Veteran worries

[rforsyth1984]

Hello

My 19 year old arab has started to show some signs of getting older and I'm a bit worried. He is a bit complex so I have encountered a lot of conflicting advice. The vet is coming next week and it is their advice I shall be following, but I thought it would be helpful if I had some possible ideas I could run by them in terms of supplements/ feed I might use, and maybe you folks have some wisdom and experience that could be helpful?

He has had a few cases of laminitis, including one in 2010 that he nearly didn't survive. I am going to have him tested for cushings, though he has no other signs.

Through winter he lost a bit of weight (shadow of ribs is visiable, hindquarters are a bit dipped etc). Spring has not resulted in weight gain because he is muzzled to reduce grass intake (due to lammy)

He is currently fed happy hoof and speedi beet twice a day, plus ad-lib haylage over night. No problems eating, teeth checked 5 months ago (no major probs)

He is on light hacking (40 minutes, 3-4 times a week). Odd little jump or bit of schooling. Has lost some of his fizz recently, doesnt want to bomb off on the gallops any more. He had most of last year off because I was in hospital so hasnt been properly fit for a couple of years.

He was diagnosed 4 years ago with mild arthritis in his hock. I think this has got a little worse, and may be affecting the other hock as well now. Not visibly 'lame', but does catch his toes in walk slightly.

He has always been known to trip/stumble at times (low daisy cutter action and tendancy to be easily distracted) but I think he is doing it more now - could be due to worsening arthritis or lack of energy?

My initial thoughts are to put him on a veteran feed (D&H 16+ cubes), but I'm worried about lammy. Same thought for joint supps (took him off cortaflex HA after last case of lammy - the filler is sugar based apparently?)

A veteran supplement might help with general health, but not weight gain? This combined with something like high fibre cubes maybe?

Final thought is on retirement - often retirement seems to be the beginning of the end for many horses, but if he is in pain or struggling?

Sometimes I think I'm over exagerating/worrying, other times I'm terrified I'm making him suffer.

Any thoughts?

 

[oldie48]

Hi, he sounds very much like my 25yr old TB except, touch wood, he's not had laminitis. He's on D&H 16+, bluechip dynamic and Hi Fi and I add veg oil bought from the supermarket. he does have cushings and I think yours might too from his description. Not sure if my feed is suitable for a horse prone to lami, but the oil would be useful to add safe calories. I had his hocks injected before the winter and it helped him enormously He's also having back shoes off as he's become a bit uncomfortable being shod behind. Vet and farrier both advise keeping him in light work rather than retire as it's felt exercise helps to alleviate stiffness and he still enjoys being out. have you thought of approaching one of the feed companies for their advice about feeding, although they are biased towards their own products (naturally) they are very knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[Joanne4584]

I'm kind of in a similar situation with Bertie. He is 18 and was diagnosed with kissing spine and bone spavin in January. He's had injections and is currently sound and being ridden a couple of times a week (light hacking).

He had laminitis for the first time 2 weeks ago. You can see his ribs a bit, and has lost muscle along his back and hind quarters, which we put down to lack of work over the past 6 months, but he is getting tested for cushings tomorrow, but by vet doesn't think he has it.

I have fed him D&H 16+ since October, and Cortaflex. His coat is much shinier and when I ride him he feels much more lively. I now am not sure if I should feed that 16+ cause of the lami.... but it does say it's suitable for cushingoids so I'm all confused. My vet says everything I'm feeding him is fine.

I know how you feel... I think I'm doing my vets head in with all the questions and worries. But, that's what they're there for. PM me if you ever want to chat.

I think you will have to have an honest chat with your vet about retirement. You know your horse best though and I think you'll have a gut feeling when the time is right. xx

 

[Beau jangles]

My boy is borderline cushings and laminitis can go hand in hand with that , I've not got him on meds yet His levels don't require it yet . I have however changed his diet to prevent laminitis , he is in top spec fibre plus has same nutrition as the pasture mix he was on without the sugars or starch , dengie hi-fi un molassed , speedi beet in winter and top spec cool comprehensive . He is an Arab also and is a bit leaner than he would normally be at this time of year he never has been a fattie in his life , vet is happy with how he looks nd has asked me to keep him lean as its much better or them if they have cushings , laminitis or arthritis , I would phone up top spec or a similar feed company and ask for advise they are trained nutritionists and I found them really helpful .
Good luck and if you trust your vet go with it , it really is just trial an error !
With regards to laminitis can you bring him in during the day and put him out at night without the muzzle as at night the grass doesn't have as much sugar in it and he can munch happily at that ?

 

[whisp&willow]

Fast fibre and veteran vitality with speedi beet.

safe for lami, as molasses free and low starch.

My very very old oldie with no teeth picked up amazingly well on it and is now on a diet!

 

[clip_clop]

My cob has cushings and has had laminitis in the past, he's lost weight so now he has baileys alfalfa plus oil, baileys outshine, d&h 16+ cubes and speedi beet. This is on advice of vet and also from speaking to feed company nutritionists, he looks much better now

 

[Joanne4584]

I bought some HiFi Lite so Bertie is now on that with Speedi Beet and the D&H 16+. I've looked at the amount it says to feed on the bag and I must be working it out wrong because it seems an awful lot! 1.5kg a day (Speedi Beet and Hi Fi Lite). I feed no where near that and Bertie seems ok

 

[oldie48]

I bought some HiFi Lite so Bertie is now on that with Speedi Beet and the D&H 16+. I've looked at the amount it says to feed on the bag and I must be working it out wrong because it seems an awful lot! 1.5kg a day (Speedi Beet and Hi Fi Lite). I feed no where near that and Bertie seems ok

I never feed anthing like the recommended amount but I do use a supplement to ensure they are getting the proper amount of minerals vitamins etc. I emailed Allen and Page yesterday after reading this thread to ask their advice, just wondering if Veteran vitality might be a better option than D&H 16+.

 

[whisp&willow]

I never feed anthing like the recommended amount but I do use a supplement to ensure they are getting the proper amount of minerals vitamins etc. I emailed Allen and Page yesterday after reading this thread to ask their advice, just wondering if Veteran vitality might be a better option than D&H 16+.

D&H 16 + did nothing for mine. Allen and page are extremely helpful and sent me samples when I was looking for something for Tego.

Good luck with your oldie, mine is now on a diet as she is doing so well on fast fibre and veteran vitality!

And she just came into season: she is clearly an extremely re-vitalised veteran now!

x

 

[rforsyth1984]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. Its reassuring too know other people are in similar difficult situations as I sometimes feel like the worst owner on the yard because my horse doesn't look his best at the moment. Got the vet coming out on Thursday so will raise all of the issues with them and will get him on to a suitable supplement and feed regime. Fingers crossed!

 

[poiuytrewq]

Oh I so feel for you, years back I put my healthy fit oldie on loan to an amazing family as I found myself young, pregnant and out of work. They loved him and were amazing but a few years later when my situation had improved I had him back and it was such a massive shock. It felt like I'd stayed the same but he'd changed so much. (He was far older than yours)
I did feed 16+ but didn't have the lami issues and know little about it so can't really comment.
I used Aviform suppleaze gold which I'd recommend and started light work again to keep him active so I'd be inclined not to retire, my horse picked up well. Did you know Dengie healthy hoof is now in a molasses free version? Might be of interest?
Best of luck with him x

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think your doing the right thing gettin him tested for cushings, I would just increase the fibre, unmollassed sugar beet is great for weight gain and fairly cheap and good for laminitics, or you could try adding some micronised linseed.

 

[Pasha]

My Arab has just turned 17 but he tested positive for Cushings and Hepatitis after losing weight and looking poor last Autumn. He had Lami once when I first got him in 2009.

I now feed him Thunderbrook Pure Essential Base Mix (Micronised Linseed, Rice Bran, Yea Sacc, Bio Mos, Vits and mins) + Speedi Beet + Dengie Alfa A Mollasses Free (I used to feed it before when I had him and my old boy Pasha but stupidly stopped it and switched to Equimins Meta Balance - he never did as well on that).

I also feed him free choice herbs (including seaweed for extra vits and mins) depending on his needs and allow him free access to a Redmond Rock and Himalayan Salt Stone. I am also feeding him a very small amount of cold pressed Linseed Oil as although he does get micronised linseed in the Base Mix, he chose to take more when he did his Zoopharmacognosy session.

I have tried commercial balancers and feeds with him and he did improve for 2 weeks (D&H Ultimate Balancer was good) but his crest would then flare up so i'd have to stop it

 

[Nudibranch]

I believe D&H 16+ is pretty sugary, I stopped using it on my old Cushings mare. I'd be interested to hear what the vet says as I am having mine out to do the old girl's teeth and I suspect she has some mild hock arthritis.

Light exercise, keeping them warm in winter (not over rugged though!) with as much turnout as possible and a good balancer will all help veterans.

 

[MagicMelon]

Similar-ish situation I'm in with my 26 yr old very first pony (had him since he was 5!). He has cushings so is on daily medication for that. We've managed to keep lami at bay for years (touch wood) and know what routine works for him and what we can get away with grazing-wise. He's out 24/7 in a small paddock at this time of year with as much hay as he wants. He gets Happy Hoof, speedi-beet and a high spec vit & min supplement normally. Sadly he has started to struggle weight-wise through the winter. He's come out of this winter very skinny (even though rugged and fed well etc.), and I haven't managed to get him gain it back. Its so difficult to put weight on a lami, old horse safely I've started giving mine Alfa A Oil as well which I know its ideal for lami's but he's ok on it so far (he doesn't get much). I'm going to try adding oil to his feed as well, which might be handy for yours as oil is good for helping condition and for joints. Otherwise, I dont know how else to put weight on him and if he doesn't over the summer, I dont see how he'll make it through this winter

 

[oldie48]

Similar-ish situation I'm in with my 26 yr old very first pony (had him since he was 5!). He has cushings so is on daily medication for that. We've managed to keep lami at bay for years (touch wood) and know what routine works for him and what we can get away with grazing-wise. He's out 24/7 in a small paddock at this time of year with as much hay as he wants. He gets Happy Hoof, speedi-beet and a high spec vit & min supplement normally. Sadly he has started to struggle weight-wise through the winter. He's come out of this winter very skinny (even though rugged and fed well etc.), and I haven't managed to get him gain it back. Its so difficult to put weight on a lami, old horse safely I've started giving mine Alfa A Oil as well which I know its ideal for lami's but he's ok on it so far (he doesn't get much). I'm going to try adding oil to his feed as well, which might be handy for yours as oil is good for helping condition and for joints. Otherwise, I dont know how else to put weight on him and if he doesn't over the summer, I dont see how he'll make it through this winter

I've just had a very helpful response from the nutritionist at Allen and Page so it might be worth you getting in touch with some of the big feed companies to ask their advice. This one recommends linseed oil rather than soya or corn as it is easier for them to digest etc.

 

[Pasha]

Linseed Oil is preferable to other oils as it has a high Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio so balances out grass/hay and is anti-inflammatory

Micronised or cold pressed Linseed is best. Do not feed Linseed Lozenges which is what's left after the oil has been extracted and has mollasses added to make them into lozenges! Yuck!

 

[LegOn]

I've used Alfa-A Oil & Top spec Senior Balancer on my veteran to great success & he came out of the winter looking poor but 4 weeks on them & he was shining out of his skin!!

You might want to ask your farrier about rolling his toes to help with the stumbling - great for helping with movement & I think the oldies appreciate all the help they can get!!

 

[Garnet]

You might want to ask your farrier about rolling his toes to help with the stumbling - great for helping with movement & I think the oldies appreciate all the help they can get!!

I second this advice to ask your farrier to give him some help with his feet. Are the frogs touching the ground and is the back part of the hoof working properly? If the horses feet are in the best shape possible then that helps with the arthritis, the laminitis and the stumbling. When I started to investigate hoof function, it all made perfect sense to me that the horse's skeleton can work best when it is supported by the feet in the correct alignment.
Good luck - your boy is lucky to have you caring enough to worry about him and I worried incessantly about my veteran!

 

[rforsyth1984]

Thank you everyone for all of your replies. The vet has just been, taken blood for ACTH test (which I got for free, thanks Laminitis UK!).

In terms of feed advice, he was reluctant to reccommend anything - said I should contact one of the feed companies, which I will do. He said weight wise he is fine, but understood my concern that I wouldnt want him to lose any more weight.

Work load - keep him in work, doing whatever he feels happy to do. A bit vague but I suppose its the best advice - I just worry that I wont recognise signs that he needs to do less or I will over-interpret little things and worry constantly that he is doing too much!

Arthritis - get him back on the joint supplement (I used cortavet HA in the past so will probably go back to that), and I could give him a bute every day or every other day. I'm going to try with the bute, starting with every other day.

I'm going to go do some research on the products reccommended on this thread, and go from there. I might ring a couple of feed companies, in case I'm limited by what my local feed merchants stock!

Thanks again for all of your advice and kind words!

 

[ozpoz]

I found Thunderbrook to be very helpful and I'm really happy with their base mix. I add a little bran to each damped feed, which is supposed to help absorb toxins, and keep everything moving.

 

[Dora5]

Hi,
I would prob stop feeding the haylage and feed hay instead as the sugar content is much lower in hay. Also speedi beet though its low starch its still prob a bit high if he is prone to lammi. Basemix by thunderbrook is very good, its basically organic and doesn't contain any byproducts which will be best for his feet and it contains a balance of probiotics etc, I bought a bag which was £37 and feeding twice a day and the bag has lasted 2 1/2 months so far! I prob would avoid the senior mix's as they are high in starch and sugar. With mine, if the grass is fairly minimal then put some hay out to bulk out the fibre intake and maybe only turn out over night when the grass isn't so rich. Its very difficult isn't it but I've found the basemix has been brilliant for closing the white line and keeping him sound