Very strong horse help!

[SpringArising]

I know I shouldn't but I keep coming back to this video and having a really good chuckle, he really was a little ****** for doing that to you!

 

[DabDab]

It's interesting about the circling, I do think it depends on the pony as some it seems to wind up more but then the halting before/after helps them more .

I'd agree re. different instructors might helpful.

Haha, yes if they've cottoned on to it just being a large spin But I mean proper circling - like any exercise its not what you do it's the way that you do it
....But yes, Welsh ponies whipping round in tight circles like a terrier excited about being fed is definitely a phenomenon

 

[ester]

He's not eating anything likely to send him a bit high is he?

 

[Reacher]

Hi Wheels
That is all really good advice and food for thought. I probably didn’t explain my flatwork instructor has been giving me jumping lessons since the May issues, on grass as that is where we have most problems. Focusing on rhythm , keeping it the same whether terrain uphill or downhill, trying to keep balanced and not getting on forehand.
I guess you are right a SJ coach would be fantastic- unfortunately I’m a bit limited where I live as to availability of good pro help, for someone like you describe I’d have nearly a 2 hour drive which is ok for a clinic but difficult for regular lessons which is probably what we need
You’ve given me a load to think about , thank you

It sounds like you have a good flatwork instructor - how much jumping do you do in your lessons?

How much do you work on improving the quality of the canter? On rhythm?

To me this is not a bitting issue, it is a schooling one. Of course your flatwork is very important but so is training over poles and jumps, in the school, XC, arena hires, course hires after a show etc all are schooling mechanisms and where I would be focussing my efforts.

Agree with the above about putting circles in - you can circle before, circle after, circle between two obstacles (if there is enough room). Do not let him jump if he is rushing, keep circling until calm.

You can also halt a few strides before, a few strides after and in between 2 obstacles (but make sure you can do these transitions easily on the flat before you do them jumping)

You could do jump, one stride to 3 trot poles to help the horse understand it's back to trot.

You also really need to work on the canter rhythm and changebility with you in control. In the video you go from him tanking to you bringing him back to an unbalanced slow canter, his back looks tight and he looks tense. You can work on the canter in all your sessions, transitions within the pace of very forward to slow so that he learns you control the pace.

There are many many other exercises, endless pole exercises, endless types of grids and mini courses, if the competing in jumping is something you really want to do then you may think about getting a proper show jumping coach for your jumping and sticking with your current instructor for flatwork

 

[Reacher]

He gets small amount of speedibeet, micro- linseed, salt, handful of Timothy chaff and CalmHealthyHorse minerals. Grazing overnight, in turnout pen with hay through day.
(The minerals have plenty of magnesium in them)
I think he’s gone from having a sore back with wasted muscles 2 years ago) to being muscled like a bullock and feeling very well in himself!
(He has physio and saddle fitter every 6 months and every time they say he is better muscles than previous time! )
He is due physio shortly, that reminds me to make an appointment.

 

[Reacher]

Hmmm, I think you’ve just volunteered to take him for schooling.......
:lol:

I know I shouldn't but I keep coming back to this video and having a really good chuckle, he really was a little ****** for doing that to you!

 

[ester]

Filmed of course!

 

[Wheels]

Hi Wheels
That is all really good advice and food for thought. I probably didn’t explain my flatwork instructor has been giving me jumping lessons since the May issues, on grass as that is where we have most problems. Focusing on rhythm , keeping it the same whether terrain uphill or downhill, trying to keep balanced and not getting on forehand.
I guess you are right a SJ coach would be fantastic- unfortunately I’m a bit limited where I live as to availability of good pro help, for someone like you describe I’d have nearly a 2 hour drive which is ok for a clinic but difficult for regular lessons which is probably what we need
You’ve given me a load to think about , thank you

Ah I see, difficult yes when you are not in a location where help is at hand.

101 jumping exercises is very good for giving you exercises, polework and grids especially, might help you to plan your sessions when your instructor is not available.

 

[JFTDWS]

And getting onward bound is one thing but that tank off at the end is really not ok - I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but I'm afraid if that had been one of mine I would have used one rein really blummin hard and sat them on their backside, but then I'm generally of the opinion that I'd rather one firm correction so the horse knows where he stands, than a constant unpleasant battle.

This was my inclination watching your video. I find with many of the strong horses I've had around that you almost want to be completely off the contact (or, rather, it's very passive) and then full on "NO", rather than hanging onto them, trying to correct every stride, and being pulled about like that. I'm also a fan of having double reins on a curb bit, so you can really make the point when you need to, without riding off a stronger bit the entire time.

Obviously training and working him around fences, in open spaces and around other horses is hugely important in terms of training, but it's not always easy to replicate these things in training, depending on the exact triggers.

 

[SpringArising]

Hmmm, I think you’ve just volunteered to take him for schooling.......
:lol:

I've seen the inside of A&E twice in as many months this year - I only have room for one ******!

I don't think anyone would have been able to 'sit him on his backside' on a more serious note though. The one rein stop is a good technique but when you have a horse who completely sets their neck and goes, it doesn't work. All the will in the world can't stop a determined horse no matter what your technique or strength is.

Has the vet been out for a workup? In most of your other videos he looks to be going quite nicely - is it possible he's in pain?

 

[HBII]

Somebody likes their jumping too much. My mare used to be very similar, work on the voice and weight aid has helped to a great extent. I used to get into a pulling war with her, a tug, release and tug works better as they cant 'sit' on the bit against you. Your horse seemed to come back to you when you weren't as braced and gave a bit of a tug on the rein, or the fact you were coming up towards the end of the ring?!
I found a drop noseband worked well for jumping [and a copper D ring roller was used for a couple of times].
Also I had to make jumping less exciting, so lots of repetition, maybe working in the school so the horse has less freedom to do 'one' with you. I also never did enough warm up in canter before jumping, numerous lessons of my instructor shouting 'canter, canter, canter, canter .....' until I felt I 'had' her more. This was also used mid course if things went a bit wayward, along with me singing nelly the elephant to help me breath.
You have a lovely horse good luck!

 

[Reacher]

I am going to see if there are are SJ coaches I could travel to say once a month as I think you are right a good coach would be very helpful. There are plenty of AIs happy to teach SJ - just not any ‘SJ coaches’ around here
I will order that book, thanks

Ah I see, difficult yes when you are not in a location where help is at hand.

101 jumping exercises is very good for giving you exercises, polework and grids especially, might help you to plan your sessions when your instructor is not available.

 

[HBII]

Something else, working on the gears in the canter in a safe place, down the long side, push him on and then bring him back. I always feel more confident having done more fast work, I seem to get used to the feeling a bit more?!
Where about's are you? Maybe someone on here could recommend a SJ instructor?

 

[Reacher]

Yes it’s a bit of a vicious cycle as horse came to me with the tanking already engrained and obviously my bad habit of hanging on proves difficult to unlearn especially in a panic situation and as RI says he leans on my contact and we feed off each other. I think a better rider to help reschool him would be beneficial but again have no one in local area

This was my inclination watching your video. I find with many of the strong horses I've had around that you almost want to be completely off the contact (or, rather, it's very passive) and then full on "NO", rather than hanging onto them, trying to correct every stride, and being pulled about like that. I'm also a fan of having double reins on a curb bit, so you can really make the point when you need to, without riding off a stronger bit the entire time.

Obviously training and working him around fences, in open spaces and around other horses is hugely important in terms of training, but it's not always easy to replicate these things in training, depending on the exact triggers.

 

[Reacher]

I genuinely think it’s high spirits rather than pain - when I first got him he was in pain with his back and he was a completely different ( angry) horse to what he is now. ( he had work up then) Plus ridden and jumped in boring situationseg in a school he is calm. I’ll discuss with RI as to her thoughts.

I've seen the inside of A&E twice in as many months this year - I only have room for one ******!

I don't think anyone would have been able to 'sit him on his backside' on a more serious note though. The one rein stop is a good technique but when you have a horse who completely sets their neck and goes, it doesn't work. All the will in the world can't stop a determined horse no matter what your technique or strength is.

Has the vet been out for a workup? In most of your other videos he looks to be going quite nicely - is it possible he's in pain?

 

[DabDab]

I don't think anyone would have been able to 'sit him on his backside' on a more serious note though. The one rein stop is a good technique but when you have a horse who completely sets their neck and goes, it doesn't work. All the will in the world can't stop a determined horse no matter what your technique or strength is.

I've ridden a lot of strong determined horses and haven't met one yet that I couldn't, but that won't be the same for everyone. And it's largely a case of timing - as soon as I realise I've got zero response to my rein and seat aids. It's about not letting it spiral and being very clear with the horse that they do have to listen. It's only the same theory as using a curb only when you get zero response.

 

[Reacher]

I don't think anyone would have been able to 'sit him on his backside' on a more serious note though. The one rein stop is a good technique but when you have a horse who completely sets their neck and goes, it doesn't work. All the will in the world can't stop a determined horse no matter what your technique or strength is.
?

This is what I keep wondering - even with all the training etc, if he decides he wants to go, as has happened a couple of times, how do I stop him?

To go back to your vet comment, again the local vets aren’t much good but I think I’ll email video to a vet a couple of hours from here and see what he thinks

 

[Wheels]

I am going to see if there are are SJ coaches I could travel to say once a month as I think you are right a good coach would be very helpful. There are plenty of AIs happy to teach SJ - just not any ‘SJ coaches’ around here
I will order that book, thanks

Where abouts are you based?

 

[Reacher]

So maybe I have to stop jumping for now and retrain both of us much better on the seat aids so that it is automatic then use the ‘emergency brake’ when it’s needed

I've ridden a lot of strong determined horses and haven't met one yet that I couldn't, but that won't be the same for everyone. And it's largely a case of timing - as soon as I realise I've got zero response to my rein and seat aids. It's about not letting it spiral and being very clear with the horse that they do have to listen. It's only the same theory as using a curb only when you get zero response.

 

[Reacher]

hi that’s a good suggestion thank you.
I’m in West cumbria - generally need to travel either to Carlisle or Penrith for clinics etc - recommendations most welcome!

Something else, working on the gears in the canter in a safe place, down the long side, push him on and then bring him back. I always feel more confident having done more fast work, I seem to get used to the feeling a bit more?!
Where about's are you? Maybe someone on here could recommend a SJ instructor?

 

[ihatework]

I’m probably going to reiterate pretty much everything that has been said already.

2 issues really - riding and schooling for acceptance of the bit / contact, which it sounds like you are very aware of and working on. It isn’t necessarily going to be about resorting to stronger and stronger bits, but more about trying to make him a bit more comfortable and re-educating both of you in your responses. I’d be looking at tongue relief/ports, and transfer of pressure using as suggested combo noseband/kineton. As much as possible try not to hang on, so you give him a clear release. It will take time.

Then next is to address what can only be described as utter rudeness. Yes it has spiralled to the point of bogging off but you need to be very clear with him this is not tolerated. I’d avoid full courses for the foreseeable. Build up to stringing fences together but the minute he even starts to take a proper hold you want a very sharp stop and take no prisoners. But you must be exceptionally quick to release & reward. You could also consider adding in a rein back here and there.

 

[only_me]

As you are working on the ground work side of things, in the mean time you could look at trying a dr bristol or a Mcguinnes bit? Both are eggbut rings so no poll pressure but the mouthpieces are strong.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well he’s an unruly brat isn’t he until the last bit I was laughing but that bit looked dangerous and unpleasant .
I would definatly have a vet do a basic workup I would want to see his reactions to some hock flexions before I did anything .
I probably would try a controller noseband for jumping in public and keep schooling .

 

[Gloi]

I'm another for whom a kineton noseband was the answer to my thug of a tank.

 

[Reacher]

Sorry I realised I missed your first message!
Yeah he certainly does find it very exciting...yes I do brace against him, it’s turned into a habit for both of us which we are trying to break - am trying to learn to do a sharper half halt rather than a pulling match.
Hmm yes I do get told off for not breathing also - might have to start singing tunelessly....
Thank you, he is normally a complete sweetheart, without a mean bone in his body ( it’s just he rightly thinks I don’t know what I’m doing and should be ignored!) Which is why it’s sych s shamd if we are stopped going out and having fun due to this. Thanks for the ideas to think over!

Somebody likes their jumping too much. My mare used to be very similar, work on the voice and weight aid has helped to a great extent. I used to get into a pulling war with her, a tug, release and tug works better as they cant 'sit' on the bit against you. Your horse seemed to come back to you when you weren't as braced and gave a bit of a tug on the rein, or the fact you were coming up towards the end of the ring?!
I found a drop noseband worked well for jumping [and a copper D ring roller was used for a couple of times].
Also I had to make jumping less exciting, so lots of repetition, maybe working in the school so the horse has less freedom to do 'one' with you. I also never did enough warm up in canter before jumping, numerous lessons of my instructor shouting 'canter, canter, canter, canter .....' until I felt I 'had' her more. This was also used mid course if things went a bit wayward, along with me singing nelly the elephant to help me breath.
You have a lovely horse good luck!

 

[Reacher]

Thanks IHW
My RI emphasises very much the need for the half halt to be very short and the release being what the horse needs to learn to respond correctly. Although I know what I should do I don’t seem to be able to do it!!!!!! I keep wondering though, is it possible to re-educate a horse in his mid teens and set in his ways? (never mind the rider in mid life set in her ways haha)
Re bits thanks, I will add tongue relief / ports to the list of things to look at. I meant to say I sent the video to the bit hire website so hoping for some advice from them.

Thanks I agree we should give up on courses for now and work on a sharp stop (then release/reward). Halting after jumps as was mentioned earlier and rein backs are s great idea, thank you.

I’m probably going to reiterate pretty much everything that has been said already.
2 issues really - riding and schooling for acceptance of the bit / contact, which it sounds like you are very aware of and working on. It isn’t necessarily going to be about resorting to stronger and stronger bits, but more about trying to make him a bit more comfortable and re-educating both of you in your responses. I’d be looking at tongue relief/ports, and transfer of pressure using as suggested combo noseband/kineton. As much as possible try not to hang on, so you give him a clear release. It will take time.

Then next is to address what can only be described as utter rudeness. Yes it has spiralled to the point of bogging off but you need to be very clear with him this is not tolerated. I’d avoid full courses for the foreseeable. Build up to stringing fences together but the minute he even starts to take a proper hold you want a very sharp stop and take no prisoners. But you must be exceptionally quick to release & reward. You could also consider adding in a rein back here and there.

 

[Clodagh]

I never mind hanging gadgets off a horse to help me to stop - they are only ever as severe as your hands. I love a kineton, which I see has been suggested, and if game and you don't mind looks of horror hang a 3 ring on it with 2 reins and a back strap. I liked a 3 ring waterford but also just a plain jointed one works well. There is a reason most dealers show horses in them, they can stop most things.

 

[Reacher]

Hi Only_me
Thanks, I will look at dr Bristol and mcguiness - all these bit suggestions are really helpful as RI prefers not to advise on bits and I don’t have much experience to go on.

As you are working on the ground work side of things, in the mean time you could look at trying a dr bristol or a Mcguinnes bit? Both are eggbut rings so no poll pressure but the mouthpieces are strong.

 

[Reacher]

Oh dear, poor mr horse , in most situations he is a poppet but yes the last bit was pretty scary and I was shaking at the end.
Thanks for your recommendation re vet workup, I’m just a bit surprised if it suggests pain, since he is completely chilled in other situations eg I have ridden him in an arena bitless in Micklem popping over small jumps with no dramas - presumably as he found it unexciting. However I will definitely discuss with vet starting with sending him the video.
Thanks also for the noseband suggestion, I’m not familiar with a controller noseband so will add it to the list for researching.

Well he’s an unruly brat isn’t he until the last bit I was laughing but that bit looked dangerous and unpleasant .
I would definatly have a vet do a basic workup I would want to see his reactions to some hock flexions before I did anything .
I probably would try a controller noseband for jumping in public and keep schooling .

 

[Reacher]

Hi Gloi
Thanks that is encouraging re kineton (and at least I’m not the only one with a tank!)

I'm another for whom a kineton noseband was the answer to my thug of a tank.