Veterinary Student

[Orangehorse]

Maybe not but it is doubtless the attitude you would get from many UK vets in training. I think some of the comments made in response to the initial post are rather harsh. That a vet student from another country, where they may not view barefoot as we do here, has taken the trouble to ask suggests they are trying to learn more.

Sometimes posts by the barefoot Taliban do come across as aggressive. Not everyone is a great supporter of barefoot horses and I suspect sometimes it puts their backs up making them less likely to be interested.

Agree with this! Be nice to our Spanish visitor and enlighten.

Carmen, my horse is ridden without metal shoes, sometimes I use boots which does the same job as a metal shoe. I think that if I had not removed his shoes when he was 8/9 years old he would have developed navicular as he was starting to walk with a flat or toe first landing. I had him re-shod after a couple of years as I was showing him at big shows ridden.
Now his is retired from showing he is barefoot again. One of the reasons to do this is to keep him sound for as long as possible. He has good round feet, strong frogs and heels.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Connemara, I have 5 horses currently, all barefoot.
No difference IMO between white and black feet in terms of "strength". My endurance horse has three white feet and they behave no differently to the one black one. I have a mare with 4 white feet and they are strong, the same as the three other horses with 4 black feet!
As for barefoot feet suffering from more deformities I would contend the opposite is in fact the case. My own horse has a slightly clubbed foot (the black one!) which has been kept reasonable due to a good barefoot trim, Shoeing would, IMO, exacerbate the clubbing (or at least make it harder to keep it within reasonable limits).
Some bare feet can "look" deformed as some horses with wonky limbs above the hoof will grow an odd shaped foot as that is what their abnormal loading, due to the limb pathology, requires. My daughter's horse has offset knees and therefore toes in. The hoof looks normal from above, but is clearly not "ideal" from underneath. Works for her, as successful 80km rides (in hoof boots) will attest.
As for bevelling, I agree it can be done to excess but in my own herd I find I need to bevel to avoid chipping. My lot definitely get adequate movement as they live on 100 very dry acres in a mob, and three of them are in addition, ridden barefoot three times a week. They still need bevelling!
Oh, and yes, the level of care needed for a barefoot horse is more time consuming. Good horse management generally is.
I think the biggest testament to barefoot is the increasing number of barefoot/booted horses I see in endurance. Maybe we are all just a bunch of mavericks, or maybe it's because an endurance horse in full training will NEVER get a reset as they wear their shoes out and it gets expensive! But you could also argue that endurance horses' feet work harder than possibly any other discipline, and repetitive concussion is a huge issue for us as we do not get to compete in manicured arenas, yet there seem to be more and more horses in that sport not in traditional metal shoes. I have been told everything from "your horse will wear his feet to stumps" to "a top level competition horse NEEDS shoes for grip". Both are untrue, IMO and experience.
The biggest problem and obstacle to people getting their head around barefoot, IMO, is that there are no "rules"! Bevelling is not a rule, nor is short toes a 100% rule (I have one with long toes, this is her conformation, if I tried to change it too much she would go lame. As it is, she and her less than perfect feet are still sound at 21. She is retired because melanomas claimed one eye, not because of lameness. The horses will insist on throwing out the rule book!
As for my involvement with horses: I am a vet, although my practice is not equine based. I own 5 barefoot horses, have had three more previously. Previous to that I came from a UK background of shod horses for 20+ years. I came to barefoot not from idealogy but because I could not get a good farrier where I was living at the time.
I do hope I am not part of the "Barefoot Taliban" but I do get quite grumpy when I hear incorrect info, but I think we all have to come at this from our own experience. I personally am of the opinion that almost any horse can go barefoot, but that sometimes the owner cannot provide the environment in which the horse will be able to go barefoot. Some horses require a much more "ideal" environment than others. This is not WRONG, or a failing on the part of the owner. It just is. But if you cannot provide that ideal environment it is important to keep that level of self awareness and not try and tell others that "horses can't go barefoot because mine couldn't". Any more than I should say "ALL horses can easily be taken barefoot, because it was easy with mine". It WAS easy for me, but I have space, a dry environment, and the time where needed to kick a horse into the paddock (we are in Western Australia - our paddocks are for 6 months of the year effectively a Rockley Farm track system!)and ignore it for 6 - 12 months until the new foot grows in. This makes me LUCKY, not clever.

 

[connemara92]

Hi again guys!

I'm really glad and thankful of how many people respond to my post.

I have to say that I'm originally spanish, so I'm sorry if my english is not completely perfect.

Also, I'm really disappointed with all those people who told me I'm a narrow-minded person and that I have to open my mind. My mind is already opened, that's why I would like to know more about this topic, and know the opinion of people who has worked with barefoot horses. Don't you think that if I wouldn't be intereseted, I wouldn't have posted asking for your opinion?

In Spain, most of people who own a horse, have it shod, because barefoot is not so stablished here. It's true that step by step, there is more people now with barefoot horses, but it's going to take years for barefoot to be popular here in Spain. So please, I didn't judge noone, and reading some posts really hurt me.

I didn't have time to visit all the links you posted for me, but I tried to read all your posts, and will visit the links you gave me as soon as I can.

Answering to you, YCBM

Connemara92, there are a lot of people on this forum who will gladly give you information about barefoot horses. Several people already have, and several have recommended that you take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com.

More people will probably contribute if you give posters some feedback. Can you please let us know what your thoughts are about the information which you have been given so far? And whether it has changed your mind about barefoot causing hoof deformity?

Don't worry about your English, it's a lot better than most of us could write Spanish!

Reading all the posts made me change my mind, and see that shoeing horses is not always the better way. As I read, some of you rehabed horses hoof which where deformed because of shoeing, and thanks to barefoot, they came to it's original shape again. I also see that barefoot strengths the frog, which I had no idea about. Furthermore, my thoughts were that barefoot horses would always need boots for hard working and competing, but now I have evidence that they don't.

Now I know that barefoot doesn't cause deformation in the hoof, that the deformation is caused because of shoeing. But also as I said in my first post, you gave me evidence of that barefoot horses need more cares than shod ones, so, if you don't have time enough to take care of barefoot horses, shoeing them is the best option IMO.

My parents and I, own three horses since more than 20 years, and they always have been shod, and mostly didn't have any hoof problems. So maybe that's why I don't think shoeing a horse is that bad. Anyway, now I think that both ways are good, maybe barefoot better than shoeing, but I will also tell you something, and it's that you should also open your minds to shoeing horses, because I think that if you take the correct care, it can be also good for them.

All the information is really interesting and it will help me a lot with my work, so, thanks again.

 

[Orangehorse]

Good update. I think you are right that it is probably "easier" to have shoes, as the owner just has to arrange for a farrier every 6 weeks and not spend the rest of the time looking at their horse's feet as we barefooters tend to do.

Carmen, we have a Spanish vet that comes regularly to our farm to our cattle, she is very good.

 

[paddy555]

I am so glad you came back Carmen. I wish you luck with your training.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you for the update, that's great. Your English is really good.

My favorite vet was a Spanish girl. She said that she chose to work in this country because she felt that horses were better cared for in veterinary terms in the UK. I've no idea if that's true, but I was sorry the practice she was at lost her.

If you have any more questions about barefoot there are lots of people who will be happy to help. For example, we can list for you all the things that make it difficult for some horses, or tell you the amount of work we do with no shoes on. Anything which helps, let us know.

 

[Cuddly Connemara]

I find it even more depressing. Because the OP first posted this, exactly as it is now, in the Introductions forum. I made the points that you have made, pointed them to rockleyfarm.blogspot.com to learn, and yet they have reposted on here several days later without changing a word.

Carmen, that's not the attitude which I would expect from a vet in training.

I'm sorry but that last comment is totally uncalled for , as a veterinary student myself , I find that even senior vets have biased opinions towards things such as this. It's difficult not to allow your own opinions and preference to get in the way especially when a patient is asking for advice off you, it's something that we have to learn!
You have no idea what kind of attitude she has from a post she has written on the internet. I would say she has a very good attitude and work ethic to get the grades and work experience required to get into vet school - especially equine , which is extremely hard!

 

[ycbm]

I'm sorry but that last comment is totally uncalled for , as a veterinary student myself , I find that even senior vets have biased opinions towards things such as this. It's difficult not to allow your own opinions and preference to get in the way especially when a patient is asking for advice off you, it's something that we have to learn!
You have no idea what kind of attitude she has from a post she has written on the internet. I would say she has a very good attitude and work ethic to get the grades and work experience required to get into vet school - especially equine , which is extremely hard!

It was two posts on two threads, not one, the second separated by several days from posts advising her to do a bit more research before expressing some very, very seriously anti-barefoot views, as in 'barefoot causes hoof deformity'.

Someone seriously seeking information does not normally, even in a foreign language, state such an extreme point of view while seeking unbiased input from other people.

I am personally unconvinced that the original poster is not a troll. I avoided responding to her demand that people remain open minded about shoeing when she had zero evidence that anyone was not open minded about shoeing, on the basis that she was Spanish and did not realise how offensive what she said was. Jury is still out for me on whether this is even a real discussion, sorry

 

[paddy555]

It was two posts on two threads, not one, the second separated by several days from posts advising her to do a bit more research before expressing some very, very seriously anti-barefoot views, as in 'barefoot causes hoof deformity'.

Someone seriously seeking information does not normally, even in a foreign language, state such an extreme point of view while seeking unbiased input from other people.

I am personally unconvinced that the original poster is not a troll. I avoided responding to her demand that people remain open minded about shoeing when she had zero evidence that anyone was not open minded about shoeing, on the basis that she was Spanish and did not realise how offensive what she said was. Jury is still out for me on whether this is even a real discussion, sorry

Jury is still out for me on whether anyone could be this rude, sorry.

I can see nothing in Carmen's post to suggest she is a troll. How is she going to feel reading your comments.? Why on earth is it necessary to be so nasty? Last night you thanked her for the update, said that was great now you accuse her of possibly being a troll. Is this for real?

 

[brucea]

Now I know that barefoot doesn't cause deformation in the hoof, that the deformation is caused because of shoeing.

Actually Carmen - that is sort of missing the point in a way

Shoes tend to force a horse's hoof into an "ideal shape" that may npt be ideal for that horse, or really that horse's specific hoof.

Some barefoot trimmers don;t recognise that barefoot hooves can develop a degree of supporting asymmetry and will change shape (surprisingly quickly) to accommodate the loading put on that hoof and trim the hoof to an "ideal shape" which to my mind is every bit as bad as shoes in it's own way

The ideal position is to understand why the hoof is the shape it is, why there is that asymmetry or deviation and what it is actually supporting. Many times if you look at a horse with an asymmetrical in movement you will be lucky enough to see why that asymmetry is required to allow the horse to land properly heel first and in a balanced way. If it is a nind sometimes you can see why it is the shape it is by looking at the quarters and croup from behind - one side may be "flatter"

The trick in trimming is to manage that asymmetrical hoof so it does not become extreme and also work on the underlying causes if possible to strengthen and address one sidedness, build up muscle etc.

I have one of mine who deviates medially on a hind, leave it and he's sound, take it away and he struggles to stay sound.

It's always important to focus on the funtion of the hoof and to a certain extent turn a blind eye to the form.

But you'll never achieve a successful barefoot horse if you do not address frog and sulcus comfort (deal with thrush), have a low sugar high fibre diet, have adequate nutritional support, provide adequate movement over various surfaces, limit trimming to essential trimming only, and address any endocrine issues such as PPID.