Vet slapped foal on the nose!

Wagtail said:
But I have dealt with headshy horses before and SOMETHING must have caused it, surely?
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I am sure there are things that make it worse but as an example my 17 yr old mare has been with me since she was a 3 yr old, she was brought over from Ireland by my uncle and was living wild in a herd until he bought her. She is a quite head shy and always has been and I am almost certain there has been no whacking about the head with her so there is more than just the beating around the hard theory (equally I have known horses who have been battered about not give a monkeys about having their heads touched?)
 
Wagtail said:
Okay, I'm starting to change my view. I will continue with the softly softly approach whilst it appears to be working (and it is). But if he starts to get worse again then I might correct with an immediate flick of the back of my hand. I think this is far less likely to make him head shy than a smack with a raised hand.
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Nothing to say that what you're doing is wrong - I think you're probably doing an absolutely cracking job.

Horses for courses etc..........
 
I'm another one who is with the vet on this. I've done a lot of stud work - mainly on a large TB stud, and you just can't let foals, particularly colts, get away with anything.

We were often landed with yearlings who were completely out of hand and verging on being dangerous, because their owners had kept them at home with no company from horses of their own age, and been far too soft on them.

Horses bite and kick each other - watch his mother reprimand him, you'll wince when she grabs him by the withers, but that is how foals learn respect. It's a well known fact that hand reared foals generally end up being spoilt brats with serious attitude problems as they get older because they haven't had that discipline from their own kind.

I would say he DEFINITELY needs to go to stud to be turned away with some youngsters, and that a slap on the shnozz is no problem. Obviously you would never really wallop a horse, and I would never dream of smacking a horse about the head, but on the end of the nose, when I'm being bitten by a mouthy foal? I have no problem with that. His mother would do worse!
 
Baggybreeches said:
I am sure there are things that make it worse but as an example my 17 yr old mare has been with me since she was a 3 yr old, she was brought over from Ireland by my uncle and was living wild in a herd until he bought her. She is a quite head shy and always has been and I am almost certain there has been no whacking about the head with her so there is more than just the beating around the hard theory (equally I have known horses who have been battered about not give a monkeys about having their heads touched?)
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worth considering that quite a few Irish horse handlers use ear twitching as a means of controlling youngsters, which is fine for them but means the ultimate horse buyer has an earshy horse :-(

Also ear plaques can make horses very earshy even if they arent very visible.
 
Starzaan said:
I'm another one who is with the vet on this. I've done a lot of stud work - mainly on a large TB stud, and you just can't let foals, particularly colts, get away with anything.

We were often landed with yearlings who were completely out of hand and verging on being dangerous, because their owners had kept them at home with no company from horses of their own age, and been far too soft on them.

Horses bite and kick each other - watch his mother reprimand him, you'll wince when she grabs him by the withers, but that is how foals learn respect. It's a well known fact that hand reared foals generally end up being spoilt brats with serious attitude problems as they get older because they haven't had that discipline from their own kind.

I would say he DEFINITELY needs to go to stud to be turned away with some youngsters, and that a slap on the shnozz is no problem. Obviously you would never really wallop a horse, and I would never dream of smacking a horse about the head, but on the end of the nose, when I'm being bitten by a mouthy foal? I have no problem with that. His mother would do worse!
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Couldn't agree more
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks. That is why I was questioning it, as I knew she was very experienced with foals. But I have dealt with headshy horses before and SOMETHING must have caused it, surely?
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My experience, for what it's worth, is that one quick sharp reprimand when the horse does something wrong, they accept and don't worry about. It's either the repeated smacks when one would have done, or belting them for no reason/with poor timing that leads a horse to be either headshy or nervy in other ways. One good thing to do with horses that bite if you don't like the smacking approach, is hold a metal curry comb between you and them. Hold it still and firmly - they go to nip, connect with the curry comb and think better of it. They don't particularly associate it with you because you're not doing anything, you're standing still and they've simply connected with a bit of you which hurts!
 
I think whatever is done has to be done INSTANTLY. Doesn't have to hurt, but does have to surprise. Our normally quite well behaved NF actually nipped me on Sunday (almost unheard of) as he really really wanted to chomp the very lovely lush long grass we were standing on at a show - he'd been pulling and told no. Now normally he'd have got a sharp quick tap or an elbow on the nose almost before his teeth made contact - but I was holding all manner of rosettes, whips, hats, body protector etc as well as him, so he quickly got a VERY loud yell in his ear. Boy did he look frightened - and no more nipping no more pulling to get down to the grass, instead he looked totally sheepish and just stood there, quite shocked and very well behaved as he should be at a show. Did feel sorry for him - all that grass when there's not a lot in his field!
 
Starzaan said:
I'm another one who is with the vet on this. I've done a lot of stud work - mainly on a large TB stud, and you just can't let foals, particularly colts, get away with anything.

We were often landed with yearlings who were completely out of hand and verging on being dangerous, because their owners had kept them at home with no company from horses of their own age, and been far too soft on them.

Horses bite and kick each other - watch his mother reprimand him, you'll wince when she grabs him by the withers, but that is how foals learn respect. It's a well known fact that hand reared foals generally end up being spoilt brats with serious attitude problems as they get older because they haven't had that discipline from their own kind.

I would say he DEFINITELY needs to go to stud to be turned away with some youngsters, and that a slap on the shnozz is no problem. Obviously you would never really wallop a horse, and I would never dream of smacking a horse about the head, but on the end of the nose, when I'm being bitten by a mouthy foal? I have no problem with that. His mother would do worse!
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^^^^^ everything she says
 
Wagtail said:
Okay, I'm starting to change my view. I will continue with the softly softly approach whilst it appears to be working (and it is). But if he starts to get worse again then I might correct with an immediate flick of the back of my hand. I think this is far less likely to make him head shy than a smack with a raised hand.
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amymay said:
Nothing to say that what you're doing is wrong - I think you're probably doing an absolutely cracking job.

Horses for courses etc..........
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THIS is what I was going to say! If its working for you, then continue with it. If it seems that it stops working, then up the ante. I'd say there's only a wrong way, if you continue what you're doing and it's NOT getting results.

SpottedCat said:
My experience, for what it's worth, is that one quick sharp reprimand when the horse does something wrong, they accept and don't worry about. It's either the repeated smacks when one would have done, or belting them for no reason/with poor timing that leads a horse to be either headshy or nervy in other ways. .....
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Again THIS.
My old horse was headshy but I don't know what had happened to him (if anything).

My young horse can be nervy and she gave me one of a bite one day on my thigh, so I smacked her nose. She pulled up in surprise and I then rubbed her head. She's never gone to bite since, and she often comes up and places her head in the crook of my arm and loves being rubbed all over her face. If I repeatedly smacked her OR even smacked several seconds AFTER the event, I believe she would then start to become headshy.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
worth considering that quite a few Irish horse handlers use ear twitching as a means of controlling youngsters, which is fine for them but means the ultimate horse buyer has an earshy horse :-(

Also ear plaques can make horses very earshy even if they arent very visible.
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Yeah we thought of this, but she was brought from the stud where she was born and was quite literally WILD! (A long story but she was actually sold to someone else and they couldn't catch her so they picked another! She adores my uncle even now so she obviously picked him. No accounting for taste ;) )
 
I had a welsh sec c colt come to stay until he was gelded.

He was bad at nipping and biting people. I was working on the water trough and he came and bit me. As a pure reaction I turned and caught him on the nose I had a mole wrench in my hand. I think because it was sudden it shocked him and he never bit anyone again.
 
Foals, they're a trip aren't they! And nothing can make you feel quite as useless as a horseman sometimes than a baby pushing the boundaries. The most important thing I've learned is one size did not fit all. Obviously consistency is the key for each individual. Smack on the nose isn't my thing but a smack on the shoulder or chest is fine. Or I growl or a combo. Depends on the action.

Owner has a right to do what she wants with her horses, but it's not ideal. Babies need to play and rough house. Not impossible or even wrong to raise them on their own with mom but they don't seem to get as much interaction and the "plays" out. So humans look fun!

I don't believe any professionals should have to deal with bad behaviours in a horse of any age, so maybe next time have baby held or something that makes it easier for vet to get her job done. He will not be scarred for life.

My first 2 foals, one colt, one filly, were so easy. They needed gentle corrections and never pushed the bounds. Thought, well this raising foals is so easy. Why do others seem to have problems. Well my 3rd baby was Satan's Child. It was payback for me thinking I was all that as baby teacher! LOL! She pushed the bounds at everything. And the cute face she had while trying to take you down was priceless. Anyway, let's just say she taught me more than I could have ever hope to learn.

Just be consistent and nip in the bud. Always. Easier said than done!

Terri
 
I understand what the vets saying but slapping a foal on the nose is going to do nothing but make it very head shy, fair enough a slap on the neck or shoulder but i dont agree with ever slapping a horse of any size, age ect on the face its just wrong
 
Starzaan said:
I'm another one who is with the vet on this. I've done a lot of stud work - mainly on a large TB stud, and you just can't let foals, particularly colts, get away with anything.

We were often landed with yearlings who were completely out of hand and verging on being dangerous, because their owners had kept them at home with no company from horses of their own age, and been far too soft on them.

Horses bite and kick each other - watch his mother reprimand him, you'll wince when she grabs him by the withers, but that is how foals learn respect. It's a well known fact that hand reared foals generally end up being spoilt brats with serious attitude problems as they get older because they haven't had that discipline from their own kind.

I would say he DEFINITELY needs to go to stud to be turned away with some youngsters, and that a slap on the shnozz is no problem. Obviously you would never really wallop a horse, and I would never dream of smacking a horse about the head, but on the end of the nose, when I'm being bitten by a mouthy foal? I have no problem with that. His mother would do worse!
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Totally agree, a slap on the nose the minute he/she bites is going to make them think twice about biting but is unlikely to make them headshy, that is more likely to happen if they are slapped at the side of the head near their eye which is why they then duck when a hand comes near to do anything with a headcollar or their mane etc. Usually with a foal it only takes one good slap on the nose for them to learn that biting is not the thing to do and when accompanied by a sharp "no" or something similar the association is made and future bad behaviour can be "nipped in the bud". Foals are sponges as far as learning is concerned (both good and bad things) and some foals especially some colts would find being pushed away when they nip a bit of a game as in if "I nip her she'll play, I'll try it again". Nipping is usually the first game that foals start with, then its pushing at you with their chest and then its rearing and slapping at you with the front feet and so it goes on. Foals are wonderful to be around and they are no less so if they learn respect at the start but if they don't have any respect for you they can become dangerous to be around, whats cute at 3 or 4 weeks old is not funny at 6 or 7 months. Sorry this sounds a bit "know it all" and I'm not saying that op would let her lad get that far but one sharp slap ON THE NOSE is going to teach manners not make him head shy.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Well my 3rd baby was Satan's Child. It was payback for me thinking I was all that as baby teacher! LOL! She pushed the bounds at everything. And the cute face she had while trying to take you down was priceless. Anyway, let's just say she taught me more than I could have ever hope to learn.

Terri
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Interesting she was a filly too!
 
TBB said:
Totally agree, a slap on the nose the minute he/she bites is going to make them think twice about biting but is unlikely to make them headshy, that is more likely to happen if they are slapped at the side of the head near their eye which is why they then duck when a hand comes near to do anything with a headcollar or their mane etc. Usually with a foal it only takes one good slap on the nose for them to learn that biting is not the thing to do and when accompanied by a sharp "no" or something similar the association is made and future bad behaviour can be "nipped in the bud". Foals are sponges as far as learning is concerned (both good and bad things) and some foals especially some colts would find being pushed away when they nip a bit of a game as in if "I nip her she'll play, I'll try it again". Nipping is usually the first game that foals start with, then its pushing at you with their chest and then its rearing and slapping at you with the front feet and so it goes on. Foals are wonderful to be around and they are no less so if they learn respect at the start but if they don't have any respect for you they can become dangerous to be around, whats cute at 3 or 4 weeks old is not funny at 6 or 7 months. Sorry this sounds a bit "know it all" and I'm not saying that op would let her lad get that far but one sharp slap ON THE NOSE is going to teach manners not make him head shy.
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No, rest assured, nothing out of line, or anything that could be dangerous when he's older and bigger, will be tolerated. I just want to use the minimum reprimand that's effective. He's already been through the jumping on you stage. He would delight in running up behind you whilst you are bent over pooh picking, and jumping on your back! We managed to put a stop to that by shouting 'no!' and immediately turning and pushing into his space until he retreated out of it.
 
i wouldnt worry, horses(even colts) are hard creatures..they would recieve a much harder punishment of another horse if they pushed their luck with them, as long as it was just a little smack and not a full blown hit on the end of the nose just makes them realise oh god if i do that i get something back not just a push away to come back in again.

a horse unlike humans need to know that certain things they do will have a consequence like a smack as they dont understand words clearly, just like when a horse your riding plays up you will give it a little bit of a kick to get it to move nothing serious but enough it knows the difference between good and bad:)

its really nothing:)
 
You Wont Forget Me said:
I understand what the vets saying but slapping a foal on the nose is going to do nothing but make it very head shy, fair enough a slap on the neck or shoulder but i dont agree with ever slapping a horse of any size, age ect on the face its just wrong
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One well timed smack is highly unlikely to make an overly bold, bolshy colt headshy. It might, however, stop the behaviour instantly and prevent it becoming an issue...
 
Horses are not stupid. They know the difference between a one-off reprimand and a life of punishment and unfair treatment.

Headshy horses are made by habitual aggression on the part of the handler.
 
Mine tried biting once, he's a yearling. He got a smack across his nose and not a gentle one! He hasn't tried it since.
 
I have to say, I'm with the vet on this one too.
Timing is vital though, a short sharp reprimand at the time of said nip works. What doesn't work is a delayed reaction, or people waving their hands around their eyes for example. That would make it A) confused and B) headshy.

A slap on the shoulder or neck does nothing! You may as well be giving them a pat or swiping a fly off them.
As for pushing them away, they will come back to push you twice as hard thinking it is some sort of dominance game. They are quick at turning around and then you get their ass in your face if you are unlucky!! I have honestly found a short sharp smack on their nose (side of nose) makes them back up, look down their nose and think 'where did that come from?' And I don't think they connect the two bite-smack with a human hand.

^^ this is my opinion, but if what you and the owner are doing works then great, keep it up!
Good luck, I would let this incident go to experience though.
 
I m another of the 'smack it hard on the nose' brigade! Having bred foals for 20 yrs , naughty colt foals [ and not many are nippy from birth , just the occasional ones, and BTW are out of very submissive mares that dont discipline them and hence they learn its a game] that attempt this habit have to be stopped straight off. OP says he s getting better - yet he went to nip the vet . So he wasnt getting that much better.....
We once had a yearling to us to learn manners- he was attacking walkers on a public footpath.He was so bad he galloped straight at me in the field .I was prepared - a long leadrope became a 'helicopter' and he ran into it.I just stood there and twirled the line above my head any time he came near. This went on for 20 mins until he gave in and realised I was not going to let him attack me. He should have been taught manners a yr earlier!
 
amymay said:
This is an interesting one, because whilst I agree with you to a degree, a vet obviously has the right to expect to be able to treat any animal without getting hurt. So if they need to reprimand they will.

When it comes to foals then obviously manners are being learn't, and the situation is rather different. So unless you expect (and are happy) for your vet to carry on regardless of what antics are being performed by the foal - without reprimanding it or stepping in to assist, you as the owner must step in very quickly to do it yourself.

Vet's do have the skills for the job - and if they are not 'abusing' the animal - let them do their job, and insist on behaviour at the same time.
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I see where you are coming from with this BUT I would expect to be the one to reprimand, especially with a bite if I was holding the horse, I certainly would not expect a vet to smack a horse around the face. With my farrier it is a bit different (and even with a vet in the same situation) because I believe that reaction has to be instantaneous. If the farrier is working on the back end I cannot necessarily see what is going on from the head, I would not object to a poke in the ribs or a flat slap to let the horse know it's behaviour is not acceptable. I just cannot condone any horse being hit around the head, there may be one day when you NEED that horse to trust your hand rather than seeing it as a weapon, a slap on the chest has exactly the same 'shock' effect if it is needed.
 
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. We have a colt, when he tried to nip us he got a hard pinch on his neck and a firm NO! it didn't take him long to understand. I wouldn't smack a youngster on the head but his mother would nip him if doing wrong so you do the same.
 
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