Vet this afternoon- wind problems

scats

scats

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As some of you know, the Diva was diagnosed at the end of last year with what the vet thinks is PSSM. We have treated her as such and changed her diet and there definitely was a massive improvement in her muscles. However, one problem has remained and appears to be getting worse and that is her constant puffing and extremely heavy breathing once put into trot.
At the time, the vet said that he hoped the breathing was linked to her muscle issues, but that if this did not improve, we could investigate it further.

Her blowing and puffing, and extreme fatigue afterwards, has been so severe that we had limited ourselves to Intro tests and although we have always done very short bursts of canter in the school at home and out around the fields, the majority of her work has been at walk and trot and she sounds constantly like she's ran the national. She just cannot sustain more than a few strides of canter as her breathing just goes out of control and she gets extremely fatigued. Due to us just doing Intro tests, I hadn't really pushed the canter, but having decided to take the step up to prelim, it has become apparent that she cannot sustain canter for more than a long side of the school without sounding dreadfully blowy. This then makes the puffing in trot a whole lot worse. I can only get it back to normal once she has walked around for a while.

Yesterday, within 30 seconds of starting to trot, she was blowing and puffing. It happens that fast. We mostly did the session in trot, she managed one semi-ok canter for about half the school before she couldn't carry on. The whole session was 25 minutes long, mostly walk and trot and the noise from her was awful. She doesn't roar or whistle, just blows heavily like she has really exerted herself. Her heart rate and breathing seem to return to normal quite quickly afterwards, but in herself she looks half dead and very sweaty. It takes her a few hours to 'recover'. This pony has been in consistent work for nearly 3 years and she should be a hell of a lot fitter than she appears.

I cooled her off and then rang the vet straight away and they are booked to come out today to discuss what we do next, as there is something telling me that there is an underlying wind issue and I am going to ask for her to go in and have her airway scoped.

She never coughs and there is no sign of any breathing problems in the stable. I have heard her make the same blowing noise when cantering out in the field, however.

I'm not really sure why I'm posting this, other than to write it all down, but any experiences of similar would be helpful.
 
Just to add- I posted about this a couple of months ago and contacted the vet that week, who suggested that I continue with the diet and increase her workload slightly over the coming months, to see how we got on. The pony is a naturally very good doer and the vet was keen to try and get some weight off her as we moved into spring.
This is where we are up to basically, but the pony has made no improvement at all.
 
There's been a number of posts on the FB PSSM forum over the years about heavy breathing PSSM horses. Mine is type 1 and if her muscles are tight then her breathing suffers. She's got the wobbliest bottom muscles she's had in 2 years right now and her breathing is fine.

I did put it down to allergies last year and I still think there is a problem with something hayfever like, but the heavy breathing was there over winter when she was barely rideable due to PSSM, so I'm now assuming muscular.

I have found Dr Valberg (the PSSM expert) very approachable over email [address on-line] and she's given me pointers for discussion with the UK vets, so if you don't feel that you're making much progress with your own vet then might be worth dropping her a line.
 
SEL said:
There's been a number of posts on the FB PSSM forum over the years about heavy breathing PSSM horses. Mine is type 1 and if her muscles are tight then her breathing suffers. She's got the wobbliest bottom muscles she's had in 2 years right now and her breathing is fine.

I did put it down to allergies last year and I still think there is a problem with something hayfever like, but the heavy breathing was there over winter when she was barely rideable due to PSSM, so I'm now assuming muscular.

I have found Dr Valberg (the PSSM expert) very approachable over email [address on-line] and she's given me pointers for discussion with the UK vets, so if you don't feel that you're making much progress with your own vet then might be worth dropping her a line.
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Thank you, if I felt there was some improvement at times, I would probably think it was linked to her muscles, but there have been times her muscles have felt very loose and free but the blowing and panting has remained exactly the same.

I'm headed off to meet the vet at the yard in a minute.
 
Vet was with me well over an hour. The Diva presented with a high respiration rate and heart rate at rest and was very lethargic. She's always a bit out of sorts the day after a bad attack and yesterday was particularly bad. Anyway, obvious thing was to check for pain that could be causing this so first thought was lami. Did lots of checks, hoof testers, walking, trotting, tight circles, didn't appear to show any signs.
We took her in and blood tested her and then stuck her on the lunge for 15 minutes. Instantly she started puffing in trot and got progressively noisier. In the canter we actually got a whistle. After 10 minutes she was flagging and trying to stop, vet took over and kept her going for longer and then we stopped her and checked her rates again. Heart rate was very high for what she had done, respiration high but came down quickly, but then remained at too high a rate for a recovering horse. Blood tested again.
10 minutes later, respiration still too high and very noisy.
Vet says she looks and acts like a horse who has been pulled out of the field after 3 years and made to work. This horse has been in work now for 3 years, with no major time off. Her heart rate and respiration rate match an animal with a poor level of fitness, yet she should not be like this.

First off, we are going to assume she has EMS. I've always treated her as such with diet and grazing restrictions, but vet thinks we should start her on metformin.

Secondly, we will get the bloods back tomorrow and see if there were elevated readings after the exercise, to see if this could still be connected to PSSM/muscle problems.

Thirdly, we will be sending her in to Leahurst (our local, we are 15 mins away) for an overground endoscope.

She's now on light duties- I've been told to keep her hacking and doing some trot work, hoping to get her in next week.

I feel absolutely sick, if I'm honest.
 
Just to say I have had a similar issue with my horses breathing...maybe not quite as quickly as yours but definitely more puffed than he should be for level of activity. Tested for PSSM but negative... Tested positive for EMS last week and vet wants to try Metformin. Unfortunately he had to have an operation last week for an unrelated issue and is now recovering on box rest so yet to start the Metformin and check for improvement... Keep us updated on yours...my vet says EMS is manageable and not the end of the world.
 
Feeling a bit dejected this morning. Actually, that's an understatement.

Vet left a message last night to say that he's spoken to the hospital vet and that's absolutely fine for her to come in for an endoscopy, but they doubt they will find anything. It was mentioned on him leaving the other day, despite everything, that she may just be fat and unfit so it's likely that's the view the hospital vet has taken as well. Unfortunately my phone didn't ring out so I only got the message and couldn't speak to the vet as it was out of hours by the time they called and they didn't leave a direct number.

I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall.

This pony has been in consistent work since July 2014, ridden 6 days a week, competes every other weekend in summer and farm rides the weekends in between, doing between 4-6 miles in all paces and jumping, worked consistently all winter with a mix of schooling and hacking... she is worked properly- my horses don't just trundle about, and I have produced horses over 25 years for a variety of disciplines... but the point I am trying to get through to them is that she shouldn't be making these noises and appear this unfit after 3 years. This is my issue, that I can't seem to get this horse fit. Instantly in trot her heavy breathing starts and she fatigues very quickly. I push her through it, but it doesn't let up, so by the end of every session I have an absolutely exhausted pony. I do often have to give her short walk breaks to get her breath back to normal, but on progressing into trot again, the blowing starts. That aside, she is still ridden for 45minutes to an hour.

The bloods came back clear, even the post-exercise ones, but the vet did say that due to how puffed the pony was, we only lunged her for 15 minutes and for a true reading we would have had to keep her going for half an hour, but they think the breathing may not be linked to muscle involvement now.

At the end of last year, I got a vet out (different one, same practice) about this issue, and they couldn't see beyond her weight and said she was probably just fat and unfit. This vet didn't watch her work, so didn't witness the noises or fatigue.I completely agreed that she was fat, but again explained the problem. Some bloods were taken and I said that I would work hard over the winter to get her weight down and see if any difference was made to her breathing and performance, as I was getting no where with this vet understanding my problem.

So over winter she lost the small amount ofusual weight she does, not a huge amount at all but winter is always the slimmest I can get her, and yet the noisy breathing and fatigue remained. I plugged away for 6 months, increasing her workload and trying to push her through it, and there was absolutely no change. Hence why I decided to follow this back up again.

She is slightly overweight (chunky cob, lives off fresh air) and diet wise I have always treated her like she has EMS. She is on my baldest field overnight and comes in first thing in the morning until at least 7pm. Her day hay is soaked, but she barely touches hay in the day as she is the least greedy pony you'll ever meet.

The vet mentioned starting her on metformin, which I am going to chase up next week.

For my own peace of mind, I feel that I need to check her airways, just in case, but on that phone call last night, I feel like a time waster.

I asked the other day whether a side effect of EMS could be an intolerance to work and severe blowing at work, consistent all year round, but didn't really get an answer.

I took pony for a hack last night and the blowing started the second we went into trot and once we were walking again it took her 5-10 minutes to stop stop making the noise.

Sorry for the essay, but I don't feel like I'm being listened to.
 
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Your horse needs scoping.
You are the owner and if you want it done it should be .
I would ring them on Monday and ask the vet to arrange it .
A scope she wears while she works would be the best option .
It's very hard when you feel you are not being taken seriously but keep plugging on .
And if her wind is ok and all you have is a fat lazy cob at least you will know you're not being unfair .
 
Goldenstar said:
Your horse needs scoping.
You are the owner and if you want it done it should be .
I would ring them on Monday and ask the vet to arrange it .
A scope she wears while she works would be the best option .
It's very hard when you feel you are not being taken seriously but keep plugging on .
And if her wind is ok and all you have is a fat lazy cob at least you will know you're not being unfair .
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Thanks Goldenstar. Yes she will be having an overground endoscope and I will be riding her to try and replicate what we do at home. I'm going to ring on Monday and book her in as soon as possible.

I have emailed the vet writing everything down- her workload and management, which can then be passed on to the hospital vet. I started doubting myself last night and wondering if I didn't explain the situation correctly. I hope to goodness that the scope doesn't find anything, but at least I will know then and I can stop having that nagging doubt in my mind everytime she starts making the noise.
 
scats said:
Thanks Goldenstar. Yes she will be having an overground endoscope and I will be riding her to try and replicate what we do at home. I'm going to ring on Monday and book her in as soon as possible.

I have emailed the vet writing everything down- her workload and management, which can then be passed on to the hospital vet. I started doubting myself last night and wondering if I didn't explain the situation correctly. I hope to goodness that the scope doesn't find anything, but at least I will know then and I can stop having that nagging doubt in my mind everytime she starts making the noise.
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Good , I hope it all goes well and will be very interested to hear what they find .
 
As the owner you will always know your horse best. Vets are good but they are not perfect.....sometimes they just can't / won't see what is there! A bit like drs really...will be interested to see what they find. Good luck x
 
Possibly the vet is seeing what it there too..It's worht scoping definitely, but if she is an overweight horse and vet iscommenting on her weight I'd be reducing the food more!
 
SusieT said:
Possibly the vet is seeing what it there too..It's worht scoping definitely, but if she is an overweight horse and vet iscommenting on her weight I'd be reducing the food more!
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Apart from grazing on a bald field overnight, she is on a cup of lo cal Balancer. She has a handful of soaked hay in the day but doesn't eat it, she's very fussy and not at all food oriented.

This was her this evening before she went out-
IMG_0199.jpg


Picture shows her finally having a nibble on her hay, at 7.30pm. She spends most of the day snoozing.
 
Your pony should not behaving breathing issues with the workload she is doing unless there is a serious underlying issue. An overground scope will tell you enough to go on. It will tell you if the palate is displacing, if the vocal chords are collapsing or are paralised or if there is a blockage of any kind. Riding with an overground scope on is weird. You feel as though you can't ride as you are trying to keep the kit safe and not bang it about!

Good Luck with her!

How does she neigh by the way? Does she sound normal?
 
EKW said:
Your pony should not behaving breathing issues with the workload she is doing unless there is a serious underlying issue. An overground scope will tell you enough to go on. It will tell you if the palate is displacing, if the vocal chords are collapsing or are paralised or if there is a blockage of any kind. Riding with an overground scope on is weird. You feel as though you can't ride as you are trying to keep the kit safe and not bang it about!

Good Luck with her!

How does she neigh by the way? Does she sound normal?
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Thank you. She has a funny little whinny- very distinctive and more breathy than noise (if that makes sense). Whereas my other horse does a distinct neigh, hers is a like a little 'chuff, chuff'. I've never really thought much about that, or indeed been asked about it by the vet.

I'm strangely curious about the overground scope, does the horse find it uncomfortable to have in while working? It looks horrid!
 
fabbydo said:
Sorry to repeat if you have already done this but has she had a full allergy test?
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No she hasn't. This hasn't even been mentioned to me. When I asked if it could be a form of COPD I was told highly unlikely as she doesn't cough. It was never mentioned again. The only test they have wanted to do, aside from standard bloods, is an EMS test.
 
My cob was perfectly healthy for 10 years. She was fit and competing. She suddenly started breathing very much how you describe. She did not cough. Basically, she developed allergies to various things (3 page print out but mainly pollens) and exercise was causing her to have asthma attacks. It's worth investigating.
 
I know of an excellent vet who specialises in performance issues.....I can pm you details if you'd like? Not too far from you
 
fabbydo said:
My cob was perfectly healthy for 10 years. She was fit and competing. She suddenly started breathing very much how you describe. She did not cough. Basically, she developed allergies to various things (3 page print out but mainly pollens) and exercise was causing her to have asthma attacks. It's worth investigating.
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Did you manage to get your cobs breathing under control? I'm tempted to get hold of a go pro and see if I can film the noise when I take her for a short trot or canter around the fields and post it on here to see what people think. It is very, very loud.
 
scats said:
Thank you. She has a funny little whinny- very distinctive and more breathy than noise (if that makes sense). Whereas my other horse does a distinct neigh, hers is a like a little 'chuff, chuff'. I've never really thought much about that, or indeed been asked about it by the vet.

I'm strangely curious about the overground scope, does the horse find it uncomfortable to have in while working? It looks horrid!
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Once in they get used to the scope pretty quickly. The hardest part is getting it in. Vets generally nose twitch for this part.

If your mare more wheezes than neighs then I suspect there is a problem with the vocal chords which will severely limit how much air she can get into her. Same as a human that can't breath. No oxygen going in, your lungs can't function, your brain can't function, you feel as though you are suffocating. A human can stop when they please, they can tell those around them what is going on. A horse can't. They are too genuine and try to struggle on until us thicko humans realise there's actually an issue and not just a fat lazy horse. This will not be helping the PSSM. No oxygen going round the blood no lactic acid being moved. Lactic acid build up results in tying up.
 
Unfortunately not. We had to retire her last year as nothing keeps it under control. We thought we had cracked it with a vaccine made specifically for her but 2 weeks ago her breathing problems started again.
I would worry about riding something with a breathing problem. I know your vet told you to but it must be very uncomfortable for your mare. That's not a poke at you, without a clear support from your vet you sound a little lost. Hope you get it sorted. If it helps, Hattie Lawrence is my vet. Not in your area but she is a star.
 
Fabbyo- I was booked in to do dressage this weekend but I've withdrawn. I asked the vet if I should stop riding her until we know what's going on and he said no because she's fat, but I have opted to put her in much reduced work until I know what is going on. She is doing 20 minute hacks around our farm, with some very short bursts of trot and canter but mostly walk. I'm hoping to get her in this week for her scope.

Thanks for the support everybody. I realise the vets are trying to raise awareness of things like EMS and obesity in horses, and I categorically agree that the pony needs to lose some weight, but that is so hard to do when I cannot work her properly without her being in obvious distress.
 
Good luck. Hope everything goes well for you. I know it's stressful but you have sort veterinary advice so have done the right thing.
 
Looking at the picture she looks well (lovely shine to her coat too!) But appears to be quite cresty? (Hard to tell with the angle of the photo/how she's twisting her neck for the hay) so I'd be looking at ems / cushings too possibly. I have a fat cob who puffs and doesn't seem to vet fitter too but most definitley not to the extent yours sounds like. I would push for the scope as it definitley isn't normal. Hope you get on ok when you call back on Monday.
 
Bit of an update. I emailed the vet over the weekend, outlining everything- what she does work wise, what i feed her and how she is managed.

Just had a chat on the phone with him. He showed the hospital vet the video of her working, but it didn't pick up the noise very well so I imagine she did just look like a fat thing trotting around blowing a bit. Anyway, he does understand my concerns so the referral is going through and I should get a date in the next few days (hopefully for next week at very latest) for her to go in and have the scope. If it shows nothing, she will also have a tracheal wash.

He's still keen for her to stay in the same level of work until she comes in. I'm having such a hard time getting to grips with that, as I feel absolutely dreadful when she starts making the noise, but I feel I need to do what they are telling me at this stage. I am still going to keep her out of the school however, but I will make her do a bit of trot and canter work out hacking.

Collecting her metformin this afternoon also.

Thanks for the support everyone. I'm in this weird place where I don't want to find anything on the scope, but part of me thinks, if we don't, what the hell is wrong with her?
 
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