Vet vs farrier

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Evie91

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Background story; horse 23, retired, arthritic hocks, tb

Farrier; highly respected, remedial farrier. Has been working towards horse going barefoot for months. Had back shoes off around summer last year, working up to having fronts off. Front hoofs terrible, just getting in good shape when horse ripped shoe off, twisted it and pulled off half her hoof wall. Left very little to nail it on to. Box rest for one week after if was put back on as so foot sore, two weeks later lost it again. Then lost the other front shoe.
Farrier decides barefoot best as no hoof wall to nail shoe to. Ordered boots. shoes were taken off week last Friday.
Horse out at night in boots, in during day on rubber mats and shavings.
Spoke to farrier Friday as horse v v foot sore ( this horse loses a shoe and if you didn't know her you would think she'd broken a leg the way she lurches about).He gave advice and stated to be expected, early days etc.

Called vet today as horse sore, miserable, looks lamintic as leans back to rest front feet. vet shocked at state of horse and insists on calling farrier.
After some discussion vet and farrier agree; horse will have one week of bute if she does not improve shoes will be go back on.
Vet convinced, no way on the earth horse will be any better and will def need shoes, terrible tb feet, walking on soles etc.

Farrier feels horse will be much better in a weeks time, soles will start to harden off and should be fine to continue without (although concedes if horse is worse shoes will go back on).
Both professionals, highly respected.
Just wondered if anyone has any similar experiences and who won out? As owner of the much loved horse, I feel very miserable that she is in such pain and discomfort and don't really know what to do for the best, especially with conflicting advice!

Sorry so long, thanks for reading.
 
I would stick with hoof boots, has this not been mentioned, they can have pads as well inside them.
What about diet...... minerals [hoof pro from pro earth] and linseed?
Diet should improve things, no sugars and patience.
A year to get the shoes off seems a long time.
Shoes are not working., and I think you really want to see what is happening.[general hugs]
 
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Thanks for the hugs - much needed!
She has cavello boots with pads and Pastern wraps but to see her lurching round the field is painful! I wouldn't be suprised if someone called the RSPCA - her face is awful you can see her grimace when I lead her in (down a gravel path), she's lost weight and looks tucked up - I'm assuming due to pain.
Vet said if I hadn't told him about shoes off - he would have said severe laminitis with pedal bones dropping through hoof. :(
Reason we took so long to take off fronts is that I couldn't quite bring myself to do it - as I knew she would react badly at first, so wasn't brave enough. After losing the shoes farrier decided now is the time to do it.
Thanks for your reply. Feeding supplements, painting hooves, spraying soles so trying hard - just so difficult to see her in pain and know it was my doing!
 
Have you seen or heard of this?
http://www.equitech.uk.com/acatalog/Hoof_Cast.html
Have used it with great success on one similar situation to yours. The farrier can still nail a shoe onto it too, but it goes in the cast and not the foot,if you do need a shoe.
It goes hard, like a human cast when you break a bone.
It's not cheap, btw, but I found it excellent and horses wall recovers over 12/18 MK the enough to nail a shoe on, though not to go barefoot.
 
Spottyappy said:
Have you seen or heard of this?
http://www.equitech.uk.com/acatalog/Hoof_Cast.html
Have used it with great success on one similar situation to yours. The farrier can still nail a shoe onto it too, but it goes in the cast and not the foot,if you do need a shoe.
It goes hard, like a human cast when you break a bone.
It's not cheap, btw, but I found it excellent and horses wall recovers over 12/18 MK the enough to nail a shoe on, though not to go barefoot.
Click to expand...

my mare had this on one of her feet last summer and ideally I wanted her to have it again this year after some hoof related issues, it was truly amazing stuff but my current farrier had other ideas
 
My 20yr old TB had feet that wouldn't hold a shoe, I padded his boots with cut outs from an old sheepskin numnah, he initially on hard surfaces and would plant, I had to insist I wasn't trying to cripple him, 10 months on, he's sound on all surfaces unbooted, except for large gravel, I did wonder if I was doing right by my lad, it was only reading the success stories that kept me going and I'm so glad I did
 
I would keep her in and on a laminitic diet and deep shavings/bed covering the whole box floor. She sounds in too much pain to be turned out. I'm not used to seeing horses that have lost shoes but with this amount of pain, even in boots ad pads, there must be something else going on and laminitis is something to treat for as it wont do any harm. Sounds like her soles may be very thin.
Might be worth looking at Cushings testing. Ring the vet and tell him what the farrier said and perhaps get vet to recommend another farrier. 4 days + is a long time in that much pain. x
 
The vet rang the farrier - they were on the phone for twenty mins and agreed a plan of action.
Vet wants horse out overnight as arthritic and spending too much time in makes her v stiff, also eating grass is her favourite pass time. She's actually more miserable in - think she has no distraction from the pain, but the grass and outdoors provide her with some distraction. Farrier agrees with this.
She is on exactly the bed you describe - very deep, all over the stable.
 
Did the vet rule out laminitis 100%? I certainly agree out is usually better than in but if grass is contributing to her problems then it may not be best. So vet has agreed to leave her without shoes? The wraps may be a good move as the boots and pads aren't helping much by the sound of it.

Whatever, the horse can't be left like that for much longer while they "fight it out" unless she isn't as bad as I am imagining from your description.
 
No it is as bad as you imagine. Vet and farrier agreed a week on bute - one and a half sachets morning and evening. if no improvement after a week, to arrange with farrier shoes back on. Vet convinced horse will need shoes. Farrier thinks she won't.
Vet came out today and I'm following his and farrier advise to the letter.
 
No way would I have put shoes on this horse with feet like that. Boots all the way, and bute if necessary in the early days and have the darned shoes off for good. I own a lot of TBs and all of them are unshod and have the most fabulous feet now. Most were previously shod before I bought them and I can't say they had very nice feet then, but they do now!
 
I'll try and take some photos tomorrow - think you will be shocked - they are terrible feet, poor horse.
Will just depend if I can get her to hold up long enough to take a pic, she's struggling when I put the boots on, to balance on three legs as her front feet hurt so much - hope the bute will make a big difference.
 
I remember watching one of Pete Ramey's 'That's my horse' DVD's. Thin soled TB with sub solar abscessing in one front hoof, he used wraps to great effect for pain relief while sole healed and built. Barefoot imo is always the way to heal hooves but if pain is severe ( and in both front hooves) and long lasting, ways to give relief have to be found

I thought she'd been on bute already, fingers crossed it helps.
 
Don't take the photos if it will hurt her too much.

Do you have a sand school available? If you do see how she is in there (with her boots and pads on, it doesn't sound like she's ready for naked hooves at all yet) as I have found that sand is a very kind surface.
 
I guess you're sort of at a cross roads here. Neither option is going to be a particularly easy one.

You could give shoeing another shot and look into glue-on shoes and the like, use over-reach boots and pray that she stops pulling shoes off.

You could persist with barefoot and hope she improves (although given all the variables she's unlikely to be 100% on tougher surfaces for a good while, if ever given that she's retired and so doing a lot less movement and stimulating her feet a lot less than a horse in work). If you do go down this road have you got an arena or somewhere with a good, soft surface that you can do a bit of inhand work or turn her out in without the boots so she's at least getting some time off to move around without them?

Either way if her feet are in a constant state of falling to bits then you probably need to be looking at her diet, make sure it's as low sugar and high fibre as you can make it and give her a good hoof targeted balancer. I'd also suggest getting your vet to investigate if there is any concern about laminitis.

Also from your description she's removed 2 shoes from one foot and one shoe from another in the space of a few weeks so is likely to have taken some nice chunks out and caused some bruising so guess you're starting off a bit on the back foot really which probably won't help.

I'd say read up on and research both your options very carefully from several sources before you make your decision and be honest with yourself about what you have the time and the facilities to do.

PS I'm fairly new to having even a passing interest in any of this so I'm sure better and more informed and useful answers will be provided by others.
 
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I've got a TB who for years had terrible feet and looked crippled if she ever had a shoe come off. I had tried a couple of times to let her feet grow back when she'd ripped both front feet to pieces pulling shoes off but always resorted to shoes back on after a couple of weeks.
Two years ago she got a very bad cut on her leg which made it too painful to shoe her so I decided to try shoes off again. This time I put her on a completely sugar free/molasses free diet and she was turned out on longish grass/softer ground for a good six weeks and it is honestly the best thing I ever did. Within six weeks her feet improved beyond belief and over the last two years her feet have been amazing and she's very comfortable without shoes even on very stony ground. I wish I'd done it years ago but with the correct diet to support the change. I'm still amazed at how good her feet are.
 
What pads are you using? If its the cavello ones then try using the green easy boot foam pads instead. Alot more supportive and comfy for the horse, the come in 12mm or 6mm. I get them from the saddlery shop.

my appy when he ripping his shoe off with half his hoof was very sore for about three weeks even.with boots and pads. He abcessed as well so keep an eye for them. It took about a month for him to some sound as he was just walking on his sole where he had ripped off his hoof wall.
 
Boots and pads would by my way too. However I wondered if you are sure she hasn't stood on one of the nails in the process of pulling her shoes off and/or got an abscess brewing
 
Barefoot is the ideal option so i would be inclined to still try to work towards that. Some farriers can used like a black rubber thingy to help hooves heal and fill them in a bit if they are in bad shape, it takes the pressure off the sole. If there is more going on like lami or navicular (quite common in thoroughbreds) then you need to know, but the bute will mask pain and you will think shes getting better until she comes off it. I'm currently testing danilon for potential navicular and he has lami which is under strict control.
 
I had a very nerve racking time when i took my horses shoes off, he had only had them on for 12 month, he was awful. I spoke with a friend and we decided that if i got totally desperate, I still had the shoes and the boots, I was going to put the shoes on his feet and keep them in place with the boots, wonder if duct tape would do it if you put enough on - in the stable at least. It was the bute that helped my horse tremendously. I wouldn't turnout if it was me. (And i know your vet said too.) unless she has improved dramatically with the bute - she sounds in way to much pain - wonder if you might actually be causing brusing/ risking traumatic laminitis by taking her to the field. Either that or leave out all the time - but my horse was too bad to even get out - he just lay down in the stable. The other thing that occurs to me is - is the sugar in the grass making her foot sore? Good luck and hugs - its an awful situation to be in I know from bitter experience.
 
Thank you all those who took the time to respond. Horse 80% better today- bute obviously good stuff. She walked around paddock last night (poop was dotted about), had a roll and walked in much easier - slight grimace and definate lameness on one front but so much better. Was able to get a good look ( but forgot to take pics) of worst foot - on outside, half hoof wall gone, so just on sole, so not surprising she is so sore.
In the stable are all breakfast and got very excited for her tea tonight, keen to go out and almost dragged me to paddock. Took her first and went back for pony - when I got back she'd voluntarily walked over stony hard standing so she could have a better view of pony coming, think she realised her mistake as she stumbled a bit as she walked back to paddock. She seems much happier in herself which was the main thing for today. Just need to see what happens in a weeks time!
Going to read through all posts now and see what has been suggested, thanks again
 
I'm so glad that she's doing better. :)

The walking on the sole thing has been mentioned a couple of times on here. I just wanted to say that all of my lot (unshod/BF) partially weight bare on the sole - specifically at the toe area - and the weight is shared between the frog, hoof wall and the toe callus.

I don't want to overwhelm you with photos, but this one might be of interest as there is quite a bit of hoof wall missing (it was taken early on in her BF rehab) and the horse was sound.

100_2174.jpg
 
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