Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Just want to say thanks every one (and hope I didnt miss anyone) for all the advice which is much appreciated and Ill be taking it all on board 
Very strong horse help!
- Thread starter Reacher
- Start date
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi Clodagh
Im not familiar with a kineton so its very interesting that many people find it helpful. Ill make a note of the other suggestions thank you too - this is all really helpful, thank you again
Im not familiar with a kineton so its very interesting that many people find it helpful. Ill make a note of the other suggestions thank you too - this is all really helpful, thank you again
Boysy
Well-Known Member
What a rude boy he was there, doesn't matter how upciting things are, he should still listen to the person on top. I do feel your pain, I have one that is seriously bone idle lazy as a tortoise until he thinks it's time to p*ss orf (happens very very rarely now thank god) and for this reason I've only hacked him in a Tom Thumb for yrs now and learnt a one rein stop yrs before that. He respects the bit very well and comes back to me sharply if he suddenly thinks it's time to go faster and I haven't asked for it. This pony wears a Harmony bit the rest of the time aside from hacking as I just don't trust the little ****** and it makes me feel mucho safer
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Of course you can re educate them in their mid teens
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
Me neither - though I'm pretty strong, and belligerent about rude horses (I really don't like being pulled!). Timing is definitely important, and the clarity of what you're doing - it's a sharp, you *WILL* stop now, not a gradual escalating discussion.
Not that I don't just pass them back to their owners and say thanks but no thanks these days
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Me neither - though I'm pretty strong, and belligerent about rude horses (I really don't like being pulled!). Timing is definitely important, and the clarity of what you're doing - it's a sharp, you *WILL* stop now, not a gradual escalating discussion.
Not that I don't just pass them back to their owners and say thanks but no thanks these days
Haha, yup. There's a good reason I only buy unbacked youngsters these days - much easier
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
I tried one last year which was a strong, rude ******. I pulled it up, handed it over to a man who rode it and went "yea, this is a lot of horse for a girl" (ha!), and I said not a chance in hell was I having it. It bloody hurt my back, I went and got blind drunk, and sobbed a bit about how old and rubbish I am now. Then I went and bought Skye who has the best brakes of any horse I've ever known
Sorry, that's utterly unhelpful for the OP!
Mule
Well-Known Member
What a rude boy he was there, doesn't matter how upciting things are, he should still listen to the person on top. I do feel your pain, I have one that is seriously bone idle lazy as a tortoise until he thinks it's time to p*ss orf (happens very very rarely now thank god) and for this reason I've only hacked him in a Tom Thumb for yrs now and learnt a one rein stop yrs before that. He respects the bit very well and comes back to me sharply if he suddenly thinks it's time to go faster and I haven't asked for it. This pony wears a Harmony bit the rest of the time aside from hacking as I just don't trust the little ****** and it makes me feel mucho safer
You need to feel safe don't you. Reschooling them to listen to you regardless of excitement is obviously the aim but you have to feel safe to go out and do it.
dark rider
Active Member
Tricky one. With mine I tried a variety of bits before settling for Go With The Flow. He always jumped at a faster pace than I was happy with but always went clear. I did a lot of schooling so I felt that I could adjust if I needed to. Lovely horse I am sure you will have fun.
Michen
Well-Known Member
This made me smile as I did this once to Basil (out hunting). His arse hit the floor he simply rightened himself and carried on. The field master said he had never seen a horse run through a Liverpool before! It was then I decided he would never hunt again
OP I had a beloved Connie who could tank like that, never in the circumstances in the video but out hunting and also sometimes cross country. I learned that whatever bit I put in would make no difference, hunting obviously I never fixed but xc I actually put him back in a snaffle and he did calm down after he had evened a fair bit and the jumps got bigger.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
One of mine was a rude tank when I got him, he'd gone up for sale very cheap as he was too strong. I spent ages doing the one rein pull to bring him to a halt if he started to tank. The worst thing you can is to give a constant pull or a yank that you don't win. At the start mine was awful, id have to go into a field and nearly run him into a hedge or wall if he tried it. Then we started practicing downwards transitions in the field, and keeping it controlled, if he tanked at all he was pulled up very sharply, i'd literally have to stick my legs forward, brace for impact and drag him round with one rein in a circle. He's fine now and events away, but we def did take a good bit of field schooling to put manners on him, starting with just getting a basic stop response and working through til we got the half halt and gears in the canter and gallop.
he loved jumping but in the arena the trainer said never to let him pick the speed to a jump. If he sped up going into it he was to be circled, he was never allowed pick his speed and be rewarded with a jump. We did months and months of canter pole exercises so i got the control on paces to bring him backwards and forwards.
he loved jumping but in the arena the trainer said never to let him pick the speed to a jump. If he sped up going into it he was to be circled, he was never allowed pick his speed and be rewarded with a jump. We did months and months of canter pole exercises so i got the control on paces to bring him backwards and forwards.
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi Boysy
Glad Im not the only with a rude horse- I was starting to feel like the parent of badly brought up rude kids (which I suppose in a way I am!!)
Glad Im not the only with a rude horse- I was starting to feel like the parent of badly brought up rude kids (which I suppose in a way I am!!)
What a rude boy he was there, doesn't matter how upciting things are, he should still listen to the person on top. I do feel your pain, I have one that is seriously bone idle lazy as a tortoise until he thinks it's time to p*ss orf (happens very very rarely now thank god) and for this reason I've only hacked him in a Tom Thumb for yrs now and learnt a one rein stop yrs before that. He respects the bit very well and comes back to me sharply if he suddenly thinks it's time to go faster and I haven't asked for it. This pony wears a Harmony bit the rest of the time aside from hacking as I just don't trust the little ****** and it makes me feel mucho safer
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Good, positive thinking, thats what we need!
Of course you can re educate them in their mid teens
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
So I really cant persuade you the... :lol:
Me neither - though I'm pretty strong, and belligerent about rude horses (I really don't like being pulled!). Timing is definitely important, and the clarity of what you're doing - it's a sharp, you *WILL* stop now, not a gradual escalating discussion.
Not that I don't just pass them back to their owners and say thanks but no thanks these days
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi Dark rider
I seem to be very ignorant about bits - Ive never heard of Go with the flow!
Yeah he normally jumps clear at the height we are jumping (75 - 80 cm) and when we have one down its usually because hes set off and arrived at the jump a bit fast and in an awkward stride and tries to chip one in. My aim when I bought him was to do be80 and be 90 if possible - he can definitely do 80 and I think if we could just sort out the schooling and control he could do 90 too.
Thanks very much
I seem to be very ignorant about bits - Ive never heard of Go with the flow!
Yeah he normally jumps clear at the height we are jumping (75 - 80 cm) and when we have one down its usually because hes set off and arrived at the jump a bit fast and in an awkward stride and tries to chip one in. My aim when I bought him was to do be80 and be 90 if possible - he can definitely do 80 and I think if we could just sort out the schooling and control he could do 90 too.
Thanks very much
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi Michen
RI seems to think he would be calmer hunting as he would be in a group but frankly Im not convinced and not intending to give it a try!
I have half wondered if I should try him over bigger jumps that he had to respect.
Its a tricky one, I want him better behaved before I try another XC but not going out and doing XC regularly means he is bursting with excitement when we do go. Tho Ive had a schooling lesson over XC jumps and he was very well behaved
RI seems to think he would be calmer hunting as he would be in a group but frankly Im not convinced and not intending to give it a try!
I have half wondered if I should try him over bigger jumps that he had to respect.
Its a tricky one, I want him better behaved before I try another XC but not going out and doing XC regularly means he is bursting with excitement when we do go. Tho Ive had a schooling lesson over XC jumps and he was very well behaved
This made me smile as I did this once to Basil (out hunting). His arse hit the floor he simply rightened himself and carried on. The field master said he had never seen a horse run through a Liverpool before! It was then I decided he would never hunt again
OP I had a beloved Connie who could tank like that, never in the circumstances in the video but out hunting and also sometimes cross country. I learned that whatever bit I put in would make no difference, hunting obviously I never fixed but xc I actually put him back in a snaffle and he did calm down after he had evened a fair bit and the jumps got bigger.
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi Paddi
Yeah your horse sounds very like mine and the part about not letting him pick up speed going into a jump is very pertinent. Thank you that is all very good advice
Yeah your horse sounds very like mine and the part about not letting him pick up speed going into a jump is very pertinent. Thank you that is all very good advice
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
Nope
But it's horses for courses - no horse is perfect, they've all got their flaws and their issues to work through. Don't feel alone in having a "rude" horse - plenty of horses out there are rude either in terms of brakes, or in any of the other paradigms of behaviour, and at least you're trying to sort it out. And, of course, I'm sure your chap has a lot to commend him in other areas (even though he was a knob in the video
).
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Thats a pity
Am determined to sort it out (otherwise will have to take up knitting instead..)
Am determined to sort it out (otherwise will have to take up knitting instead..)
Nope
But it's horses for courses - no horse is perfect, they've all got their flaws and their issues to work through. Don't feel alone in having a "rude" horse - plenty of horses out there are rude either in terms of brakes, or in any of the other paradigms of behaviour, and at least you're trying to sort it out. And, of course, I'm sure your chap has a lot to commend him in other areas (even though he was a knob in the video
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
You mention higher up that you are going to try a Nelson gag; personally, I would ditch that and go straight to a Cheltenham gag with two reins. (I don't think the Nelson will be effective enough and it would be nicer for you I think to use a stronger bit in a gentler fashion.) As for the mouthpiece I would go for a Waterford or Cherry Roller.
Finally, if a horse is being rude to me I have no qualms about being equally rude back. Sometimes a short sharp shock makes more of an impact than a constant battle. Once the boundaries have been re-established then you could trade down to a Nelson or whatever.
Finally, if a horse is being rude to me I have no qualms about being equally rude back. Sometimes a short sharp shock makes more of an impact than a constant battle. Once the boundaries have been re-established then you could trade down to a Nelson or whatever.
spacefaer
Well-Known Member
From long years of experience of hunting and eventing, I would make some observations, which are not directed at you personally OP, but just things to take on board.....
Strong horses need something to pull against - I use strong bits and a light hand. I never take a pull unless I mean it, and I never hold on. However, in order to ride like that, you need short stirrups and a strong core, so that you are in balance and never have to touch the horse's mouth unless you mean it. I also bridge my reins A LOT - much harder to use them as a brace for the rider like that, and much more effective against a strong horse.
Tired horses are not strong - they can't be bothered, ones that are feeling well and fresh are horribly strong and have loads of energy to use against their rider. If I have a horse that I know is strong and I'm going to jump it or take it cross country. I make sure I've worked it really hard beforehand! He'll go hunting several times in a week, or autumn hunting every day, for instance, and then he will be pleasant and want to work with me.
Bold, brave horses need something to think about when they are jumping - either bigger fences, or technical ones, or twisty lines.... anything to engage their brains, not just little jumps on easy turns.
I always try to treat the horse like driving an automatic car - he should do what I ask, and continue to do that, until I ask him to do something else.... that way, I'm not nagging with my legs or my hands, and he learns to listen and react when I do apply the aid. This obviously come with training. If the horse is constantly asked to do the same thing all the time, he will either shut down and stop listening, so that the rider increases the strength or frequency of the aid, or the horse will remove himself from the situation..... which is what I suspect is happening at the end of your video. In the video, you are constantly asking for him to slow down, while applying your leg and seat in front of the fence. At the end of the course, he is telling you he has had enough of it. He is very rude but he is right....
Strong horses need something to pull against - I use strong bits and a light hand. I never take a pull unless I mean it, and I never hold on. However, in order to ride like that, you need short stirrups and a strong core, so that you are in balance and never have to touch the horse's mouth unless you mean it. I also bridge my reins A LOT - much harder to use them as a brace for the rider like that, and much more effective against a strong horse.
Tired horses are not strong - they can't be bothered, ones that are feeling well and fresh are horribly strong and have loads of energy to use against their rider. If I have a horse that I know is strong and I'm going to jump it or take it cross country. I make sure I've worked it really hard beforehand! He'll go hunting several times in a week, or autumn hunting every day, for instance, and then he will be pleasant and want to work with me.
Bold, brave horses need something to think about when they are jumping - either bigger fences, or technical ones, or twisty lines.... anything to engage their brains, not just little jumps on easy turns.
I always try to treat the horse like driving an automatic car - he should do what I ask, and continue to do that, until I ask him to do something else.... that way, I'm not nagging with my legs or my hands, and he learns to listen and react when I do apply the aid. This obviously come with training. If the horse is constantly asked to do the same thing all the time, he will either shut down and stop listening, so that the rider increases the strength or frequency of the aid, or the horse will remove himself from the situation..... which is what I suspect is happening at the end of your video. In the video, you are constantly asking for him to slow down, while applying your leg and seat in front of the fence. At the end of the course, he is telling you he has had enough of it. He is very rude but he is right....
Mule
Well-Known Member
Mines the same with jumping, especially xc. He gets very cross when I circle him instead of letting him run on to a jump but it has to be done to keep him listening.
He's the type that if there's jumps set up in an arena, he'll zoom over and try to jump them when his rider isn't concentrating
I think he'd suit a person who showjumps to a decent standard as it would be a bit more of a challenge to him.
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I have a different perspective, I think you ride nicely, but I would say that even when he did slow down you kept 'hold' so he was not really rewarded for slowing. Eventually he just ran through the bridle.
I would do a lot of schooling before your next outing, but it would be asking him to slow, but then going back to a light contact so he knows he has done as requested. That is his release of pressure, his reward, the way he knows he has done the request. If he speeds up again then again check, but check well enough that you can resume a light contact.
I have no issue with a sharp stop aid if he ignores you, but he won't jump nicely until he can canter within himself without you needing to 'hold' him. In some ways it may be that you are unintentionally holding as a defence.
Some horses will react against being 'held' by pulling forwards, just to find the release and because they are frustrated.
While ever you are still holding even when he has slowed down I would not move to a stronger bit as this will frustrate him even more, and he could just learn to ignore the next bit upwards.
I would do a lot of schooling before your next outing, but it would be asking him to slow, but then going back to a light contact so he knows he has done as requested. That is his release of pressure, his reward, the way he knows he has done the request. If he speeds up again then again check, but check well enough that you can resume a light contact.
I have no issue with a sharp stop aid if he ignores you, but he won't jump nicely until he can canter within himself without you needing to 'hold' him. In some ways it may be that you are unintentionally holding as a defence.
Some horses will react against being 'held' by pulling forwards, just to find the release and because they are frustrated.
While ever you are still holding even when he has slowed down I would not move to a stronger bit as this will frustrate him even more, and he could just learn to ignore the next bit upwards.
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi gunnerdog
Ah thanks, Ive already got the Nelson on hire though not used it yet so may as well give it a go (once I have worked out how those straps are attached!) but thats good to know that the Cheltenham is likely to be more effective.
Re the mouthpiece - in the video he was wearing a Waterford Baucher - he doesnt seem to take any notice of it other than opening his mouth.
You are so right about needing to give a short sharp shock rather than a protracted battle. I think I need to be sharper in my reaction time to nip the tank in the bud before it happens
Thanks - all good advice
Ah thanks, Ive already got the Nelson on hire though not used it yet so may as well give it a go (once I have worked out how those straps are attached!) but thats good to know that the Cheltenham is likely to be more effective.
Re the mouthpiece - in the video he was wearing a Waterford Baucher - he doesnt seem to take any notice of it other than opening his mouth.
You are so right about needing to give a short sharp shock rather than a protracted battle. I think I need to be sharper in my reaction time to nip the tank in the bud before it happens
Thanks - all good advice
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi spacefaer
Wow, theres a lot of useful stuff there to reflect on, thank you very much!
Re not holding on, I entirely agree I have an ingrained habit of holding on - RI has pointed this out and Im trying to fix the habit -I just find it hard the stronger he gets - its a viscous circle.
Regarding core and stirrups - yes RI says I need to strengthen my core so Id better do something about it and get my couch potatoe arse to the gym (or more likely exercise at home)
Stirrups wise, RI has shortened my stirrups a lot from my previous length (up 5 holes) but maybe they could go higher.
Re bridging the reins - will have to ask RI for help with this - will he not just lean on me again?
Re tired horse -that fits in with what Ive been thinking he is just feeling very fit and well - I think you are right and he needs some much harder work.
Re giving him something to think about jumping -definitely- we have been training in a hired SJ paddock whos size and slope limits what we can do. I am going to hire different arena where we will have much more scope to challenge him.
The part in your final para that I am both asking him to slow down and driving him on at the same time is very interesting- RI has mentioned sometimes I am driving with my seat - problem is Ive never realised Im doing it - that is something I will try and pay very careful attention to.
Thankyou again, that is so much food for thought
Wow, theres a lot of useful stuff there to reflect on, thank you very much!
Re not holding on, I entirely agree I have an ingrained habit of holding on - RI has pointed this out and Im trying to fix the habit -I just find it hard the stronger he gets - its a viscous circle.
Regarding core and stirrups - yes RI says I need to strengthen my core so Id better do something about it and get my couch potatoe arse to the gym (or more likely exercise at home)
Stirrups wise, RI has shortened my stirrups a lot from my previous length (up 5 holes) but maybe they could go higher.
Re bridging the reins - will have to ask RI for help with this - will he not just lean on me again?
Re tired horse -that fits in with what Ive been thinking he is just feeling very fit and well - I think you are right and he needs some much harder work.
Re giving him something to think about jumping -definitely- we have been training in a hired SJ paddock whos size and slope limits what we can do. I am going to hire different arena where we will have much more scope to challenge him.
The part in your final para that I am both asking him to slow down and driving him on at the same time is very interesting- RI has mentioned sometimes I am driving with my seat - problem is Ive never realised Im doing it - that is something I will try and pay very careful attention to.
Thankyou again, that is so much food for thought
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I fully agree that that correct training will be a huge help, but the right bridle can also be invaluable. With this guy (15.1hh Section D) I HAD to jump him in his pelham or we would never be seen again. Unbeknownst to me when I'd bought him as a 10yo, he was well known for regularly bogging off with the working pupils. By the time this pic was taken he was 13, was well schooled, getting well placed regularly at affiliated Elementary and working medium, ridden in a french link and plain cavesson bridle.
The next year I took him to a RC ODE. He led after the dressage. I forgot to change his bridle from the snaffle to the pelham for the SJ. I realised before the start but thought that my now saintly cob would be fine, so didn't rush back to the trailer to change it. OMG! We hurtled round at 100 mph :eek3:. Normal mannerly service was resumed after putting the pelham back on for the XC, and we went on to win.
The next year I took him to a RC ODE. He led after the dressage. I forgot to change his bridle from the snaffle to the pelham for the SJ. I realised before the start but thought that my now saintly cob would be fine, so didn't rush back to the trailer to change it. OMG! We hurtled round at 100 mph :eek3:. Normal mannerly service was resumed after putting the pelham back on for the XC, and we went on to win.
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Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Yes the jumps in that class were a bit boring for him, had intended to also do the next class up 29 but due to the bogging off I wimped out.
My aim when I bought him was to do some be90 - I am still hoping that I can do some bigger heights with him than the 80 cm or so we have done so far - we have had to build up to this anyway as previously he had very atrophied back muscles and was quite weak.
I expect he would enjoy being ridden by a better rider, am just hoping with my instructors help I can up my game to his standard!
Actually that gives me another idea, RIs daughter has SJ to a decent standard do maybe I can persuade her to ride him a bit for me if she can put up with his rude manners!
My aim when I bought him was to do some be90 - I am still hoping that I can do some bigger heights with him than the 80 cm or so we have done so far - we have had to build up to this anyway as previously he had very atrophied back muscles and was quite weak.
I expect he would enjoy being ridden by a better rider, am just hoping with my instructors help I can up my game to his standard!
Actually that gives me another idea, RIs daughter has SJ to a decent standard do maybe I can persuade her to ride him a bit for me if she can put up with his rude manners!
Mines the same with jumping, especially xc. He gets very cross when I circle him instead of letting him run on to a jump but it has to be done to keep him listening.
He's the type that if there's jumps set up in an arena, he'll zoom over and try to jump them when his rider isn't concentrating
I think he'd suit a person who showjumps to a decent standard as it would be a bit more of a challenge to him.
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
So many thanks again everyone, all your advice has been really helpful.
A quick update, had SJ lesson yesterday in hired grass SJ paddock and he was a paragon of manners!! No tanking. I still have the hired NS elevator and used it this time with 2 reins. I dont know if he was feeling unwell or had a bad nights sleep or what :lol: - on Thursday night I had given him a bit of a blast which perhaps had calmed him down. It was much more enjoyable anyway
A quick update, had SJ lesson yesterday in hired grass SJ paddock and he was a paragon of manners!! No tanking. I still have the hired NS elevator and used it this time with 2 reins. I dont know if he was feeling unwell or had a bad nights sleep or what :lol: - on Thursday night I had given him a bit of a blast which perhaps had calmed him down. It was much more enjoyable anyway
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Oh fab. Hope he can keep going in that vain and you can get out and about again before too long
Just keep plugging away and being very consistent in what you ask of him. Afterall, he's probably only behaving as he has been trained to - there are a fair amount of kids that love their ponies to bomb around a sj course like a loon, and it may just be that his previous child friend was like that. It's a bit like retraining an ex racer really
Just keep plugging away and being very consistent in what you ask of him. Afterall, he's probably only behaving as he has been trained to - there are a fair amount of kids that love their ponies to bomb around a sj course like a loon, and it may just be that his previous child friend was like that. It's a bit like retraining an ex racer really
Reacher
Dishonourable Member
Hi TP
Thats a great photo and he even looks like my horse. Haha thats very funny story but it gives me a glimmer of hope that I should be able to reschool my teenage with a bit of help of some appropriate kit
Thats a great photo and he even looks like my horse. Haha thats very funny story but it gives me a glimmer of hope that I should be able to reschool my teenage with a bit of help of some appropriate kit
I fully agree that that correct training will be a huge help, but the right bridle can also be invaluable. With this guy (15.1hh Section D) I HAD to jump him in his pelham or we would never be seen again. Unbeknownst to me when I'd bought him as a 10yo, he was well known for regularly bogging off with the working pupils. By the time this pic was taken he was 13, was well schooled, getting well placed regularly at affiliated Elementary and working medium, ridden in a french link and plain cavesson bridle.
The next year I took him to a RC ODE. He led after the dressage. I forgot to change his bridle from the snaffle to the pelham for the SJ. I realised before the start but thought that my now saintly cob would be fine, so didn't rush back to the trailer to change it. OMG! We hurtled round at 100 mph :eek3:. Normal mannerly service was resumed after putting the pelham back on for the XC, and we went on to win.