Vet or "back person"??

[keeperscottage]

A couple of months ago, I bought a pony specifically to sell on. I buy two or three ponies each year to sell on and carefully choose good ones since my aim is to maintain a good reputation! This little chap turned out to be a Pony Club gem and we just couldn't fault him (only problem being if you approach him in the field with a bridle, he buggers off! Approach him any other time and he comes up to you and follows you about!). Anyway, an ad in Horse and Hound produced several potential buyers and the day before the first person to try him was due, he and his field mate galloped down the length of their field, he slammed on the brakes, swung round on a fore leg and stood stock still.....my daughter thought he'd hurst himself, but he trotted up fine.....However, the following day, whilst being "viewed", every now and again, only a a walk, he would suddenly put in three or four weird jogging/shuffling strides, then walk on. At trot and canter he was fine, although when he landed after a jump, he stuck in three bucks, something he'd never done. Obviously, he must have hurt himself in some way when he shuddered to a halt, but he is completely sound at the walk and trot without a rider, and only puts in these strange lame steps when ridden. My daughter led him from her own horse the following day and he was 100% sound. We gave him just over a week off and he was ridden the other day, but after several circuits of the arena at a walk, he started "shuffling" again. At trot, fine. Spoke to my vet who thought he may have tweeked his splint bone. Before incurring substanial vet bills, I thought I'd take the "wait and see approach". Several friends have suggested getting a "back person" but I'm a bit of a sceptic in that area. One friend wondered whether he'd jarred his withers and he does seem a bit sensitive in that area. Anyone got any ideas as to this problem? What do you think of "back people"? Do you think I should give him bute for a couple of days for anti-inflamatory purposes (but I don't want to mask the problem)? Really hope someone out there has some ideas!

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Definately get the back person out!!! I don't understand why people dont?? It's highly possible when he halted so quickly he could have put his back out or tweeked a muscle or nerve. My horse went lame after he refused a jump quite suddenly - had physio out, not vet, and he had done his back in stopping so quick. One session of that (£35) and he was back to normal.
Get the physio out!!! Before it turns into something bigger. xx

 

[keeperscottage]

Thanks for that, Kayleigh_and_Rocky. Your horse's situation with the sudden stop at a jump is similar to our pony's gallop and abrupt stop!

 

[Guinness]

Depends...if you know and trust your vet then i would stick with them as vets are more qualified than physios and chiropractors. If your vet can recommed a physio then it would be worth getting them out too. There are two ways of physios becoming qualified, the BSc/MSc route or you can take a course in animal therapy so it might be worth checking qualifications and recommendations before getting a physio out too.

 

[siennamum]

I would NEVER get a back person out without a vet referral. Especially if it's a back person I don't know, to treat something undiagnosed.
Apart from anything else, that person upon treating the pony would be acting illegally.

 

[WFL]

There are back people and there are back people. Some are excellent and can work wonders. Others are next to useless. My AI is also a McTimoney chiro, which is an excellent combination.

A very good back person will help you find the root cause of the problem as well as treat the symptoms. Feet, saddles, teeth, saddle cloths, etc. could all be single or partial root causes.

 

[pootler]

As far as I am aware it is in fact 'illegal' to let a back person look at your horse without specific dispensation from a vet.

If you are worried I would get out the vet in the first instance, I used a back person who said my boy was stiff throught the poll I spent hundreds on manipulation etc. Eventually got the vet out who ultimately diagnosed a sacroilliac strain and the horse ended up loss of use. Things may have been different if I had been to the vet first

 

[Imonone]

To be honest they dont have to be mutually exclusive, many good vets have a back person (physio, osteo etc) attached to the practice,as human doctors do now.

Ask your vets do have a look and refer you to a back person if required.

Sounds like the pony has tweaked something in its back as the loading of the back with a rider seems to be causing some difficulty that wasnt there before. As humans do the pony will start to try to compensate if not right and things could get worse. Good luck

 

[star]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I am aware it is in fact 'illegal' to let a back person look at your horse without specific dispensation from a vet.

If you are worried I would get out the vet in the first instance, I used a back person who said my boy was stiff throught the poll I spent hundreds on manipulation etc. Eventually got the vet out who ultimately diagnosed a sacroilliac strain and the horse ended up loss of use. Things may have been different if I had been to the vet first

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly! it is ILLEGAL to have someone look at your horse without a referral from a vet and any physio worth their salt wont do it. Usually it only takes a phone call to the vet to ask them to recommend someone, but sometimes a vet will refuse to refer you without seeing the horse. A physio is not qualified to make a diagnosis of lameness and often lameness is what causes back problems. As for "back people" with no qualifications, most of them are quacks who rabble on about pelvises being "out" and other such impossibilities and i wouldn't let them within 10miles of my horse.

 

[Lucy_Ally]

[ QUOTE ]
A physio is not qualified to make a diagnosis of lameness and often lameness is what causes back problems. As for "back people" with no qualifications, most of them are quacks who rabble on about pelvises being "out" and other such impossibilities and i wouldn't let them within 10miles of my horse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Star! How can a back person possibly treat an un-diagnosed problem. I would only use physios and chiros under the supervion of my vet.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

[/ QUOTE ] A physio is not qualified to make a diagnosis of lameness and often lameness is what causes back problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

applauds

people never believe this when I tell them. always vet first.

 

[ErinDoig]

I would have the vet look at him first and then with his confirmation that it is a back problem then go ahead and get the chiro out. Better safe than sorry

 

[Thistle]

There are a couple of good back people that work with vets round here.

 

[MurphysMinder]

We first used our back lady after being referred by the vet and they seem to work well together. Our pony who has back problems has routine "services" but Emma always has a word with the vet first. The vets never charge me for this.I think it is important to use a qualified back person, and presumably they will ask for a vet to check out the pony first anyway.

 

[glenruby]

Star has made a few excellent points in her above posts. Always get the vet first. Ireland has a few different laws about referrals than those in the UK but even here its still advisable to get the vet out first.
As regards anyone who is a "physio" and qualified through equine therapy (and not human physio)- they CANNOT legally practice as equine physiotherapists in the UK and to employ them to do so is illegal. It is however legal in the USA to qualify through this route but they are not allowed to call themselves equine "physiotherapists" and there is only one college at which you can study it (Midway College (for girls) in Kentucky). A friend of mine has qualified through this route and I must say she is very good at what she does and workes for most of the top studs in KY. There was also an english girl doing an internship with her at the time. The girl was in the process of transferring from Hartpury toMidway to do this equine therapy course but as she told me, she will not legally be able to practice in the UK when she finishes.
(Sorry for going off on a tandem there!)
Ok, as regards for "back people" - DrJames is right - there are a lot of people out there who practice as back people/chiropractors/? who have no qualifications or at least not good qualifications. Im sure most people who have ever used an equine chiropractor have been told their horse has put their hip out of slipped a disk etc ALL of which is physically impossible for the horse. If you are employing a backperson for your horse, it is most important to find one with a working knowledge of equine anatomy. Also in my experience if any back person turns up with long ropes which they tie around your horses legs and pull to "solve" back problems or hip/shoulder problems - beware. This practice is called "long axis traction" and while yes it may help your horses back problem, as you can imagine it will also put all the joints between the pasturn (where the rope is attached) and the affected joint, under great pressure and can easily cause immense damage to these joints. The better trained chirpractors use "short axis traction" - some of you may have seen a BP pressing on the horses spine or sacroiliac joint with the palm of their hand and heard things "clicking" into place before - this practice is less likely to cause any damage as only the on joint is involved.
One Association that produces well trained chirporactors (who are usually vets too) is the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. There are a few BPs certified with them working in the UK - though only one is an actual vet. there are some other decent qualifications too though.
http://www.avcadoctors.com/certified_member_doctors/europeaustralia.htm

I have to admit, I used to be quite sceptical about "backpeople" but I have met a few (ie 2 out of 9 or so) that have made a visible difference. In fact this summer was the first time Iv met a chirpractor (equine of course) that could tell me the exact working of the joints (he knew i was a vet student and hes a qualified vet himself though he doesnt work in that area now) and since Iv a decent knowledge of anatomy from college I could understand what he was telling me.
Look up Dr Deb Bennett for more info on equie chiropractics - a good informative site.

BTW I know while most BPs are pressing on a horses spine/joints/? the handler will often hear a loud "click" to which the BP usually says " There, you heard that?" -don't be fooled! Many of these guys have the ability to crack their wrist (just as some people crack their knuckles) and more often than not the "click" you hear is not from the horse, but from the chiropractor!

Sorry - i know i went a bit off topic!!

 

[siennamum]

Great post - really informative.
I've had to leave a yard previously as my sole voice - against an absolute cowboy of a backman - was so unpopular, so this is a subject very close to my heart.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Thanks for a very informative post. I know my back lady is fully qualified, she is also a human physiotherapist! My daughter looked at equine physiotherapy as a career in case she didn't get the grades for veterinary (luckily she did) and as I understand it you have to qualify as a human physio and then do further training to treat horses.

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

[ QUOTE ]
it is ILLEGAL to have someone look at your horse without a referral from a vet and any physio worth their salt wont do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bulls**** MANY MANY top riders work very closely with physios, dentists, vets and nutritionist. I trust my physio immensely and she works on Rocks several times a year and more often if there is a problem - the same way I see a sports physio several times a year!!! If the physio is fully qualified you DO NOT need referal from your vet for general treatment, the same way you do not need it in humans.

 

[star]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it is ILLEGAL to have someone look at your horse without a referral from a vet and any physio worth their salt wont do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bulls**** MANY MANY top riders work very closely with physios, dentists, vets and nutritionist. I trust my physio immensely and she works on Rocks several times a year and more often if there is a problem - the same way I see a sports physio several times a year!!! If the physio is fully qualified you DO NOT need referal from your vet for general treatment, the same way you do not need it in humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont be so bloody rude! i'm a vet - do you not think they taught us about the law regarding these things at uni? you can write in capital letters all you like, it doesn't change the law. top riders do work closely with their physios, but also with their vets and their vets are aware of the physio treatment and are fine with it. what is illegal is for a physio to agree to work on a horse without that horse's vets knowledge - you can call it bullshit all you like, but that's the truth, whether you personally like it or not. it is to safeguard the horse from being pulled around by a physio or whoever else without the vet having a chance to make a diagnosis first and I 100% guarentee that is the truth. I absolutely respect physio's and work with them myself and every single decent one who values their business will want a vet to see the horse first. The exception to this will be routine, maintenance treatment on competition horses, but that is not treatment for a specific problem like this thread is about and in those cases as I said above, the vet is usually aware of this treatment as it is mentioned at vaccination visits etc. Just calling a physio/back person etc when you suspect a back problem is not the idea - the vet should be consulted first and will then advise physio treatment if they consider the back to be the root of the problems. more often than not we see animals who have been manipulated by tom, dick and harry and actually all their issues were secondary to a primary limb problem causing a subtle lameness affecting the way they carry themselved and making their backs and their muscles sore. only a vet is qualified to diagnose lameness and that's why this law exist, and exist it most certainly does! and you cannot compare the veterinary world to the medical world - there are many, many differences due to the fact that horses cannot speak or act for themselves and so more laws are in place to safeguard them.

 

[star]

this is taken from a local extremely well known physio's website:

Communication with the referring veterinary surgeon is vital where ongoing treatment is being run concurrently with physiotherapy. We recommend regular veterinary evaluation to identify the early signs and stages of lameness and disease.

Call for a telephone assessment today. If treatment for your animal is indicated, we will arrange a veterinary referral and help your animal as soon as possible


Should I put the veterinary referral bit in capital letters for you or is that clear enough?

 

[star]

this is taken from a Horse and Hound article on "back people". I think it reads pretty clear:

"Are you breaking the law?

It is an offence for anyone, other than the owner, to treat an animal without the permission of the vet. This is to ensure that a proper diagnosis is made and any medical or complementary treatment is appropriate.


The Protection of Animals Act means that owners who allow an animal to be treated without veterinary consent are themselves liable to prosecution. Similarly, indemnity insurance held by any practitioner would be invalid if permission had not been sought and received.


This law refers only to the manipulative therapies, which are, anyway, those most commonly used when a horse has a back problem.


These include:


osteopathy, intended to work on areas of tension and inflammation in the muscles, ligaments and joints

chiropractic, which focuses on the musculoskeletal system and mainly the neck, back and pelvis

physiotherapy, which can utilise lasers and electrotherapy as well as manipulation and stretches

equine sports massage, which concentrates on the soft tissue and can provide pain relief.
Other possible treatments such as acupuncture and homeopathy can only ever be carried out by a specially trained vet. "

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1370/57026.html

 

[star]

now having taken the time to find proof to back myself up which really shouldn't be necessary, i will sit and await an apology for you saying what i wrote was bullshit which i really find quite offensive and downright unpleasant.

 

[keeperscottage]

Oh, my God, I didn't realise my post was going to cause such heated discussion! I'm usually the sort of person who calls a vet out immediately (much to the amusement of a young friend whose mother is a vet - her horses seem to get the "wait and see approach" - she can't believe how quickly I ring my vet, who isn't her mother, by the way!) I must admit to being a total sceptic about "back people" remembering how I laughed many years ago when a friend told me that her "back person" had told her that her horse's problems were due to it's skull not being connected to its spine.................. However, because it's been so long for this "back person cynic" to consider such treatment that I honestly had no idea that a vet's opinion/referral was required first. Just had a bill from my vet today for over £300 for a kick........Has anyone got any idea what could possibly be the cause of our pony's strange gait at the walk when ridden (and at no other time) following his mad charge around the field, and abrupt halt????

 

[Stoxx]

Hi,

I take all comments on board that have already been posted and obviously a vet check to make sure it is infact not something else causing the problem would be a good way to go. In regards to having a 'back person' or physio out i'd tread carefully. I was recommended one by my vet who did a lot more harm than good (and i have since found out did the short cut version to get her so called status). My horse was off work for a long time and was seen to weekly, poor boy ended up worse off than he had been before. That was 6 yrs ago and I am still dealing with the consequences caused by her (physcological). I have a very good physio now that sees to him, she is properly qualified and very highly thought of in the horse world. I am based in Essex so there is every chance she may come out to you, if you would like contact details at any point just ask. I couldn't recommend her highly enough