, leg (and hand) simultaneously (leg being to get him of forehand) - I wondered if the leg part confuses him as he wasn’t taught that as a youngster?

You are right about the contact - instructor is trying to get me to learn to ride into an elastic contact with the half halts - again i think part of the problem is as it goes pear shaped (ie faster and faster!) I panic and go back to old habits with the contact.

Ps re your query about how he goes on the flat - in arena or lesson he goes like a kn@ckered RS horse as it is boring! On grass at a computer he is strong but not as bad as jumping so I guess all the above advice still applies on the flat
Maybe I should post another video to critique (let me pour a stiff drink first!!)

I empathise - I have an incredibly strong horse at the moment and they are such hard work.

Some quick things I noticed -

1 - he does look very forward, but he also does come back to you if you watch closely. He doesn't look like a set-neck-and-go type, he is still flexing and coming back on his hocks at a lot of moments.

2 - he doesn't look happy accepting the contact at all. His mouth is constantly open trying to get away from the bit.


What's he like in the ring at a show, doing flatwork only?

ETA - I just watched the end of the video and take back my first comment What a monkey!

 

[Reacher]

Hi DF
Thanks, That’s a good thought about using the elevator with 2 reins, I have only tried it once in a SJ lesson and haven’t tried it in exciting situations so perhaps should give that’s a try.
(Yes I realised all bitting advice are intended to be temporary solutions while retraining take place )

Yes you are right he does open his mouth an no doubt that is due to my contact getting too strong. In terms of a hackamore hmmm, I’m not experienced in riding bitless, I have ridden him bitless in Micklem competition bridle in arena (even popped over a jump) but never ridden in a hackamore diva little nervous about trying it. . I guess the best approach would be to try it in an arena first before trying in the open ? Could I use it with a conventional bridle on at same time as a back up?

Could you try the elevator with two reins and a curb? So when he's being polite just ride off the snaffle rein (so he shouldn't overbend) but when he gets rude you've got the curb rein for backup.
I'm just suggesting this as a temporary measure while you're training him because it's not really safe to have him going round like that!

I also think he doesn't look very happy in his mouth, would you be willing to try a hackamore?

 

[Reacher]

Hi PaS
Thanks - I had avoided the universal thinking it had poll pressure however using 2 reins is a very good idea as is using curb chain. I think it’s worth trying all options.
Is a peewee similar to an elevator? I’ll have to google it

I found a NS Universal, with curb strap and 2 reins very effective on a strong horse who like to bear down on the rider's hands but could also lift her head up above the contact, if the mood took her. I also used a PeeWee bit on a very strong Clydie and on an ID, just because she went well in it. I lent the PeeWee to an eventer for her very strong yungster until she had trained him to listen to instructions from the rider. She really rated it.

 

[ester]

He likes jumping then

I went autumn hunting in a waterford once, didn't do that again!
Personally even though generally F had a tendency to curl he wouldn't when excited and was best in a dutch gag with a curb strap (just a spare flash!) which stops it over rotating, he'd lean on a pelham a bit much.

It's definitely easy to revert to old habits when it all starts to go a bit wrong, when actually if you could ride more intelligently it might not escalate quite so much.

I have a couple of additional thoughts- how is he to the voice? I like to have a good steady, careful and ho installed as it saves getting into a pulling match sometimes.
I would also consider trying a combination/kineton set up given his reaction to the bit to see if spreading the pressure helps.

 

[Reacher]

Hi Ester
Yeah he certainly likes jumping..... which makes it frustrating that I’m unable to take him out and let him do what he loves best, SJ and XC as I can’t keep him in check.
You are braver than me, I wouldn’t dare take him hunting tho in his youth I believe his teenage owner did- I’d love to know how that went!
You are right I need to work on a voice command - I don’t lunge him as nowhere flat enough in paddock. I should practice voice command out hacking.
Thanks for the other suggestion / I will look into combination / kineton as am not familiar with them.

He likes jumping then

I went autumn hunting in a waterford once, didn't do that again!
Personally even though generally F had a tendency to curl he wouldn't when excited and was best in a dutch gag with a curb strap (just a spare flash!) which stops it over rotating, he'd lean on a pelham a bit much.

It's definitely easy to revert to old habits when it all starts to go a bit wrong, when actually if you could ride more intelligently it might not escalate quite so much.

I have a couple of additional thoughts- how is he to the voice? I like to have a good steady, careful and ho installed as it saves getting into a pulling match sometimes.
I would also consider trying a combination/kineton set up given his reaction to the bit to see if spreading the pressure helps.

 

[DabDab]

No bit suggestions, but in the training front it's circles, circles and more circles! Literally do a 10m circle after every fence until you can feel him landing, sitting back on his hocks and waiting for you. You can start that exercise with poles on the ground when schooling and then build up. Incorporate voice commands too as an extra back-up.

And getting onward bound is one thing but that tank off at the end is really not ok - I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but I'm afraid if that had been one of mine I would have used one rein really blummin hard and sat them on their backside, but then I'm generally of the opinion that I'd rather one firm correction so the horse knows where he stands, than a constant unpleasant battle.

 

[milliepops]

I would also consider trying a combination/kineton set up given his reaction to the bit to see if spreading the pressure helps.

Kineton made my very very strong horse really quite polite for XC and without upping the bitting. It can be an excellent solution for some horses, and if you play with the fitting you can make the bit or noseband come into effect in the order you want. People will say you can't use them with a waterford but I did, on a horse that did not react well to any bit with poll action.

 

[ester]

Frank's not like that just wanted to point out that although in theory it should work for a set the neck a bit type it doesn't always in exciting situations! F is actually more the opposite, he speeds up into jumps but is ok on landing, he also rarely opens his mouth. Yours sees them as an excuse to get faster - but I have known a few ponies like that, that are often always on the edge of a tank as they get a bit overcome with themselves.

To a certain extent whatever the bitting arrangement for now even if it does have some poll pressure you need to put yourself in a position that is safer so that you can work on it with both of you staying relaxed etc.

Also he just has some similarities in that I bought F at 12, out of a pony club home (she was a pretty good rider) but don't be put off by the time lines for improvement, it was frustrating that by the time I reckoned we'd come to an understanding about how we did jumping he'd got a bit old but we did enjoy ourselves in the meantime.

 

[Wheels]

It sounds like you have a good flatwork instructor - how much jumping do you do in your lessons?

How much do you work on improving the quality of the canter? On rhythm?

To me this is not a bitting issue, it is a schooling one. Of course your flatwork is very important but so is training over poles and jumps, in the school, XC, arena hires, course hires after a show etc all are schooling mechanisms and where I would be focussing my efforts.

Agree with the above about putting circles in - you can circle before, circle after, circle between two obstacles (if there is enough room). Do not let him jump if he is rushing, keep circling until calm.

You can also halt a few strides before, a few strides after and in between 2 obstacles (but make sure you can do these transitions easily on the flat before you do them jumping)

You could do jump, one stride to 3 trot poles to help the horse understand it's back to trot.

You also really need to work on the canter rhythm and changebility with you in control. In the video you go from him tanking to you bringing him back to an unbalanced slow canter, his back looks tight and he looks tense. You can work on the canter in all your sessions, transitions within the pace of very forward to slow so that he learns you control the pace.

There are many many other exercises, endless pole exercises, endless types of grids and mini courses, if the competing in jumping is something you really want to do then you may think about getting a proper show jumping coach for your jumping and sticking with your current instructor for flatwork

 

[ester]

It's interesting about the circling, I do think it depends on the pony as some it seems to wind up more but then the halting before/after helps them more .

I'd agree re. different instructors might helpful.

 

[DirectorFury]

Hi DF
Thanks, That’s a good thought about using the elevator with 2 reins, I have only tried it once in a SJ lesson and haven’t tried it in exciting situations so perhaps should give that’s a try.
(Yes I realised all bitting advice are intended to be temporary solutions while retraining take place )

Yes you are right he does open his mouth an no doubt that is due to my contact getting too strong. In terms of a hackamore hmmm, I’m not experienced in riding bitless, I have ridden him bitless in Micklem competition bridle in arena (even popped over a jump) but never ridden in a hackamore diva little nervous about trying it. . I guess the best approach would be to try it in an arena first before trying in the open ? Could I use it with a conventional bridle on at same time as a back up?

The temporary line was just so I didn't get shouted at, not aimed at you! I'd add a curb to whatever gag-type bit you use just to stop it over rotating.
The Micklem is quite a gentle bitless as I think it's either a crossunder or a sidepull - the hackamore is a bit stronger than either of these. I'd definitely put it on top of a normal bridle (no noseband on normal bridle tho) as emergency insurance the first few times and definitely in the school first! Go for an English hackamore rather than a German. I'd echo MP and esters suggestion of trying a kineton too but you'll need to find someone who can help you fit it the first time.

I also agree with DabDab about dealing with him tanking off at the end - it's naughty and bl**dy dangerous!

I would also work on boring him to death with pole work and grids so that jumping is no longer *mega* exciting.

 

[DirectorFury]

Duplicate post :eyeroll:

 

[Reacher]

Hi Dabdab
Thanks, yes instructor has me doing turns and circles when he is starting to run on but perhaps I’m going to have to go back to basics with poles on the ground and circle as when jumping anything bigger it all gets too exciting too quickly and we get past the point of no return.
My instructor has mentioned the pulley stop though it’s not something I’ve ever been taught. I agree I would rather have a firm correction than a protracted battle. I took horse to a large field last night to canter around and see if pulley stop would work but after a couple of laps he still took off and had a bit of a battle to stop him.
Messaged instructor this morning who thinks perhaps I’m not applying it correctly so let’s hope so as it would be a useful extra tool to have.

The tank off at the end gives you a flavour of what happened in our recent XCs.

No bit suggestions, but in the training front it's circles, circles and more circles! Literally do a 10m circle after every fence until you can feel him landing, sitting back on his hocks and waiting for you. You can start that exercise with poles on the ground when schooling and then build up. Incorporate voice commands too as an extra back-up.

And getting onward bound is one thing but that tank off at the end is really not ok - I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but I'm afraid if that had been one of mine I would have used one rein really blummin hard and sat them on their backside, but then I'm generally of the opinion that I'd rather one firm correction so the horse knows where he stands, than a constant unpleasant battle.

 

[Wheels]

It's interesting about the circling, I do think it depends on the pony as some it seems to wind up more but then the halting before/after helps them more .

I'd agree re. different instructors might helpful.

They're all different so obviously you have to take account of individual needs.

However if I had one that got wound up circling then I would work on it as it is just too useful a tool not to have in the box! I would have jumps set up in the arena all of the time and flat work around them until horse was no longer getting wound up as Jill mentioned earlier. From a safety aspect it is imperative that you can circle away - say someone turns in front of the practise fence or you notice something is sticking up out of a cross country fence or for any other myriad of reasons

I should have added to my earlier post too that if your horse legs it on the flat like in the vid then circling away will help to slow down without getting into a tug of war, you just need to make sure the circle is small enough to make a difference without being too small that the horse might severely lose balance (although a little loss of balance can bring them back to trot very quickly and without having to get heavy with the hands)

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

OP, I haven't read all the posts, but 2 things helped me stop CF (bless his late fuzzy face), and that was a simple 3 ring with a kineton and 2 reins - and only using bottom rein for a hard check (also telling him 'ho-stop' at same time) or a double bridle.
He'd hack in anything on his own, just was a right tit at parties.
He was superlight in the double, but I only used it sparingly, keeping the Kineton and 3 ring for much of the time. At home he hacked solo in a simple french link.......

 

[Thea]

I too have an incredibly strong horse that became impossible to jump as she just took off and thrusted herself at whatever we were jumping at home or at shows.

I’ve had my horse since she was 4, now 10 and she is correctly schooled and polite on the flat in a snaffle with us just starting to play around at half pass. She has jumped and hunted since I’ve had her but finds it all very exciting no matter how much we do it!

I can just about hold her in a Tom Thumb to xc but show jumping was a complete car crash and I’ve tried every jumping/pole/circle exercise and bit possible! The only thing that now works is jumping her in a double bridle, so much so that I can virtually ride off the snaffle rein and it is now enjoyable rather than being towed around by a train crashing through everything!

Have you tried a double bridle? I found that she instantly respected me (probably because of all the ironwork in her mouth!!) and listened. before she used to concertina her neck in and thrust with her chest and I had no control regardless of bit/bridle combination. Now shes a different horse, she really lifts her back when jumping and I have the control to make her sit and wait. The only thing is you do have to have very good hands, being caught with a double bridle in the mouth isn’t like being occasionally caught with a snaffle.

 

[Reacher]

Thanks MP I’m going to make a list of things to try (schooling and bits) and will put kineton on the list. This is all very helpful as instructor hasn’t advised on bits to try.

Kineton made my very very strong horse really quite polite for XC and without upping the bitting. It can be an excellent solution for some horses, and if you play with the fitting you can make the bit or noseband come into effect in the order you want. People will say you can't use them with a waterford but I did, on a horse that did not react well to any bit with poll action.

 

[Reacher]

Haha , I thought Id get shouted at but everyone is being very gentle!

Thanks re the hackamore advice - someone had offered to lend me a hackamore to try so that is on the To Do list.

I really want to deal with the tanking - it has frightened the life out of me more than once including the time I had to steer him into a big hedge to stop XC ! (but strangely it only really started in early summer and wasn’t such a problem last year )

Will do my best to bore him to death jumping tho it seems to be the combination of open spaces/ lots of horses charging about combined with jumping on grass that is the catalyst.

The temporary line was just so I didn't get shouted at, not aimed at you! I'd add a curb to whatever gag-type bit you use just to stop it over rotating.
The Micklem is quite a gentle bitless as I think it's either a crossunder or a sidepull - the hackamore is a bit stronger than either of these. I'd definitely put it on top of a normal bridle (no noseband on normal bridle tho) as emergency insurance the first few times and definitely in the school first! Go for an English hackamore rather than a German. I'd echo MP and esters suggestion of trying a kineton too but you'll need to find someone who can help you fit it the first time.

I also agree with DabDab about dealing with him tanking off at the end - it's naughty and bl**dy dangerous!

I would also work on boring him to death with pole work and grids so that jumping is no longer *mega* exciting.

 

[Bernster]

So I was thinking ok, forward and strong but coming back and she’s holding him ok then it got to the last bit and I did wonder when you were going to stop! Well done for all your work and training and he looks like a very smart fella.

I never quite cracked it with my mare before she went onto lighter work but I did have some success with a universal, flash, martingale and curb so I do think a change in bit and tack might help in the short term as you work through this in training. My next stop was a Tom Thumb but sadly she became unsound at that point so I never did try it. We did improve with jumping with training though and I did love how keen she was, she never missed a fence, it’s just that she preferred to go at them at a speed that I found uncomfortable!