Very worried about my old girl.

I agree with some of the other posters. You have tried so hard with Tess but I worry that you are going to get seriously hurt. She doesn't sound a happy dog and I think its unlikely anything is going to change now. We took on a beautiful young GSD about 30 years ago, she could have had a good show career but temperamentally she was unpredictable . She was always ok with us but couldn't be trusted with other family members and when she bit my dad , who she knew really well, she was pts.
 
EP, you are a far better woman than I.
Im v sorry to say that I think I'd have let her be pts by now, with all the issues she has. But that's my thoughts, never having met her or you, just from reading your posts.
I'm sending you all my love and hope that whatever you do, that you stay safe xx
 
You all make very valid points and I have come close to euthanasia many times but just can't go through with it. She hasn't actually bitten me properly as yet, a few grabs that I have been able to deflect but no more and I am seeing very slight improvement. Knowing how far Pat had got with her gives me hope. She was bred to be a pet dog, not a farm collie at all, no work ethic, and comes from very sweet parents. This all kicked in when she had her first season, up to then she was a real sweetie according to her first owner, but from 6 months when she had her season all the neurotic behaviour started and they just couldn't get to the bottom of it. Even the behaviourist they consulted admitted defeat. I suspect it coincided with a fear period. She went back to the breeder who passed her to another behaviourist who had her in her own home but kept separated from her own dogs. She got her used to other dogs, going in her van to places and generally behaving but she did admit to me when I took her on that she wound up in the evenings. She used to walk her alongside the huge dike behind her house where Tess could run loose. The other side of the dike was a main road and Tess got in the habit of racing the traffic. Such a stupid thing to let her do and has contributed a lot to her problems.

So up to the point at which Pat took her on she had only ever lived in a village and the house we viewed her in was set back from the road in a quiet cul-de-sac. None of us ever thought to question whether Pat's house was going to be a suitable place for a dog like her to move to. That really is where the biggest mistake was made. Pat was known to be very experienced with taking on rescue dogs, had competed at Crufts in both agility and flyball with previous dogs so was accepted on that basis. Sadly her house proved highly unsuitable being a small terraced house on a very busy road, a bus route with schools at the top of the road. This is where her fear of traffic really took hold, buses and vans past the house constantly. It is much quieter here so indoors at least she is much better. I am not actually worired about her biting me now and she wouldn't attack anyone else as she adores people. Stop to speak to anyone and she is on her back asking for tummy rubs. I am hoping that as the fluoxetine kicks in (3-4 weeks) that she will relax and become more amenable to going out. Once she gets to know other dogs she is best friends with them. She was with Jesse, in fact she respected her when she met her up at our field. Pat had been bringing her up to run twice a week for the two years she had her so she knew mine well and my sister's dog too and never had a problem. It was only when she came to live here that she started to get aggressive with Jesse and that all kicked off when Jesse was teasing her with a ball and Tess lost her temper and went for her. She realised then that Jesse was weak and also a bit confusing as she had slight dementia so it just went on from there and it was safer to separate them.

Anyone who has only ever seen the soft side of her would struggle to believe what she can be like, I know Pat and I had no idea when we went to view her and I don't actually think the behaviourist or the breeder or indeed the person who first suggested her to Pat had any idea what she could be like if sufficiently stressed and over threshold. They were all horrified when I told them euthanasia was being suggested by the rescue she was in. Very, very difficult situation. I will continue to try for now but as I keep telling her, she is on probation.
 
As I said on another thread, we can think about all the whys and hows, but genetically, this is probably just who she is, and her lack of nerve means she over-reacts to things that don't bother other dogs, combined with a lot of classic collie traits including being triggered by movement and upset by loud noises.

The last notes of caution I will sound are that...if a dog attempts to grab or bite, it *can* develop into a bite if they perceive they have done it already x amount of times with no consequence and they think it will help them get what they want, or stop what is happening that they don't like.

Also the being on her back asking for rubs...'pushy submission' does not mean that the dog likes or wants attention from lots of people, hard to describe but I have experience of it.
It's like 'please don't hurt me I'm nice really' squirmy affection.

You can feel free to ignore me but equally also please ignore the horror of anyone who disagrees with the idea of PTS. You're the one who has to live with and deal with anything that happens on your own and organise your life around her, and it may come with a sense of relief when you're no longer living like that. Your own safety and that of your other dog is paramount.
You have your mobility and independence and that is to be protected, so like I say, I really hope the meds are successful.
 
Errin Paddywack said:
You all make very valid points and I have come close to euthanasia many times but just can't go through with it. She hasn't actually bitten me properly as yet, a few grabs that I have been able to deflect but no more and I am seeing very slight improvement. Knowing how far Pat had got with her gives me hope. She was bred to be a pet dog, not a farm collie at all, no work ethic, and comes from very sweet parents. This all kicked in when she had her first season, up to then she was a real sweetie according to her first owner, but from 6 months when she had her season all the neurotic behaviour started and they just couldn't get to the bottom of it. Even the behaviourist they consulted admitted defeat. I suspect it coincided with a fear period. She went back to the breeder who passed her to another behaviourist who had her in her own home but kept separated from her own dogs. She got her used to other dogs, going in her van to places and generally behaving but she did admit to me when I took her on that she wound up in the evenings. She used to walk her alongside the huge dike behind her house where Tess could run loose. The other side of the dike was a main road and Tess got in the habit of racing the traffic. Such a stupid thing to let her do and has contributed a lot to her problems.

So up to the point at which Pat took her on she had only ever lived in a village and the house we viewed her in was set back from the road in a quiet cul-de-sac. None of us ever thought to question whether Pat's house was going to be a suitable place for a dog like her to move to. That really is where the biggest mistake was made. Pat was known to be very experienced with taking on rescue dogs, had competed at Crufts in both agility and flyball with previous dogs so was accepted on that basis. Sadly her house proved highly unsuitable being a small terraced house on a very busy road, a bus route with schools at the top of the road. This is where her fear of traffic really took hold, buses and vans past the house constantly. It is much quieter here so indoors at least she is much better. I am not actually worired about her biting me now and she wouldn't attack anyone else as she adores people. Stop to speak to anyone and she is on her back asking for tummy rubs. I am hoping that as the fluoxetine kicks in (3-4 weeks) that she will relax and become more amenable to going out. Once she gets to know other dogs she is best friends with them. She was with Jesse, in fact she respected her when she met her up at our field. Pat had been bringing her up to run twice a week for the two years she had her so she knew mine well and my sister's dog too and never had a problem. It was only when she came to live here that she started to get aggressive with Jesse and that all kicked off when Jesse was teasing her with a ball and Tess lost her temper and went for her. She realised then that Jesse was weak and also a bit confusing as she had slight dementia so it just went on from there and it was safer to separate them.

Anyone who has only ever seen the soft side of her would struggle to believe what she can be like, I know Pat and I had no idea when we went to view her and I don't actually think the behaviourist or the breeder or indeed the person who first suggested her to Pat had any idea what she could be like if sufficiently stressed and over threshold. They were all horrified when I told them euthanasia was being suggested by the rescue she was in. Very, very difficult situation. I will continue to try for now but as I keep telling her, she is on probation.
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Well, do take care, and hopefully fluoxetine will help; sometimes has unwonted results in humans while getting into their systems; but hats off for your perseverance and commitment. Good luck!
 
Being a soft touch and tending to take on dogs that are in the last chance saloon because I enjoy a challenge (not sure if that's the right word! it's certainly not enjoyable at the start...) over the years I've learnt that you can't always save them. I can live with that as long as I can say hand on heart that I've given it my best shot and by reminding myself that while PTS for behavioural reasons is very sad and difficult, it is never a welfare issue and quality of life of all concerned is important.

In saying that, there are some dogs that do best with what we see as a very limited life because the real world is just too anxiety inducing or overwhelming for them so keeping their world very small can help. The evening hyperness would suggest trigger stacking even if there were no obvious triggers earlier in the day . You'll know this better than anyone but training can be more tiring than exercise so maybe 3 or 4 short training sessions a day at home rather than exercise, alongside the pharmaceutical help could keep her calmer?

No matter what decisions you make, there are no wrong ones for a dog like Tess because the only wrong decision would be to pass her on which I'm sure you wouldn't do.
 
Unrequested vet thoughts - she sounds like she could do with far more chemical enhancement than just fluoxetine to deal with life. Have you spoken to a behavioural vet who can prescribe or just a GP vet?

On the wound up in the evening - judicious Melatonin administration can be very useful for this if your vet agrees.
 
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