Vets and Hips.

MurphysMinder

MurphysMinder

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Apologies if this is a little long. On more than one occasion CC and I, plus a few others, have encouraged people not to take their vets word for it when the vet looks at a lame dog and says it has hip dysplasia. I have now actually had experience of similar, but probably even worse, myself with one of Evie's litter last year.
To try and keep it short, new owner took her pup to the vets for a check up at 8 weeks, as stated on puppy sales contract. Owner phoned me shortly after, in tears, as the vet had expressed concern about pups hips (after as far as I can gather, lifting her by her hindlegs and trying to wheelbarrow her, pup had not surprisingly objected.) This is a quote from vets written report " both hips severe limited ROM, concerned about the discomfort in the hip joints, both h/l cowhocked as well, advised to discuss with breeders, if no better in 2 weeks then x ray". I was of course horrified, particularly as pup had been checked by my own vet before leaving. I immediately contacted my vet and he confirmed, as I expected, that x raying at that age was pointless unless pup was crippled, which she wasn't she was very active and had never shown any sign of a limp. I spoke again to owner and we agreed that she would do nothing but if she did want to x ray it would be done at my vets, at my expense.
When pup went back to her vet for 2nd vacc this was his report about hips "
"limited range in movement of both hips still.....difficult to give long term prognosis. My concern is that this may indicate that there is a hip dysplasia type issue here with all the associated complications"

Now fast forward 12 months, and this pup was x rayed (at my vets) for the BVA scheme. My vet was happy with her hips, no cause for concern at all, and her score has just come back 6:9, total 15.:) Luckily this pup had a sensible owner who was prepared to listen to my vet, myself and the stud dogs owner and wait rather than return the pup, but it could have been very different. A 12 week old pup could also have undergone a GA for x rays for absolutely no reason. :mad:
Pup also had an elbow score of 0, and her sister my Freya scored 5:3 hips and
0 elbow so very chuffed.
 
Vets make so bl**dy angry when they do this!
A freind was told her 8 week pup had luxating patella ! Basically a young baby with soft ligaments was caused pain by a vet pushing out of socket. That pup was tested for luxation at 18 months and given a clear !

Thank heavens your puppy buyer listened to you
 
There is no way to diagnose hip dysplasia without an x-ray.
Lameness and discomfort can also come from the back, the shoulders, the neck, neurological problems, sore pads, muscles, ligaments.
I'd get a bit annoyed if someone pulled my legs about, doesn't mean I am a cripple.

There is no way to definitively diagnose the severity of hip dysplasia without getting x-ray plates scored by the BVA, SV, OFA, whoever.

I heard a very well respected vet telling a client that ALL GSDs get hip dysplasia. That's amazing, in many decades, touch wood, all of ours have been x-rayed and have had good hips. Same vet made all sorts of dire predictions about my old dog's hips because he did not like being pulled around on the table while getting a scan. X-rayed by another vet at the same practise who said he had one of the best set of hips he'd seen....turns out he did have an issue with his back though, which is why it is important to check everything out.

Well done on the scores, and just as an aside, my young dog LOVES getting wheelbarrowed, the little weirdo :p
 
Exactly CC, just makes you wonder how many dogs are condemned or at best have unnecessary treatment. Love the idea of Floofy being wheelbarrowed, its quite likely this little fluffy wouldn't mind now, she just objected at 8 weeks old.
Just because she was such a little darling, this was her at 5 weeks



And this is her now
 
Utterly ridiculous and I'm glad you have it all sorted now. Thank heavens pup owner was prepared to listen to you (says a lot for your selection in buyers as well :))

I think people have to remember that vets are human and subject to the same biases as anyone else (some more than others, clearly :mad:). Best to educate yourself as well, be prepared to probe and ask questions if you don't understand/are not happy with what they offer you and try to cultivate a relationship with an individual vet who has similar viewpoints to your own, as well as maintaining a relationship with the breeder if applicable. And never accept a diagnosis without them being able to offer proof!

I have butted heads with one at our practice and now exclusively see a specific vet who knows the dogs well and embraces my views on things like feeding, exercise and treatments.

Lovely pics, as with Freya I don't think I'd be permitted to blow raspberries on her belly again. :p
 
Really glad your pup was with sensible owners.

I do worry about the standard of younger vets these days. Some seem a bit "all the gear, no idea", with the "gear" being exams and the "idea" being a practical understanding of animals.

Love the photo!
 
This was actually a partner in the practice Inthemud, so certainly not a younger vet. In quite a few of the cases where I have heard of similar sweeping statements being made it has been senior vets, hopefully younger vets would be less inclined to make a diagnosis without being sure of the facts.
 
It was just first vaccination and general check up. She had absolutely no issues, was(and still is) a very happy, bouncy pup , in fact a little horror.:D
 
MurphysMinder said:
I am planning on writing to him with a copy of the score sheet, and a few comments.;)
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Good and I hope he has the decency to reply, its quite shocking they wanted to put a young pup through ga. Thank goodness you are a caring breeder and had a decent owner of the pup who was prepared to take you and your vets words on board.
 
MurphysMinder said:
I am planning on writing to him with a copy of the score sheet, and a few comments.;)
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Ooh, I'd be ruddy furious! Thank God the owner is sensible (good choice, there!)

Remember the furore with my two? The vet took what I believe to be deliberately crap x rays, no blocking, over exposed on a second request to backup his diagnosis, IMO. I would never again use him for important x rays. He also offered to fix a snapped cruciate with wire: I went to a specialist. I think vets, much like doctors, are general practitioners. Specialists are just that for a reason.

Even I know that GSDs are prone to eg loos hocks at a young age and that there's no point x rating til at least 12 months! :eek:
 
I remember and think I commented on the quality of the x rays. Yes thank heavens the owner took advice, but you can imagine how upset she was. She had lost her previous GSD at only 6 with liver failure, and had thought long and hard about having another, done loads of research, and visited the pups many times. She was in bits when she phoned me, she already loved the pup but was seriously considering returning her as she just couldn't face losing another at an early age, and the vet had given her the impression that could happen.:(
 
CaveCanem said:
There is no way to diagnose hip dysplasia without an x-ray.
Lameness and discomfort can also come from the back, the shoulders, the neck, neurological problems, sore pads, muscles, ligaments.
I'd get a bit annoyed if someone pulled my legs about, doesn't mean I am a cripple.

There is no way to definitively diagnose the severity of hip dysplasia without getting x-ray plates scored by the BVA, SV, OFA, whoever.

p
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I have had my eyes opened since starting work at a large vet practice - there are so many people who do not wish to do "expensive" diagnostic work ups and would rather just have a quick solution after a check over. I cannot understand this mentality, but there it is.

So what's a vet to do? Someone comes in and dog is lame - vet says we can't tell what's wrong til we do x=rays. Owner says, I don't want to pay. Vet says, well, it's hard to tell what it is -but potentially could be HD and it would be better to xray to be sure. Owner says thank you very much and goes away saying "dog has HD, vet said so"

Can't tell you the number of times I've seen people who go in to vets or to groomers and lie about what one or the other said. Drives me round the bend.


Have also been there in surgery when during a very busy day an xray machine failed, dog is under anaesthetic and vet and nurse trying to work out why xray machine not making quality photos. I'm sure the owner was less than impressed, but definitely not for lack of trying to produce the best quality images.

Yes, vets for the most part are general practitioners. But you do get some practices where there are specialists and if possible I would always try to go to one for a specific issue. At my work I'm lucky enough to have one vet who is a skin specialist, one who is orthopaedics, one who deals with eyes. The rest of the staff are all pretty well rounded and have the support of the specialists. But at the end of the day, the vets don't want to do shoddy work on purpose - they do take huge pride in their work but yes mistakes can be made, sometimes outwith their control.

I was surprised to find out that vets have an incredibly high suicide rate - after reading this and other threads on other forums where the general opinion of them is very low and very openly stated - I can understand why. (Sorry, CC wasn't having a go at you - but I'd highlighted your post for the xray comments being the only way to diagnose, which I agree with).
 
MurphysMinder said:
It was just first vaccination and general check up. She had absolutely no issues, was(and still is) a very happy, bouncy pup , in fact a little horror.:D
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Okay, I should have read the whole thread - sorry!

My little outburst above doesn't really make a whole lot of sense now LOL

I still stand behind my comments in general, but not relating to the original post. I should go back to sleep but unfortunately I have to get ready for work where I can go talk more nonsense ;)
 
I think too many owners will hear half of what the vet says, but many inexperienced vets will jump to the wrong conclusion and state the worst. My daughter is a vn and even she and I have endless "discussions" on feeding, ( I feed raw) neutering ages, etc.

I have a vet I trust, I will cry when he retires! He is worth his weight in gold with my animals because he listens to me!
 
PucciNPony, I hate having a go at vets (my daughter is one after all) and generally you will find me on here defending them, but in this case I was furious. I do agree with your points in general, my own vets are wonderful and I have complete faith in them. Sadly I know how high the suicide rate in vets is, our own wonderful horse vet took his own life last October.:(
 
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At a tangent, with regard to your comments re expensive diagnostic work ups versus quick solutions- people are always complaining that vets seem to be keen to ask if an animal is insured, this is often so they know if it is sensible to go for expensive diagnostics or try the cheapest option. Sometimes poor vets can't win, although I will still be writing to the prat who saw this pup.
 
interesting thread! i know nothing about hip dysplasia but took one of the boys to the vets a week or so ago as when they've all been out on a long walk and running about like mad things - towards the end he'll shorten up, not track up and just seem a bit stiff. that evening he'll flake out on his bed and whines whenever he moves position or i go to stroke him. He's only 14 months approx and very underweight with no muscle so i just thought as he's a pretty vocal dog he was just tired and achey.

Vet 'wheelbarrowed' him, anjo who is the worlds wimpiest dog, yelped and vet said that its likely to be hip dysplasia type problems but a diagnosis is expensive and recommended shorter walks!

Fingers crossed he'll grow out of it. sorry for the long ramble but thought i'd share!
 
PuccinPoni, I don't disagree, that was a message for anyone who is worried rather than vet bashing, the vet I went to with B, who x-rayed him, is very highly regarded and sought after and busy yet still said I could ring him at any time over any of the dog's many issues. he is worth his weight in gold.

Of course a lot of dogs who have their back legs taken from under them, stretched and rotated (not something a lot of people will do with their dogs at home!) will display some discomfort.

I don't actually think x-rays and scoring is that expensive in the grand scheme of things (long term medication must work out at more!) but obviously that depends on area.
 
MurphysMinder said:
At a tangent, with regard to your comments re expensive diagnostic work ups versus quick solutions- people are always complaining that vets seem to be keen to ask if an animal is insured, this is often so they know if it is sensible to go for expensive diagnostics or try the cheapest option. Sometimes poor vets can't win, although I will still be writing to the prat who saw this pup.
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I think the reason I was on my "high horse" this morning wasn't because of your OP - but a few comments here as well as other forums just tend to be a bit bashy bashy of vets in general - and this thread had a few elements of it as well. Had no idea your daughter is a vet BTW. And I think you're right to complain if you feel that the vet was out of order.

But yes, there are lots of good vets that are just doing the best they can with what they have (information, clients willingness to pay etc, diagnostic equipment) and I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people say "those bloody vets" or "money grabbing" or "incompetent". True, there are lots out there like that, but on the whole I don't think that there are THAT many vets who fit this description.
 
CaveCanem said:
PuccinPoni, I don't disagree, that was a message for anyone who is worried rather than vet bashing, the vet I went to with B, who x-rayed him, is very highly regarded and sought after and busy yet still said I could ring him at any time over any of the dog's many issues. he is worth his weight in gold.

Of course a lot of dogs who have their back legs taken from under them, stretched and rotated (not something a lot of people will do with their dogs at home!) will display some discomfort.

I don't actually think x-rays and scoring is that expensive in the grand scheme of things (long term medication must work out at more!) but obviously that depends on area.
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I don't think they're that expensive either (even at the practice I work for, which IS perhaps the most expensive in my area, in an expensive city...), but then we do get a lot of folk that don't want to spend more than the consultation fee! And then usually complain about that too.

Had a convo with one of the vets I'm particularly friendly with - and we were talking about grooming and veterinary fees in general. I reckoned that people are unhappy to shell out for vet care because they're used to getting their health care FOC on the NHS (okay, not FOC - footed by the tax payer). Grooming they will pay and will understand the value of say a £20 groom versus a £40 one. There will be exceptions to this of course, but they also understand the difference between a hair dresser that charges a tenner versus one that charges significantly more.

So when faced with the prospect of shelling out hundreds for anaesthetic, xrays, scopes and scans - that's BEFORE treatment has started - they just don't want to know!
 
Daughter feels exactly the same re vets fees and NHS. She has spent some time in America and over there people spend a fortune on their horses (sometimes keeping them going when perhaps they should be pts:(). The vets over there feel because people have to pay for their own medical care they fully expect to have to pay high fees for the animals.
 
What a state of affairs, that "hip displaysia" has become so very, very common place in dogs generally, what a mess!!!!!!!!! God forbid that horses follow this slippery slope.... is it already too late? luxating patella anyone?....... "Look Back In Anger"???? we will be doing if we are not extremely careful!
 
HD has always been around, but I think (as in horses) things are diagnosed more often now due to an increase in insured animals, and diagnostics being more readily available.

However, there are certainly more unscrupulous breeding practices with people who are trying to get the next designer litter on the ground and sold.
 
As far as i know you are supposed to wait at least until 12 months before x-raying for hip/elbow dysplasia, so this was a very odd reaction by the vet and unnecessarily worrying for you and the owner. I am so glad the story had a happy ending, the owner must have been so relieved!!!

I treat my local vets as GPs and go to a specialist vet at the first sign of a more complicated problem. It doesn't mean that my local vets are useless, just that it's difficult to know everything there is to know in such a wide field.
 
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