Vet checks and deposit

[TeapotSarah]

Hi all just wondering people thoughts on this. Lady at my yard put a deposit down on a lovely kids pony.
Vet check came back, points raised were:

Teeth need doing. Malenders needs managing but doesn't appear active (may have worded that wrong). Slight ouzing near man bits! On expression vet found puss and uncovered recently gelded (few months ago). Said its something to keep an eye on as it would be very unlucky for it to turn into some sort of absess on tubes (again my description bad!) Basically there was a small amount of puss when squeezed. So a 12 year old kids pony that's just been gelded which wasn't declared. A few other minor bits.

Vets then did the standard strangles and the cushing test due to concerns about coat. Strangles came back positive for antibodies so either had it/had it or a carrier. Yard he coming to will not accept until clear or proven clear with retest in 2 weeks to see dropping levels. Dealer suggested wash out and he'd be fine.

Cushings came back in grey area bear in mind no symptoms apart from coat which could be genetic. Without further tests it cannot be confirmed or ruled out.

Dealer an extremely reputable dealer one of the best in the uk, says he's passed vetting as far as I'm concerned if you don't go ahead you lose deposit.

Any thoughts would you go ahead knowing all this? Would you spend more money or walk away. I've advised she gets legal advice.

Thank you.

 

[tda]

Doesn't sound great tbh. I'd suggest dealer gets the pony "washed out" and when it's clear you'll proceed.
If that's a reputable dealer I'd be a bit worried

 

[ycbm]

I would not accept a vetting as positive where there was current infection in a recent wound, one which without investigation can't be proved not to be coming from a botched gelding. There could be serious nasty surprises lurking up inside the severed tubes.

I also wouldn't accept a strangles carrier or positive for infection exposure as having passed the vet.

I'm reasonably sure if they raise a small claim online, which is easy, the deposit will be returned.

The pony is definitely a fail as far as I can see. A pass does not include a potential internal abscess or wound breakdown from gelding or the treatment needed to clear the guttural pouches of strangles, which might not work.
.

 

[Roxylola]

Technically, nothing on the vetting says the pony is not fit for purpose.
Not sure personally if I'd still want to buy but I don't think you'd get a deposit back

 

[ycbm]

Technically, nothing on the vetting says the pony is not fit for purpose.
Not sure personally if I'd still want to buy but I don't think you'd get a deposit back

I hope they would, especially if the dealer really is reputable.

I think "fit for purpose" in the context of a vetting includes nothing found which is likely to render the pony unfit for purpose in the immediate future. Pus in a wound for me is a fail, especially
pus from a gelding operation that could potentially indicate a far bigger problem up inside the pony.

I also feel "fit for purpose" has to mean that it can be moved to any reasonable livery yard, and a clean strangles test is a requirement of many livery yards.
.

 

[Roxylola]

@ycbm - I agree in principle with you. I think the dealer could quite easily say they'd keep the pony, do the guttural pouch wash, and presumably allow time for the gelding to settle and pony is good to go.
I'd be concerned about the Cushing's though personally

 

[Keith_Beef]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it normal to wait until the animal is twelve before gelding?

If that recent gelding wasn't declared in the advert, I'd be seriously doubting the seller's honesty about the rest of the description.

 

[ycbm]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it normal to wait until the animal is twelve before gelding?

If that recent gelding wasn't declared in the advert, I'd be seriously doubting the seller's honesty about the rest of the description.

Not in any way normal, Keith, and very especially not in a pony sold as suitable for children. It's pretty unusual for children to be riding stallions, so the buyer needs to question strongly exactly how much experience with children this pony sold to her for her kids has actually had.
.

 

[ihatework]

Gosh grey area.
I’m leaning towards not an outright vet failure but I would also hope dealer would be a bit more helpful to facilitate the sale.
I’d want a retest or guttural wash on the strangles before accepting horse, and I’d expect the castration site to be treated in parallel.

Did they know the pony had been recently castrated and deliberately withheld the info? That might make me a little suspicious on what else they may have neglected to say and irrespective of vetting/deposit would be a minor red flag

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Dealer an extremely reputable dealer one of the best in the uk, says he's passed vetting as far as I'm concerned if you don't go ahead you lose deposit.

Given the very iffy details revealed on vetting I would very much doubt this is an 'extremely reputable dealer'. No reputable dealer would sell on a recently gelded 12 year old as a child's pony unless of course they fully revealed this fact on viewing and the reason why it was gelded at such a late age. That alone would have me questioning just how reliable this dealer is. Especially now they are pulling the 'not my problem' card.

 

[rabatsa]

I would risk forfeiting my deposit rather than take on the future risks, which could be expensive, with this pony.

 

[Rowreach]

That's one of the issues with pre purchase inspections not actually being a pass/fail situation - but I would argue that a pony with a currently infected wound and potential strangles infection/carrier of strangles would not be fit for purpose as a child's pony in the immediate, and that if being sold as a child's pony it should have, at the age of 12, about 8 years of history of doing the job.

The fact of the late gelding not being declared would in all likelihood be grounds for getting the deposit back in any event.

 

[TeapotSarah]

Given the very iffy details revealed on vetting I would very much doubt this is an 'extremely reputable dealer'. No reputable dealer would sell on a recently gelded 12 year old as a child's pony unless of course they fully revealed this fact on viewing and the reason why it was gelded at such a late age. That alone would have me questioning just how reliable this dealer is. Especially now they are pulling the 'not my problem' card.

Thank you thats why we are all so shocked. Don't suppose you find out if they are a genuine seller until you have a problem. But they are a very well known dealer with no a single negative on any of the dodgy dealer sites.

I think they are going down the small claims, vet has written a decent email to support.

 

[TeapotSarah]

Many thanks everyone for replies.

 

[SEL]

Thank you thats why we are all so shocked. Don't suppose you find out if they are a genuine seller until you have a problem. But they are a very well known dealer with no a single negative on any of the dodgy dealer sites.

I think they are going down the small claims, vet has written a decent email to support.

At least they had it vetted - 2 cobs from a dealer bought unseen is how one of my old yards ended up with strangles.

An old friend of mine (adult) had a welshie who was gelded at 9 and he never entirely got over his stallion tendencies.

 

[Gloi]

You may consider this dealer "reputable" but how long have they had the pony and what sort of place did it come from before? I suspect the dealer got it from somewhere very dubious. 12yo and just gelded I wouldn't consider suitable for a child except in exceptional circumstances and it may be still stallion like when turned out with others, causing problems.
Personally I'd run a mile and any loss of deposit nothing towards what future problems may appear.

 

[Puzzled]

I’d be concerned about the chance of an infection where he has been recently gelded. It would also slightly concerned me that this wasn’t mentioned to the purchaser. It could mean one of two things
A) He was a very quiet stallion and didn’t need Gelding up until this point
B) he has done very little ridden work up until now and being sold as a riding pony he needed to be gelded.

As for the strangles test, these are often a complete waste of time. They very really come back negative and lots of vets won’t even test again but gutteral pouch wash straightaway. I wouldn’t expect the dealer to pay for this. That is the purchases responsibility.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

How can that pony be fit for purpose? Most people expect to be able to load their new purchase up and take it home ASAP after the vetting. If the pony stays at the dealer's until all the issues are sorted out, anything else could have happened to it before it's fit to travel to the new yard. It would need a 2nd vetting. What on earth would the dealer accept as not fit for purpose? Pony found to only have 3 legs?

 

[ycbm]

As for the strangles test, these are often a complete waste of time. They very really come back negative and lots of vets won’t even test again but gutteral pouch wash straightaway. I wouldn’t expect the dealer to pay for this. That is the purchases responsibility

IME they normally come back negative and most horses that are required to have one to move onto a livery yard move with no delay. Strangles antibodies in the blood indicate an infection within the last 6 months, and a percentage of infected horses will become healthy carriers of live bacteria that nobody wants in their yard. I can't see why you think it should be the buyer's responsibility to clear the horse of evidence of strangles.
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[Wishfilly]

If the dealer did not disclose the gelding, I would be arguing that the pony is not fit for purpose as a child's pony, and so the deposit should be returned. I don't know how it would go in small claims, but maybe they will get a horsey judge?

I think this is the issue with vettings not really being pass/fail. I have been to a few dealers who said deposit, returnable if they fail the vet, in one case I queried this further as at the time I was seriously interested in a pony. The dealer did clarify that she basically meant that the deposit was returnable if the pony came back as lame- which is obviously not the only issue that can show up on vetting!

 

[dottylottie]

if the pony has been gelded whilst with the dealer, i’d be wondering what he was doing for the dealer to think he needed gelding. vetting aside, very strange to not disclose and i can’t imagine gelding would stop all the previous behaviours at his age.

 

[Puzzled]

IME they normally come back negative and most horses that are required to have one to move onto a livery yard move with no delay. Strangles antibodies in the blood indicate an infection within the last 6 months, and a percentage of infected horses will become healthy carriers of live bacteria that nobody wants in their yard. I can't see why you think it should be the buyer's responsibility to clear the horse of evidence of strangles.
.

Well, when horses have been in my ownership for years and still test positive there’s obviously something wrong. Especially when further investigations come back negative. In my experience most vets now pouch wash straightaway and don’t bother with another test (unless the horse has recently travelled in from elsewhere).
It’s the buyers responsibility because the tests aren’t 100% accurate. Around 90% of positive blood tests are negative on a gutteral pouch wash.

 

[ycbm]

Well, when horses have been in my ownership for years and still test positive there’s obviously something wrong. Especially when further investigations come back negative. In my experience most vets now pouch wash straightaway and don’t bother with another test (unless the horse has recently travelled in from elsewhere).
It’s the buyers responsibility because the tests aren’t 100% accurate. Around 90% of positive blood tests are negative on a gutteral pouch wash.

I'm not sure you understand what the blood test is. It tests for antibodies which will show that the horse has been exposed to the strangles bacteria (edit) mostly in the last 6 months. The way then to tell if the horse has live bacteria in its system is a guttural pouch wash. Most horses with antibodies in the blood will not still be carrying live bacteria so the guttural pouch wash will be clear. That doesn't mean the blood test was wrong.

I wouldn’t accept a seller telling me that it was my problem to prove a horse which had been exposed to strangles bacteria was no longer carrying any.
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[HorsesRule2009]

Unfortunately the bloods often come back high and the only way to go forward is a GPW.
Also some horses can always test high on bloods even YEARS after exposure to the virus

 

[minesadouble]

Being Devil's advocate a Strangles test is not part of a 5 stage vetting.
Last year we tried a pony and arranged a vetting, asking the vet to proceed with a Strangles test only if the pony was thought 'fit for purpose'. The vet called me 15 minutes into the vetting with a couple of issues had found and asked did I want him to proceed with the full 5 stage and the Strangles test and I said no.
This is, to me, normal practice. I would assume if the pony was tested for Strangles then the Vet must have deemed it fit for purpose?
We have a large livery yard and all of our newcomers have to be Strangles tested. We have had so many have a positive blood test ALL of them have had a negative guttural pouch result!
We even had one which was moving off our yard have a negative blood test one week and a positive the next. So IMO the test is a necessary precaution but not very reliable.

If the pony is a native many are shown entire, but if the owner wants to sell they may castrate to broaden their market as so few yards have stallion facilities. Just because he is recently gelded doesn't necessarily mean he is unsuitable for a 12 year old.

I certainly wouldn't like to argue this one in court, there are far too many grey areas.

 

[ycbm]

Being Devil's advocate a Strangles test is not part of a 5 stage vetting.

You're right and I forgot that if I knew I was taking a horse to a place that required a strangles test then I would have made passing that part of the conditions of having the deposit returned.

Everyone in that situation needs to do that, because some horses are carriers who keep the virus active in their systems though they aren't ill themselves and clearing that and then proving it clear isn't going to be cheap and is sometimes even impossible without surgery.

I formed my opinions on this after the owner of a horse I had owned contacted me in desperation because she had bought him and found he was a strangles carrier and she could not get it clear. At that point he was isolated and miserable in a field on his own and she was planning to have him PTS. She'd only bought him a few months before.

He was not fit for purpose as a riding club horse as he couldn’t safely be near any other horse who wasn't known to be immune.
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