Very unsettled in contact but no teeth issues-HELP!

[muffinthemule]

At my wits end having a lovely, capable horse who unfortunately spends a lot of his time (around 70%) he has a bit in chewing, chomping, opening mouth and fiddling with the bit. Obviously this is killing our dressage marks as looks v unsightly and also stops him being truly round as blocks him in the neck. He is working fairly well from behind but it's not connecting right through to allow him to "flow".

Had vet to do teeth last week who said they were in fab condition having only been done in November. Also tried several bits and pretty much same reaction in each. Has had physio and saddler check and vet check...nothing found.

I'm not keen to strap his mouth shut with a flash/drop as that doesn't solve the problem. I rode him in a bitless micklem the other day and he went v sweetly-mouth hardly moved and actually started to work quite round in it. As much as this is good, it's not a solution for BE/BD.

Brief history- 16.1hh TBxID bought last year at 6yo for his beautiful temperament. Had mainly show jumped (never Dr or Xc) but we've now done a bit of everything and been placed in some BEs. I adore this horse and won't sell him but I enjoy my dressage and he was progressing v well until we hit this block. Problems developed when he got fitter and stronger at start of this year getting ready for eventing season. Still green but Currently working ele towards med.
Also worth saying-Pretty sure its not my hands as it's almost worse on a long/loose rein than when contact taken up.

Any help/suggestions would be very much appreciated as just not sure how to deal with this. If he in in pain/discomfort I really want to solve it for him.
Thanks!

 

[paddi22]

i never trust vets with teeth, had too many horses over the year that vets said were perfect (just needs a rasp seems to be their stock phrase) and then dentists found issues with at later stages. I would get a fully qualified equine dentist to give a proper check to be sure.

 

[Mince Pie]

I'd also still be trying different bits/comfort bridles/micklem bridles. There are hundreds of bits on the market, both different actions and different mouth pieces.

 

[JennBags]

I'd also still be trying different bits/comfort bridles/micklem bridles. There are hundreds of bits on the market, both different actions and different mouth pieces.

This ^^^ My boy is like this, and I think *fingers crossed* that I've settled him at last. I have a micklem competition bridle teamed with a straight bar happy mouth. He likes the stability of the bit.

 

[be positive]

If he has issues with a basic contact and blocks his neck against you I don't see that pushing him on towards medium work is going to help, he doesn't sound to me as if his basics are established enough to make such rapid progress, assuming you are competing no higher than BE Novice then I would want to get the basics in place and established before starting to do the more testing movements that at the moment are not required and without them being in place it will limit your progress anyway, at least it will limit your marks and however good the jumping is at some point the contact issue may impact on that as well.

I would really get back to the nitty gritty, keep him fit and competing but schooling wise get the basics back into the front of your mind and don't push on until he is accepting the contact, you may need to keep changing the bit, bridle until you find what suits him best, it sounds as if he was making good progress until possibly you asked too much and confused matters, starting lateral work and all the more demanding movements involved with Elem/ Med can show up any weakness in the training to that point that you may have got away with or not even been aware of.
Is he truly straight, many horses appear to be until someone really good on the ground gets involved, being very slightly crooked often causes connection problems that seem to be coming from the mouth but are actually coming from behind, get a really experienced dressage trainer to give you a lesson and see what they think may help.

 

[claracanter]

My boy chews, chomps and opens his mouth and takes an age to get going in a nice contact. I have started riding him bites and he is totally transformed.

I gave this reply to a similar thread( A question about contact...) a few days ago.

Have a look at the new Turtle Tactio by Neue Schule, ( dressage legal) which only came out this year and is designed for horses with sensitive or large tongues.I say this because I was in contact with them today funnily enough about my fussy mouthed boy who always wants to have his mouth opened to the point I have started riding him bitless (He's like a different horse to school now in terms of contact, softness and a closed mouth but thats another story!) Anyway I asked them if they had anything dressage legal that I could put him for competitions stating that he was happiest bitless. Might be worth a look http://nsbits.com/product/turtle-tactio/

 

[wkiwi]

If he has issues with a basic contact and blocks his neck against you I don't see that pushing him on towards medium work is going to help, he doesn't sound to me as if his basics are established enough to make such rapid progress, assuming you are competing no higher than BE Novice then I would want to get the basics in place and established before starting to do the more testing movements that at the moment are not required and without them being in place it will limit your progress anyway, at least it will limit your marks and however good the jumping is at some point the contact issue may impact on that as well.

I would really get back to the nitty gritty, keep him fit and competing but schooling wise get the basics back into the front of your mind and don't push on until he is accepting the contact, you may need to keep changing the bit, bridle until you find what suits him best, it sounds as if he was making good progress until possibly you asked too much and confused matters, starting lateral work and all the more demanding movements involved with Elem/ Med can show up any weakness in the training to that point that you may have got away with or not even been aware of.
Is he truly straight, many horses appear to be until someone really good on the ground gets involved, being very slightly crooked often causes connection problems that seem to be coming from the mouth but are actually coming from behind, get a really experienced dressage trainer to give you a lesson and see what they think may help.

Agree with this. Before asking for more complicated stuff, ensure the horse will take the contact down into a stretch when asked (must maintain contact on outside rein while stretching i.e. long rein not loose) and this will solve most of your contact problems. It is also brilliant for getting the horse to relax and can help with sorting out all sorts of other issues. If you want to go higher level dressage then the horse will at some point need to accept the double bridle, so you need to sort out horse accepting your rein contact now before you get to flying changes (which seems to be the point that a lot of horses 'stick', especially sequence ones).

 

[Tegan]

Have you tried a straight bar bit? My mums cob has similar issues and I have recently tried her in a straight bar happy mouth snaffle. On paper it is totally unsuitable as no movement and too fat for her small mouth but in practice she is going really well in it. I use it with a Micklem bridle which also helps.

 

[Goldenstar]

So many things could be causing this however as a start get the horse checked for neck pain and hyoid pain and TMJ pain .

 

[gunnergundog]

So many things could be causing this however as a start get the horse checked for neck pain and hyoid pain and TMJ pain .

In very crude terms the hyoid connects the tongue to the shoulder and can be the source of soooooooooooo many issues in the mouth/contact. Make sure you have a very good chartered physio who understands the correlation.

Even getting the teeth checked (utilising a gag) can cause issues in the wrong hands.

 

[soulfull]

Also double check saddlebisnt pinching on withers

 

[galaxy]

I would also recommend you have a fully qualified EDT check his mouth for any balance issues. Vets do miss things.

I've been helping a client with this issue recently and actually found that her issue (not saying it's yours) is that the horse is evading and training the rider not to take a steady constant contact and by fussing, was making the rider back off and it just became a big mess! I had a go and am now making the rider really make sure they are giving a really still constant contact (not heavy, but constant and still). The mare initially had a real tantrum and looked like she was chewing bubble gum but settled and every session is doing it less and less.

 

[smja]

I'd also look at where the bit is sitting in his mouth - you say it's worse on a long rein and better when taken up, which is what my horse used to be like. Bit raised up a couple of holes and he's much happier. To look at it's too high in his mouth, but that's what he prefers.

 

[muffinthemule]

Thanks so much to everyone who has replied - I really appreciate it and it's given me some great food for thought.

It's definitely a fair comment that I've pushed him on of late so I'll definitely take a step back and consolidate. I'm also going to get my instructor (list 1 DR judge) to sit on him in case he is training me to back off with the chomping!

Aside from that, I'll persist with rummaging in my bit box...at the moment it's trial and error on that front, but a myler with port mouth seemed to go down quite well last night (not DR legal I know, but any acceptance is a start!) and the Myler is definitely better.

Is it a physio I need to check out the potential of hyoid/TMJ issues?

Many thanks again all!

 

[gunnergundog]

Is it a physio I need to check out the potential of hyoid/TMJ issues?

Yes, but not just any old physio - check that they are ideally chartered or veterinary physio if ACPAT, but ask around as there are good and not so good even with those qualifications.

 

[marmalade88]

I appreciate everyone has immediately thought there is problem with the horse but coming from a different angle: does he only do this with you? how still are your hands? Some horses are less forgiving than others if you don't have arms/hands independent from your body? How is he when ridden by others?

 

[applecart14]

I appreciate everyone has immediately thought there is problem with the horse but coming from a different angle: does he only do this with you? how still are your hands? Some horses are less forgiving than others if you don't have arms/hands independent from your body? How is he when ridden by others?

I second this. I never have lessons but had a group lesson the other day for the first time in about 8 years and the instructor noticed by horse nodding as he bowled along in trot. He didn't do it all the time, and its not consistently on the one rein or the other - he can go minutes at a time without doing it, or he will do it then stop and do it again. He has done it on a bute trial before now so I know its not pain related. He does have a little bit of calcification in a ligament which is why I thought it was a mechanical issue.

She told me the reason he was unsettled in the contact and looked as if he was nodding was because he was backing off the contact and I had to push him forwards. When I did push him on he did not nod anymore. I assumed in was a mechanical type of lameness but I know my hands move so I assume I don't have a steady contact with his mouth and this is why he backs off.

I will be having her again - she told me something that no one had ever told me before and it was like a revelation!