Vet permission - they dont pay the bill

Oh and by the way - thanks for all those pointing a finger at me for being neglectful - I have done everything I could have and taken professional advice - so thanks you really have helped
 
ecrozier said:
It's illegal for them not to notify vets isn't it?! With our vets it's simply a phone call to tell them, certainly not 'asking permission'!
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This ^^

Afaik, you don't need a qualified back person to give a massage. My mate is a qualified sports equine massage therapist: she does not need permission to massage my horse. My back person, though, requires the vet to be informed, I didn't have to ask permission and get my mum to write me a note or anything :rolleyes:
 
Actually by binning your back lady for doing what her legal duty is you are depriving your horse of what sounds like much needed treatment because you are p*ssed at your vet so actually no you are not doing everything you can.
 
Hey,
We need vets permission as it is a legal requirement because there are contra-indications to treatments. For example massage should not be performed on a horse that has undiagnosed lameness.

It is a pain to get vet permission but there is good reasoning for it.
 
Gingerwitch said:
Oh and by the way - thanks for all those pointing a finger at me for being neglectful - I have done everything I could have and taken professional advice - so thanks you really have helped
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I don't think any one has accused you of being neglectful we simply disagree with you you should not expect this lady to break the law especially as the horse is under treatment for a undiagnosed condition .
 
Chaos said:
Hey,
We need vets permission as it is a legal requirement because there are contra-indications to treatments. For example massage should not be performed on a horse that has undiagnosed lameness.

It is a pain to get vet permission but there is good reasoning for it.
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Second this, contraindications for massage are quite important, as for any other invasive means of treatment, just because it is over skin doesn't mean it can't cause damage, one of many reasons I don't let a so called professional in my area near my horse.

GW I am really sorry for your obvious distress and apologies if I have added to it. Do as another poster has said and get a senior practitioner out but don't punish your horse by denying it the treatment because you need vets permission.
 
There are two separate issues here. You are angry that your vets have been unable to cure your horse, so now you resent having to involve them in this. As others have pointed out, the back lady needs permission from your vet before she treats. Usually this just involves a quick phone call to the vet to say "X is coming to treat my horse, is this okay?". I've never known a vet to say no - it is not, as you appear to be suggesting, a question of them controlling what you do with your horse. This isn't a rule dreamed up by your vets to annoy you! It is the case for any physio and it wouldn't matter what veterinary practice the customer was with. But if you're not happy with the way the practice has been treating your horse in general, stop moaning about it and get a vet from a different practice to come and give you a second opinion.
 
You lot really know how to stick the knife in ! - dont you think i am already beating myself up about the treatment or lack of it the horse has had ? but when you pay for professional advice and they say the horse does not need more antibiotics and to rest it for another few days and you pay for an emergency call out and get given a *******ing for calling them out to a non emergency - what the hell am i supposed to do? and that the cream fuciderm and is for dogs and is the size of a tube of glue at £37.00 a tube and i am on my 3rd tube - they say it is all they can perscribe what am I supposed to do.

I really hope that when you have an issue and want to let off steam you will be treated a little bit better than I have tonight, watch your step as you climb down from your pedestals
 
its a shame that a break down in trust and treatment has caused such a problem with your vet :(

I am guessing there are no other suitable vets in the area? (sorry if an obvious question)

I ended up getting a second opinion on the treatment of my horse (years ago) the new vet had to drive 60 miles each way but his diagnosis saved me any more un-necessary treatment from my original vet
 
Mud fever = pig oil and sulphur asap. £25 ebay, delivered very quickly, sussex cobs. Bute in the meantime.

Back person = by law they have to ask for vet permission. This is for your horse's protection.
 
I had a back man to my previous horse as part of a yard visit. I was shocked when he said my horse had a problem and wanted to come back... for some reason I thought it was odd and rang my vet just to see if theyd heard of him. I dont really know what a backman should or shouldnt look like but this bloke looked like a decorator. My vets said they had heard of him and he wasnt registered (I realise yours is) because they'd treated a horse after he had basically crippled it as it had a fractured pelvis and because the owner hadnt notified the vet first, was now not covered by their horse insurance. This man wasnt registered, I didnt know that at the time.
I read your post the other day and really feel for you and hope you do get to the bottom of what is up with your horse but in defence of the physio, she is only doing what she has to by law.

Good luck I hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
"She is not an unqualified numpty, she has treated my horses before and is fully qualifed -- "

So why has she not asked you to get your Vets permission before then?? Or have I missed something along the way?
 
Just a suggestion but could it be mites and not mud fever! Just my boy has been suffering and it took vet about 5 weeks to realise it was mites. That worse when he was in. He was biting himself but it looked like thrush.

My osteopathe always get permission before treating because she has to but also because the horse may have had an operation or conditon that if she was to treat could make it worse. All I did was give her my vets number and she did the rest.
 
Noodlebug said:
Just a suggestion but could it be mites and not mud fever! Just my boy has been suffering and it took vet about 5 weeks to realise it was mites. That worse when he was in. He was biting himself but it looked like thrush.

My osteopathe always get permission before treating because she has to but also because the horse may have had an operation or conditon that if she was to treat could make it worse. All I did was give her my vets number and she did the rest.
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Mites is my thought as well, totally different treatment to the way mud fever is treated. Get the vet to check for mites and if it is you need a refund for the treatment so far for mud fever as they should know the difference and then change your vets.
 
I can understand why you are unhappy with your vets op, I think I'd be contacting the senior partner and politely explaining why you aren't happy, you can get a dectomax injection for mites if that's what it is and fuciderm is available in 30g tubes online for about £7, so I'd ask for a script for that too.

I'd be sticking with finding a veterinary diagnosis by changing vets or pestering your current vet rather than going the physio route. Hopefully you'll get to the bottom of your horse's issues soon.
 
It is a legal requirement, any back person that doesnt ask you to, is a dodgy one!!
Also, when you ring the vets, they just say "ok" and it is of little interest to them, takes two seconds and its done, dont see what the issue is, they dont particularly have any interest in it, but its the law!
 
Firstly as others have said, it is the law. It is simply a fact that on the medical records they need a note to say that it has been seen by X back person...nothing more. But this is in case within a short time any issues arise and in which case they can speak to physio and liaise treatment among other things.

Regards mud fever. One of the best products for taking away the pain topically and treating the mud fever itself is called Flammazine. It isn't cheap but does work well and takes away the nasty sting. One question though...are you hibiscrubing it? I had one throw up severe mud fever and NOTHING would cure it and the vet asked me to stop hibiscubbing and change to tea tree shampoo as the hibiscub by nature dries things out more and causes more inflammation. As SOON as I changed it started to get better. A couple topical products you can buy yourself that I find amazing as well as are Nettex Muddy Marvel 7 day Mud Away...have seen horrific cases all cured with this....and then stronger and thus for worse cases is Equine America's Fungatrol cream.

No one has jumped on you at all and you are clearly doing what you can for your horse but at the same time you physio is also doing her job.
 
If it helps a human physio shouldn't see you without letting your doctor know, I'm not so sure they "ask the vets permission" as much as inform them they are treating the horse

I see your frustration, but I think that's your vet rather than the back person.

The annoying thing is you need dermobion, but its out of license here. Are you anywhere near the sea or an equine spa? A good dose of salt will kill most bacteria (failing that a big bucket and salt).
 
just text or ring the vet and say she is coming, it covers you for your insurance and she is required by law to ask you to do it. As to the horses legs, I can understand your frustration, but... I can also see why the vets would get annoyed at an emergency call out for this. its not an emergency. It is a chronic ongoing case, which they need to sort.

You need to look at your bedding, a horse of mine got the worst mud fever I have ever seen when stabled at a riding stables. The top bedding was lovely and clean, but underneath it was wet, and clearly full of bacteria which caused the mud fever. his legs were weeping sores and he was lame on 4 legs. I covered them in Sudacream, wrapped them in turnout boots and redressed every 12 hours. I never used hibiscrub at all on them as it is evil stuff, causes more dryness and soreness and picking scabs off is painful to say in the least. and yes mud fever can make them hopping lame.

Also as others have said it could be mites, so again what bedding are you on?

Stop ranting about the vets, start talking to a senior partner and tell them to get skin scrapes done. In the meantime calm down the inflammation with sudacreme and stop washing them
 
Yep dermobian, its so good, but cant get it these days.
Ive not used it but hear nizoral shampoo is good for mud fever.
I think you need to speak to the ooh vet, when your calm and tell then how dissappointed you were in her manner, while in her eyes she might not have thought mud fever was an emergency, but a horse that is crippled lame by it is in intense pain and that needs to be treated asap, there is still a high risk of a cellulitis developing, which is excruciatingly painful, and can be viewed as an emergency ...... Id have called as well if its any consolation, tbh it doesnt sound like the vets youre using are meeting yours or your horses needs, id vote with my feet and change vets if youre not happy.
 
Oh dear, poor you and poor horse, you sound as if you are at your wits end! If I were you I would phone a different vet and ask for a 2nd opinion, they will contact your surgery, and you can even go back to your previous surgery after! Get the new vets out, see if they can shed some light and whilst they are there, ask the vet if they think it would be a good idea to get a horsey massage....

I feel for you, it's horrid just standing around watching an animal suffer even though you are doing everything you can, and I understand how you feel having to ask your vet, as you feel resentful to them at the moment.

Big hugs XX
 
Severe mud fever can sometimes be very difficult to treat. Your vets can't just prescribe a wonder cream and make it go away, some infections are very stubborn. I do wonder if your expectations are unrealistic. However, you sound as though you no longer have any confidence in them, maybe rightly, so why not change practice?

My mare had it terribly last year. She needed antibiotics and steroids, but even then, it was a lengthy, costly and time consuming process to clear the infection.Topically Flamazine is very good but finally in her case, it was just patience, boring old salt water and sudocreme that worked.

Have the vets done a skin scraping or taken bloods to determine the cause of the infection ? This might be the next step if your horse isn't improving.

It is frustrating to deal with but whatever the cause of your horse's problem, a different vet will have a fresh pair of eyes and either suggest a different approach or confirm that your previous vets were actually prescribing the appropriate treatment.
 
Goldenstar said:
Its the mark of a good complimentary therapist that they consult your vet.
It's not difficult you ring the vet say I am having x look at my horse I take it that's fine and if they say no move to an accommodating vet .
It's the law the therapist whatever they are should do this.
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^^This And also vet's can have an opinion if the horse has a condition. For example a horse on boxrest should not have any deep tissue realignment body work as this could be detrimental to the horse as it could be compensating and this should not be corrected until the condition is improved.
imo they should be working together as a team vet and therapist.
 
rhino said:
Because it's the law?! Poor 'back person', following the law and losing custom over it :( Any one who wouldn't follow this code of practice certainly wouldn't be anyone I wanted anywhere near my animals.

If you don't like the way your vet treats, then find a different vet. Most will be happy to recommend good, registered professionals if they have seen the horse before and are confident that it will do good/do no harm.

In this country, only vets can diagnose. There is the potential to do harm in having a 'back person' out to 'treat' a horse with an injury.
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^^^^^this^^^^^^
 
Gingerwitch said:
Look - its my horse I pay the bills - i can have it shot tonight if i want ! - I am bloody incensed my horse has been being treated for mud fever for 4 weeks - after the first 5 days antibiotics I tell them its still not clearing - leave if for a week they say... so i do - mud fever gets worse and worse (horse stabled by the way and doing every thing i have been told to) - call them out again - give me cream.... call them out again - by this time the bulb of the horses heel is pouring with blood he has scabs all over his legs and they say "oh he has got it bad " yes thats why you were here two days ago ! and you gave me some cream that lasted for approx 4 applications to his scabs.... then the horse is almost crippled - call vets out - they say leave him for 24 hours.... then they say get the on call vet out if I am still not happy..... get the on call vet out to crippled horse on sat - I get given a lecutre that she is for emergency call outs only.... and to get own vet out today...... speak to own vet today.... they say leave him till Wed to see what happens.... they dont know what it is and if x who visited on Sat could not find anything serious (horse is in obvious pain and hobling) then we just need to give it time. And I have to ask them for someone else to look at the crippled animal
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I find some of your post quite offensive . If you are not happy with YOUR VET then change them. I also agree with the physio, they are working within the law and protecting themselves.

It is the Law that you at least inform your vet. Asking a Physio to see your horse is asking another professional to do something to your horse.

Physiotherapy is an invasive treatment.

Vets are human beings as is a Doctor and yes they can be wrong. Vets can only go by what the owner / groom tells them not what the patient can tell them.

Your poor horse and poor physio, they don't need owners like you.

A vet will know the physio's etc in your area so would I am sure be happy to give permission.
 
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YasandCrystal said:
^^This And also vet's can have an opinion if the horse has a condition. For example a horse on boxrest should not have any deep tissue realignment body work as this could be detrimental to the horse as it could be compensating and this should not be corrected until the condition is improved.
imo they should be working together as a team vet and therapist.
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Yes that's right but I would not expect to be told no without a coherent reason , not so much now but when the first equine physio's where starting work you used to get vets who did not accept that it was necessary ( I am quite old old enough to know vets who said things like horses don't get back pain).
Azoturia is a ggod example of a condition where massage may seem like a good idea but is contraindicated at first.
 
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