Vet says DON'T take milk from mare b4 foaling....???

[AJBliss]

That made me giggle

LOL me too!

 

[Spring Feather]

No, I've never done or intended to do it, I like nature to take its course without me screwing things up and thinking I know better. Foal will come when it's good and ready, you've waited 11 months, what's a few more days?

I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing? Milk testing does not speed up foaling. It does not alter the course of foaling. What it does is gives you chemical readings. In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate. Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding. It gives you information, that's all. The foal will come when the foal is ready. For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal. For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference. I foal watch alone. If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June

 

[Spring Feather]

Well, after reading all your posts, I might be tempted to give it a go this year!!! Can someone give me a link to where the (accurate) strips can be purchased. Although I will still have the cameras, monitors and sleepless nights, not paranoid at all

You don't need anything special. You will need swimming pool strips which show ph and calcium (hardness). You need to get the strips which go down to 6ph (many don't go that low) and you need the calcium strips to go up to 800 or more. You need a bottled of distilled water and a mare You take 1cc of milk from the mare and you mix it with 6cc of distilled water. You stick your strips in, take them out and take the reading. Mares in the last week or so will read at between 7ph and just over 8ph. The calcium often rests at 200-300. The calcium is usually the first thing to go up, how high, really depends on the individual mare. I have one mare who goes up to 700 but will not foal at that level until her ph reads at 6.2ph. Mares will usually foal within 24 hours once they drop down to 6.2ph.

I have cameras too. I use all the usual signs to gauge foaling also. What I don't have is 90 days of no sleep

 

[Mugsgame]

I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing? Milk testing does not speed up foaling. It does not alter the course of foaling. What it does is gives you chemical readings. In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate. Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding. It gives you information, that's all. The foal will come when the foal is ready. For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal. For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference. I foal watch alone. If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June

I am finding this thread interesting on so many fronts

Firstly the slightly less important but more niggly issues!! There seems to be a mentality with some people on the forum that all owners with "one or two broodmares" have nothing better to do during the season than sit around watching their mares lol! Perhaps this may be true for a handful, but I should imagine most have proper day jobs to fund themselves as well as their horses or have a busy family or own business too - doing something other than foaling down. I would doubt the decision to sit up 24/7 is taken lightly!

I would also suggest that a good number of smaller herd owners actually are quite knowledgeable and do understand the basis of milk production! It is a shame that issues like this can show such a lack of tolerance between the different schools of thought! Sometimes we just have to accept that people have their own ways of doing things which are working for them! It is great to discover new things - but it is all down to personal oppinion at the end of the day!

Interesting point made earlier about dragging TB studs into the 21st century (along with AI ) maybe some do milk test at this time while many don't - maybe in the future they will, maybe they wont - but given the amount foaling in these big studs and the potential value of the animals involved, combined with the fees being paid by the owners I can't see that in this instance it would reduce the amount of sitting up going on, especially when people are employed to do exactly this. Watch everything close to foaling like a hawk, 24/7.

Right! On a personal note, the testing does interest me - it looks quite helpful in many respects. One question I have though - has noone had a mare catch them out and foal early, with an undeveloped bag - that you weren't watching because the tests said it was safe? It must take a fair bit of trust in them? Be interested to hear more about this!

 

[Maesfen]

I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing? Milk testing does not speed up foaling. It does not alter the course of foaling. What it does is gives you chemical readings. In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate. Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding. It gives you information, that's all. The foal will come when the foal is ready. For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal. For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference. I foal watch alone. If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June

No, it's not rude but does sound a bit condescending TBH.

I understand milk testing but choose not to use it simply because I am fortunate enough to be here 24/7 and I only have one, three at most, mares in foal in any year and even rarer if they're all together. I don't see the point of spending money on strips when it only tells me what I can see or feel myself. For me, I'm very lucky, it is not a chore to stay up watching and having done it for over 20 years, I'm pretty tuned into my mares so don't have many higgledy piggledy nights.
For anyone, like you, who has several to foal and alone or they have day work to deal with too, I understand how helpful they might be but it would be wrong to pretend to novice breeders (as many on here are) that they are the be all and end all and anything other than a helpful tool, a guide only, because they are not infallible (as we've heard already) and nothing beats knowing your mare's usual behaviour and using your eyes.

BTW, took me a long time to get around to using a computer too!

 

[KarynK]

Interesting point made earlier about dragging TB studs into the 21st century...

Right! On a personal note, the testing does interest me - it looks quite helpful in many respects. One question I have though - has noone had a mare catch them out and foal early, with an undeveloped bag - that you weren't watching because the tests said it was safe? It must take a fair bit of trust in them? Be interested to hear more about this!

Sorry been watching those awful sights of those poor people in Japan, I do hope the studs will not be affected!

Actually it was the UK that undertook the original study in the 1980's that led to using Ca testing!! It's just the Americans saw an opportunity and went for it!!

Only one of mine ever have avoided me totally, Pre using testing strips I fell asleep after three and a half weeks of waiting in April and it was drizzling at 12pm, she had the foal right outside the caravan window, the rest of the herd whinnying woke me up!!

One was born in the 15 mins I had in the caravan drinking something hot, she shoved the foal out quick with no visible signs at all, but thanks to the strips I was at least very close, I missed her by a minute or two at the most as they were resting and the foals hind legs were not yet out.

Even if a mare is under-producing fluid my guess is that the body will still be getting the mare ready and that even if there is little liquid an attempt will be made to produce milk of some kind, I don't know for sure no one really does, but after having used these methods over a number of years I do trust them enough to know when to start seriously staying up through the night and that has never been more than a day or so once the levels are hit.

Also it allows you to see what is actually happening with the milk, something the traditionalists will not see as it is something that is not visible unless you test. Visible external signs are ok but are notoriously erratic and can start quite early, my TB's muscles slacken a full month before she foals, no amount of caffeine will get me through that.

But they are not a cure all and are part of a set of signs that tell you to insert the caffeine drip, turn on the cameras and fit the foaling alarm and are a valuable tool in that set.

I use softcheck strips that I get from the USA
http://www.kimdon.com/sofchek_milk_test_strips.php

The refractometer a very useful piece of kit and not expensive, this I would not be without I got from here (I always do a double take at the name when I get an email!!!)
http://www.arssales.com/equine/html/epfo-refractometer.html
I actually sent mine to a friend on holiday who brought it back for me (yes I am a cheapskate) They also do kits but I have not tried these
http://www.arssales.com/equine/html/epfo-predictafoal.html

 

[Touchwood]

Mugsgame, I quite agree, they won't do it in the TB studs because they employ people specifically to sit up, so why spend more money on testing.

Our mares are ALL under camera from 320 days anyway, so we certainly don't rely on it (and I never would - just the same as I don't use foaling alarms, bloody useless things! ), but for us, it gave a nice extra indicator. We always have one person watching, but for instance, when the milk test showed a mare was very imminent, we made sure we had two people on site in case of problems.

You don't need actual milk or wax to test, it is the mammary secretions, so a small bag is not necessarily a massive problem.

 

[Spring Feather]

No, it's not rude but does sound a bit condescending TBH.

I'm sorry you found my reply so. I genuinely thought it might have been informative to you and the others who seemed to hold the belief that milk testing speeds up foaling.

I am here 24/7, this is my business. I obviously use every other sign, just as I have done for the past 25 years. I use cameras and I have used monitors in the past, however when milk testing came along many years ago I tried it and it worked so I continue doing it. My clients want to be able to see their foals born and there is no way possible that anyone can categorically say the foals will be born within 24 hours using normal visual or physical channels. Milk testing allows this, hence my clients who desire so, get to see their foals born.

As I said, it's just grand if people don't want to milk test and it's equally as grand if people do.

 

[cruiseline]

This is a very interesting thread.

I do however think it is a bit harsh to judge others way of doing things, when it quite obviously works for them, their clients and most importantly their mares, be it using milk strips or not.

I personally have never used milk strips, but I am seriously considering giving it a go this year. Especially on one of our mini mares, who despite sitting up for days, has for the past two years managed to have her foal when I was not looking!!!!!!!!! Last year there were no signs what so ever, so we popped out at 7:30pm for a quick bite to eat. We were back in the yard before 9:00pm and there was a dry foal and a cleansed mare!!! The year before we had just gone into the kitchen for dinner at 8:30pm again no signs. When we went back into the lounge, no more than 30 mins later the foal had already been born. She is a little minx

One of our grooms is desperate to see a foal born and for the past two years she has missed everyone. By the time she arrives in the yard, the foals were already on the ground. It sounds like she might get to see one if I can tell her "it will be tonight".

 

[AnShanDan]

I started this thread in all innocence and I seem to have stirred up a lot of debate

I asked the original question because I was surprised at my own vet's reaction to the idea of testing the milk. His only problem seemed to be that it would take away the "seal" on the teat.

My vet knows that I am a farmer's wife, with calving and lambing experience, and many years of horse ownership. He is very relaxed about me foaling the mares in general.

From what everyone who does carry out this type of testing has said, this is not actually a problem in practice. No mares seem to be suffering ill effects from having a ml or 2 of fluid taken for testing.

All I was trying to do was to save myself weeks of lack of sleep and worry. I have several horses and ponies, a family and a full time job, so anything that makes it easier to predict when the mares will foal must be a good idea!

I think I will try the testing. I will also have the mares on camera and my stables are about 20m from my back door. I have already been handling their udders and they are fine about it.

I think for me the advantages of getting a better idea of the chances of foaling and so being able to be sure of being there to assist if nec., outweigh the disadvantages of testing the milk.

Hopefully I will be able to report with positive feedback and photos of the girls and their foals .

 

[Gucci_b]

Well I'm certainly going to give milk testing ago This thread is very interesting and very helpful to someone like myself and others on here who does not want to miss the foaling as I don't really want to be staying down the yard weeks on end. Maybe the milk testing might work for us too !!! nothing ventured nothing to gain