Vets and confidentiality

McNally

McNally

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This horse i have been kindly presented with (unseen and certainly wouldnt have said yes had i known anything about it all) actually has a few issues i would like to find out more about.
I am either head over heels in love with a horse or completely indifferent about it- not a lot inbetween (I work with lots!)

This particular horse i have only had a few days but absolutely adore him, he is the very very sweetest little thing ever so i am very worried i'm in store for some serious heart ache here!

Now i know the previous owners vet, and wondered if its allowed to call him and ask about this horses medical history and prognosis WITHOUT it getting back to the owners?
Would this be allowed? I'm have specific questions so wont just be saying tell me about it!
 
McNally said:
This horse i have been kindly presented with (unseen and certainly wouldnt have said yes had i known anything about it all) actually has a few issues i would like to find out more about.
I am either head over heels in love with a horse or completely indifferent about it- not a lot inbetween (I work with lots!)

This particular horse i have only had a few days but absolutely adore him, he is the very very sweetest little thing ever so i am very worried i'm in store for some serious heart ache here!

Now i know the previous owners vet, and wondered if its allowed to call him and ask about this horses medical history and prognosis WITHOUT it getting back to the owners?
Would this be allowed? I'm have specific questions so wont just be saying tell me about it!
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He won't .. and tbf, you wouldn't like it if it was done to you. As you know there are issues and you are trialling the horse, why not just go for the assertive question with the owner as in "as I am trialling this horse properly, I am sure you don't mind if I call your vet?" if, for any reason, she says no, then the alarm bells would start to ring for me..
 
Vet wont tell you anything without the person who owned it AT THE TIME - permission.

I was the owner of a 8year old IDxTB and when I rang the vets who treated him earlier in his life, I was told it was a breach of confidentiality. ;) Useful, hey.
 
It would be a breach of confidentiality however you'd be amazed how much you could find out with his racing name and some well placed people in the racing circuit!!
 
It could be a matter of hit and miss, a few years back I contacted my vets about a stud dog I was due to pick up the next day, they informed me of several health issues including one that said stud dog was unable to sire anything!! which the owners never bothered to mention (suprise suprise!) I do believe it is breach of client confidentiality, however some vets may still divulge certain information!
 
No use- he said only records on him are teeth and jabs.
TBH actually i wouldnt mind at all I have never been anything other than 100% honest about my horses and truthfully answer any questions in the first place so have nothing to hide!

I know something here is not ringing true
 
Interesting point - I am selling a homebred and said they could get full vet history since birth (she is 16!)

I assumed I'd just have to give them an authority letter to release her records to the new owner - BUT I haven't spoken to the vet
 
Could you box clever, and ask the vet he's registered with out to see him and allow the vet to assume you know his history and have asked them out as he's with them for the owner and see what the vet chatters about when you ask open ended Qs like 'how long ago was it you last saw him?' and 'how much do you think he's improved since then?'
 
Personally I would write to the previous vets in the name of the previous owner and ask them to forward all his records on to his new vets. Without going into too much detail this is what I was advised to do when we bought a horse with a LOU and no details on it, our vet said we could spend thousands and still not find out what it was for. I couldn't see it through as we couldn't find out who the previous vet was but I was told it was likely to work!!
 
He only has one previous owner and i have spoken in length to her- she seemed really lovely and very honest to me. Unfortunately i have been stung twice before with "really lovely" people who i think see me coming!

The reason i worry is that someone i know had her horse stabled at the same yard last year and told me several things that contradict the owners version of events.

I have booked the vet to visit on Monday anyway. Not sure if i should maybe have booked a different vet? I get the impression he is friends with the owner so not sure if its putting him in an awkward position?

He is however also my vet and is due to jab my pony this week anyway so he'd have been out for that anyway.

Wish me luck- i am getting slightly soppy over this gorgeous little horse!!!
 
Hch4971- Good plan ;-) unfortunately same vet! and as we get on very well i don't want to swap- also i think that might be slightly dodgy!
 
Yes that would be the sensible thing!
I have had lot of heart ache with horses in the last 4 years- One died hideously to colic after his immune system failed, One was pts after struggling with truly awful allergies that made her whole life a misery. One i just couldnt deal with his issues as i am riding out with my young daughter so had to rehome him which was very hard. Our current baby pony has recently been diagnosed as only partially sighted and having an ongoing eye condition which will require treatment for the rest of his life

I cant handle more problems- I'm not completely "looking for things" This horse also has "a little wart which has never bothered him" actually a huge very nasty looking sarcoid (several of them) I'm worried- i think if i loose another horse i will crumble!
 
hch4971 said:
Personally I would write to the previous vets in the name of the previous owner and ask them to forward all his records on to his new vets. Without going into too much detail this is what I was advised to do when we bought a horse with a LOU and no details on it, our vet said we could spend thousands and still not find out what it was for. I couldn't see it through as we couldn't find out who the previous vet was but I was told it was likely to work!!
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Please DO NOT do that.

This is Fraud by False Representation as you would be making an assertion that you were the previous owners, which you are not, to make a gain for yourself.

Data Protection Act can be a pain in the butt! However, do not make any false reps as to who you are when trying to find out this information; it will only end in tears.
 
It probably isn't the right thing to do (and definitely not legal) but sometimes, when the information can be the difference between life and death, we do what we have to! They would have to prove that it was you who wrote the letter if it ever came back and obviously wouldn't work if the same vet was used by both owners.
 
As it is the same vet, why not approach with an air of assumption that you already know all about the horse's vetted history, and chat in a 'I hear you know all about this horse' point of view, without letting on you don't know - vet might let spill what he knows,
 
hch4971 said:
It probably isn't the right thing to do (and definitely not legal) but sometimes, when the information can be the difference between life and death, we do what we have to! They would have to prove that it was you who wrote the letter if it ever came back and obviously wouldn't work if the same vet was used by both owners.
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I am sorry, but there is no "probably" about it!

I understand, from an owner point of view that I would want the information; HOWEVER, two wrongs don't make a right, and committing an offence, especially fraud, is not justified.

They would very easily be able to prove it was you that wrote the letter, whether you wrote it on a computer, by hand etc. They would also run forensics on it if necessary and then ask why your fingerprints/DNA were on it. That is as a start anyway. I work in Criminal Law, and a part of my job is preparing Crown Court cases and providing advice to those who have been arrest and are at Police Stations. I am VERY aware of how easily the Police can get the information they need - you would be amazed at how much of a trail even the most careful person can leave! Should someone choose to do this, be found out and convicted, not only is it a criminal record that they are lumbered with, but one with a "dishonesty" element. Quite difficult to get a job with proof of dishonesty.

Anyway, OP, I would attempt to contact the previous owners; failing that, any records or perhpas previous homes you are aware of? I'm sorry, I am not aware of how you acquired the horse :) You could always speak to the vet and be honest. If you need to know for the purposes of insuring the horse, maybe they would be more willing to help?
 
He's a little ex racer, Only one owner, The person who bred him still owns a 50% share with the trainer who he donated the other 50% to.

I didnt mean all this in a fraudulent, sneaky way!!
 
McNally said:
He's a little ex racer, Only one owner, The person who bred him still owns a 50% share with the trainer who he donated the other 50% to.

I didnt mean all this in a fraudulent, sneaky way!!
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I know! I am replying to another post on here, that is all :)

I hope you get it sorted; I think if you speak to the vet re the sarcoid; maybe say that you are going to get pony insured (if you are) and that they will know about the sarcoid being a pre-existing condition - is there anything else you should know about ailments, injury, illness and treatment so that you do not mislead the insurer; particularly as they are the same vet, so if treated for something which is covered by an insurer and they ask the vet for a history you don't get stung :)
 
fine_and_dandy said:
I am sorry, but there is no "probably" about it!

I understand, from an owner point of view that I would want the information; HOWEVER, two wrongs don't make a right, and committing an offence, especially fraud, is not justified.

They would very easily be able to prove it was you that wrote the letter, whether you wrote it on a computer, by hand etc. They would also run forensics on it if necessary and then ask why your fingerprints/DNA were on it. That is as a start anyway. I work in Criminal Law, and a part of my job is preparing Crown Court cases and providing advice to those who have been arrest and are at Police Stations. I am VERY aware of how easily the Police can get the information they need - you would be amazed at how much of a trail even the most careful person can leave! Should someone choose to do this, be found out and convicted, not only is it a criminal record that they are lumbered with, but one with a "dishonesty" element. Quite difficult to get a job with proof of dishonesty.

Anyway, OP, I would attempt to contact the previous owners; failing that, any records or perhpas previous homes you are aware of? I'm sorry, I am not aware of how you acquired the horse :) You could always speak to the vet and be honest. If you need to know for the purposes of insuring the horse, maybe they would be more willing to help?
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LOL, I also worked for several years in criminal law, I appointed the people who gave initial advice at the police station and at court (ie duty solicitors and legal reps!) for the whole of a large region, and studied ILEX with the intention of becoming a legal rep myself. I was heavily involved in the setting up of the CDS in the same region and I understand quite a lot about criminal law from the work I did. I would be quite confident that the police would not be involved and even if they were then the CPS wouldn't bother with prosecution as it wouldn't be in the public interest to waste all that money! Slight over reaction I think! I was given the advice by a vet, who was very aware of the state of the horse in question and how important it was that we found out his history, it is something that is often done apparently! OP has already stated that this is a completely different situation but it is something I wouldn't hesitate to do in the future if it meant a horse could be treated appropriately and the owners had lied about the history!
 
hch4971 said:
LOL, I also worked for several years in criminal law, I appointed the people who gave initial advice at the police station and at court (ie duty solicitors and legal reps!) for the whole of a large region, and studied ILEX with the intention of becoming a legal rep myself. I was heavily involved in the setting up of the CDS in the same region and I understand quite a lot about criminal law from the work I did. I would be quite confident that the police would not be involved and even if they were then the CPS wouldn't bother with prosecution as it wouldn't be in the public interest to waste all that money! Slight over reaction I think! I was given the advice by a vet, who was very aware of the state of the horse in question and how important it was that we found out his history, it is something that is often done apparently! OP has already stated that this is a completely different situation but it is something I wouldn't hesitate to do in the future if it meant a horse could be treated appropriately and the owners had lied about the history!
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As someone who practises in it in the here and now, I have no hesitation in saying that this is not an overreaction I'm afraid. I go into Police Stations day in, day out and I agree with you; some things that are dealt with are a HUGE waste of money! Absolutely njo question.

HOWEVER, the advice given to you, and in turn to the OP by you, could result in POlice action being taken if it came out. All it takes is the original owners to feel aggrieved at what has happened - using their identity without their knowledge.

Anyway; I have given my opinion on the above matters :) and have also said to the OP what I woud do given her situation is different to the one you mentioned - obviously having the same vet causes a problem in more ways than one! I would like to think that people can be sensible about things, particularly when it comes down to the health of a horse who can't tell you what is going on himself. However, as we know, nowt so queer as folk, and particularly horsey ones!! :D

Where did you work? I am about to be in charge of sending all our bods out and dealing with the general stress that is the Police Station Coordinator!
 
fine_and_dandy said:
As someone who practises in it in the here and now, I have no hesitation in saying that this is not an overreaction I'm afraid. I go into Police Stations day in, day out and I agree with you; some things that are dealt with are a HUGE waste of money! Absolutely njo question.

HOWEVER, the advice given to you, and in turn to the OP by you, could result in POlice action being taken if it came out. All it takes is the original owners to feel aggrieved at what has happened - using their identity without their knowledge.

Anyway; I have given my opinion on the above matters :) and have also said to the OP what I woud do given her situation is different to the one you mentioned - obviously having the same vet causes a problem in more ways than one! I would like to think that people can be sensible about things, particularly when it comes down to the health of a horse who can't tell you what is going on himself. However, as we know, nowt so queer as folk, and particularly horsey ones!! :D

Where did you work? I am about to be in charge of sending all our bods out and dealing with the general stress that is the Police Station Coordinator!
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I worked for the Y&H LSC based at Leeds, Good luck in your new role, I used to do the DS rotas for the region and know what a pain it can be! :)
 
I recently bought another horse (who has had/still has various issues), strangely enough I was referred by current vet to take my old horse to the new horses previous vet (if that makes sense). While I was waiting around I asked how easy it would be to get the full medical records of my new horse and was told they would have to have the old owners permission via email due to confidentiality.
 
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