MrsMozartleto
Just passing through...
Oh that's disappointing. I liked Spillers for the horses.
Oh that's disappointing. I liked Spillers for the horses.
TheBigPony
Well-Known Member
I would imagine as long as it is in their terms and conditions, they can do that. Obviously not a great situation. I would stop having a group visit, they might get the message if they have to keep coming back to the same yard.
Unfortunately, horses are not included in the CMA investigation, they are just looking at small animals/pets.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I'm feeling very fortunate!
Many, many years ago we were with a independent mixed practice, then the best horse vet left and started his own equine and small animal practice.
We followed himwere very happy until he retired and sold the practice, which stopped treating horses. Then we went to another one man band - brilliant vet, hopeless business man- who bought in small animal OOH cover which was miles away and just didn't make provision for the equine side OOH. And there came a time when we needed it.
So we went back to the original practice, which has now become much bigger, split equine/farm and small animals. They have recently set up a dedicated equine unit, with good facilities for work-ups etc.
There are also 2 other independent large and small animal.practices within reasonable travelling distance.
So, although we have Vets4Pets, we don't seem to have much pressure from the chains.
A former colleague who lives less than 20 miles away found her small animal.practice taken over by a chain when the senior vet retired. She gave them a chance but fell out with them over inflated bills for her very elderly, already very expensive dog. She is now with a husband and wife practice and happy with them.
Many, many years ago we were with a independent mixed practice, then the best horse vet left and started his own equine and small animal practice.
We followed himwere very happy until he retired and sold the practice, which stopped treating horses. Then we went to another one man band - brilliant vet, hopeless business man- who bought in small animal OOH cover which was miles away and just didn't make provision for the equine side OOH. And there came a time when we needed it.
So we went back to the original practice, which has now become much bigger, split equine/farm and small animals. They have recently set up a dedicated equine unit, with good facilities for work-ups etc.
There are also 2 other independent large and small animal.practices within reasonable travelling distance.
So, although we have Vets4Pets, we don't seem to have much pressure from the chains.
A former colleague who lives less than 20 miles away found her small animal.practice taken over by a chain when the senior vet retired. She gave them a chance but fell out with them over inflated bills for her very elderly, already very expensive dog. She is now with a husband and wife practice and happy with them.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
This is what we do. We make sure we book vaccinations etc a day apart, or even at opposite ends of the same day, so every time they come out we can say "oh, if only you still did shared call-outs"
. We are paying twice, so just as well get our money's worth. They tried to tell me they've always charged if it wasn't the same yard. I pointed out that if they looked back on my billing history, they'd see many shared call-outs. I can't have been on the same yard as anyone as It's just me on my land.WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
I use Dengie instead - I trust them because the ingredients are less complicated.
MrsMozartleto
Just passing through...
Interesting. Thank you.
It's good timing as just looking at the right combination/s for the winter feeding - have a bunch of good doers but like to give a bit when checking over, good for meds if any, and get more fluid in.
Off to investigate!
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Do you know why the CMA are only investigating services for household pets?
Their remit includes services for businesses, so that would include agriculture & equine businesses.
People around here have stopped treating their sheep due to the vet bills. It’s been discussed by the Cairngorms National Park.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
I know which sounds more suitable…
Dengie Healthy Hooves:
Alfalfa pellets, straw pellets, cereal straw, alfalfa, rapeseed oil, vitamin and mineral premix, Methyl Sulfonyl Methane, garlic.
Spillers
Happy Hoof Ingredients: Nutritionally improved straw, Chopped straw, Wheatfeed, Dry lucerne, Low sugar molglo, Oatfeed, Ricebran, Grass nuts, Calcium carbonate, Vegetable oil, Soya oil, Vitamins and minerals, Calcined magnesite, Dried spearmint 0.25%, Garlic 0.25%, Salt.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I would be interested to see the research and studies supporting that statement. Could you share the links please.
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
MrsMozartleto
Just passing through...
Hm. Was attempting to do a 'Reply' but got myself into a pickle.
Interesting list. I'm no expert so would have to think through those as a basic compare and contrast would seem fairly equal (bearing in mind I'm no nutritionist!), and some of the things I don't know what they are so have to go looksee.
Interesting list. I'm no expert so would have to think through those as a basic compare and contrast would seem fairly equal (bearing in mind I'm no nutritionist!), and some of the things I don't know what they are so have to go looksee.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Can you post links?
Processed Dog Food and Cancer | The Canine Nutritionist
Processed dog food and cancer. Highly processed commercial dog food is causing cancer and other problems, says The Canine Nutritionist.
www.caninenutritionist.co.uk
Obvs you need a meta-analysis with Randomised Control Trials to prove this…
…however…many vets are specifically concerned about the temperature that dog food is heated to: many vitamins break down in the heating process, and it provides no microbiome
to the gut.
I will try and find the link
to the vet who is researching the association between the shorter life span of dogs and dog food.
The link between the microbiome in the gut + cancer is being increasingly well researched in humans. Millennials have a risk of bowel cancer that is comparable to those in their 60s: this is mainly a consequence of diet and especially additives and preservatives.
+ lack of fibre in processed food.
There is substantial research on obesity in horses and the way feed is formulated and promoted: google research from the Royal Dick veterinary school, Edinburgh.
The research shows that many owners feed a complete feed + supplements - therefore creating a mineral imbalance purely due to misleading advice from the feed companies.
This study reported acrylamide, a carcinogenic substance produced by the Maillard reaction, in dog food, as a part of understand the mechanism of canine carcinogenesis. These results indicated that the average concentrations of acrylamide in dry, retort, and canned dog food were 39.6, 11.0, and 10.7 ng/g, respectively. Among the three, dry dog food exhibited significantly higher concentration. The daily intake of acrylamide by dogs was calculated to be 590 ng/kg/day, which is approximately four times higher than that of humans.
Last edited:
TheMule
Well-Known Member
We are so, so lucky in this country to be able to access fully 24/7 specialistvet care for our animals. Sadly it is hard to make money from providing this service on a small scale, hence why many practices are being sold to larger businesses.
But, if you want this incredible access to be able to continue then you have to accept that someone, somewhere, needs to make money from it.
My OH works for 2 different practices- 1 owned by a bigger corporation, 1 independent. When he bills the clients it comes out more expensive through the independent vet for the same procedures/ drugs.
But, if you want this incredible access to be able to continue then you have to accept that someone, somewhere, needs to make money from it.
My OH works for 2 different practices- 1 owned by a bigger corporation, 1 independent. When he bills the clients it comes out more expensive through the independent vet for the same procedures/ drugs.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
I want my vet to make money out of doing the best for my animals - not by increasing the ‘consumption’ of veterinary services.
The incentives for are misaligned with animal welfare.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I wouldn't feed either of those!
Apart from anything else why the garlic?
BronsonNutter
Well-Known Member
I thought you used OH? Out of hours is still the same vets (our vets) but it's just that the phone goes through to an answering service rather than to the vets directly. I'm not sure if the phone answering service is corporate owned or not, they do the phones for a lot of practices including the university.
Unless of course I've got confused, but I'm pretty sure equicall doesn't really cover our area (their nearest base is Manchester I believe)
TheMule
Well-Known Member
You do know that the people who provide the OOH service are also qualified equine vets? Who actually usually have more experience with emergency situations and are real experts in the field, having weekly specialist CPD meetings and a group to discuss cases with as they happen?
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Palatability + insect repellant?
I now feed mainly unmolassed sugar beat pulp & unmolassed Alfa-A…but I have to go a long way (50 miles) to get straights.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Garlic upsets the gut biome and has little to no effect as a fly repellant. Horses don't eat it from choice I.e. seek it out when grazing
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Our study shows that for food , the animal fed with home made food (based on similar food as the family) reach an average age of 13.1 years, as the animals fed with canned industrial food, reach an average age of 10.4 years. The animals fed with mixed food (home made plus canned food) reach an average age of 11.4 years.
The difference between the two extremes amounts to more than 32 months, i.e. close to 3 years. This great difference shows that food is a major and determinant factor for the dogs' life expectancy. Giving it home made food is a guarantee for better protection, well being and longer life expectancy.
What makes the difference between the two types of food? (home made and industrial canned food) It is the basic quality of the ingredients used ( quality of the basic protein, quantity and faculty to assimilate vitamins and minerals when using natural products...) the importance of physical or chemicals treatments applied during the fabrication process. Indeed, canned-food processing requires various physical treatments: ( high temperature, lyophilisation, extrusion, flaking) anda l s o chemicals treatments
hydrolysis, coloring, additives.. ....)It is clear from our analvsis that the implication ofthe proprietor of the dog in the selection of food served to the animal is of the greatest importance and that the life expectancy for his dog is directly related with the quality of the food.”
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
What are Gerald's qualifications?Processed Dog Food and Cancer | The Canine Nutritionist
Processed dog food and cancer. Highly processed commercial dog food is causing cancer and other problems, says The Canine Nutritionist.
Here is a link to the experts who advise Royal Canin, click on each one to see their qualifications.
Our Experts
The Puppy & Kitten Expert Board was created to unite some of the best specialists in the veterinary world to help ensure that cats and dogs have a healthy start in life. We know that begins long before they are born in many cases, and affects their health and life long in the future. Get to know...
Of those I have previously listened to Cecilia Villaverde speak and also Prof Alex German. Guest speakers, not promoting Mars foods.
Nutrition and its effect on renal and urinary conditions
A number of conditions affect the renal and urinary systems in dogs and cats, and … more
www.vettimes.co.uk
Professor Alex German | Our people | University of Liverpool
My dog is raw fed.
My 14 year old healthy cat thrives on Sheba trays and Royal Canin kibble (both Mars).
Last edited:
TheBigPony
Well-Known Member
I would suspect because they haven't received as many complaints from horse owners. However, that is just my guess!
I actually contacted the CMA and the response was that it was just household pets but they wouldn't expand. They just said they had noted the need to look into the equine sector.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
Experts they may be, but here you could be waiting anything up to 2 hours for them to get to you, such is the distance they cover. They are also considerably more expensive than my corporate vets were when they covered their own OOH. I have used them and luckily I only had to wait 45 minutes and found the vet fine. I could afford the £300+ and another £100+ the next day as he could only provide basic first aid care in the evening, but not everyone can.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That’s helpful.
I wonder why Agriculture is not also included.
If the National Park Authority contact the CMA re:farming & equine, I suppose they might take note of that.
Pet owners seems to cover all dog owners but all dogs are not pets. Gamekeepers seem to be left out: increasingly they work on a contractual basis.
TheMule
Well-Known Member
Again, I will point out how lucky we are to have such a service available. It's still quicker than a human ambulance. And yes, sometimes it might take 2 hours- usually because they’re over the other side of the zone treating something more serious. It costs a lot to provide the service. If you want vets to be paid a fair wage (and trust me, it is not a super well paid job for the years of training and the inconvenient hours!) then you as a client have to expect to pay. If my partner only gets 1 call per evening (such is the unpredictability of emergency work- there will be evenings where no money is earned) then the £300 has to cover the fuel to get to you, the maintenance of the car, the drugs and equipment used and his time on a 12 hour shift. That’s actually not very much when you think about it to keep someone on call.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Maybe pricing is more competitive where one corporate do not have a monopoly?
I fully support vets being well paid and fairly paid.
The Vet & Clinical Director of the practice was unhappy with the charges for his horses.
I have emailed by local IVC practice 2 times to ask them how much vaccination + callout fee will cost, no reply.
Why the lack of transparency?
Firstly, they needed to see the passport, so I emailed a photo…then they tell me the job in my area on Wednesday has been cancelled *before* they even asked for my name/ animal name/ postcode.
My friend has emailed her practice 3 times to request call out fees…because she found out that someone living further down the road was paying less. No Reply.
It seems like they are just making the prices up.
Last edited:
holeymoley
Well-Known Member
Just to add on the horse feed side of things, Simple System have probably the ‘straightest’ feeds out there in terms of chaff and cubes. I used Spillers and Dengie and all sorts of other marketed stuff before I knew enough about what was in them. I do think they have contributed to my horse’s metabolic condition and others alike. I’m not saying it’s solely down to these feeds but I do think it’s contributed if they are already predisposed to having a metabolic problem. I believe too that there’s a higher chance that metabolic problems are genetic too but as far as I’m aware studies are still ongoing with that.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
It was well over £300, but I can't remember the exact cost. I'm really not begrudging paying for a service, I'm just pointing out that the service I receive is less than when my vets did it themselves, and at a much higher cost.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Simple System, would be my preference but the stockist map on their website has a massive hole near me.
It seems like the only ‘brand’ that actually sells food suitable for horses but the feed merchant won’t buy it in.
Although I am hoping Equibeet & Purabeet seem much of a muchness….
meleeka
Well-Known Member
I found it easy to order direct and have it delivered.
holeymoley
Well-Known Member
I'm up in Scotland and found this too, it was actually easier to buy it straight from them. I think delivery was £8 which is not bad, even try and split with another livery. Or I think if you buy one of their balancers you get free delivery.
Funnily enough now the demand has increased and I have a supplier 5 minutes away now!
In terms of the beet comparison, there are some that you can get similiar. Dengie Alfalfa Pellets are more or less the same as SS Lucie Nuts( not the organice or fibre ones).