Vets, barefoot, evidence-based medicine...........

Oberon said:
You need to take the sick hoof, feed it properly and allow movement within the horse's comfort in order to grow a healthy and strong hoof.

This takes the owner's dedication and time (at least six months).

Not many insurance companies, vets or owners are going to want to accept a six month 'wait and see' approach with barefoot.

Not many vets are going to recommend barefoot rehab as a treatment option when the best we have to justify it all is some dubious anecdotal evidence from a bunch of militant hippies on the internet......:D

The thing with barefoot rehab is that it can go wrong if the basics of diet and movement are not in place. You are placing a lot of trust in the owner and if they mess up somehow - they will turn around and blame you, the vet :(.
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This would all be very understandable if there were actually any evidence that remedial shoeing and the other treatments currently used were in fact effective. I'm at a point now where I'd rather they recommended a bullet in the first place than complicated shoes. It doesn't make sense to me that barefoot isn't taken seriously due to a lack of scientific proof of success but remedial farriery is. How is this one explained? :confused:

ETA Even with remedial farriery it is a waiting and seeing game and they tell you the horse will eventually deteriorate anyway.
 
Oberon said:
This takes the owner's dedication and time (at least six months).

Not many insurance companies, vets or owners are going to want to accept a six month 'wait and see' approach with barefoot.


As an owner if you will do six months box rest followed by rehab for say a suspensory injury and have the horse off work for a year why not the same for the feet ?
I bought a TB , typical foot troubles for a horse of his type and lifestyle he had had I thought it through, if it was further up his leg the issue was showing I would have not given taking six months or a year a second thought so I gave his feet the same consideration six months on I am astounded by his progress and saddened for some of my past horses who I did not give the same chance.
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What does interest me is that back in the day ;) the standard regime for treating many ills was do whatever we could, then shoes off and into the biggest, roughest area possible, pat horse on head, check back in 6 months. If sound, start walking. If not sound, back in field, check again in 6 months. It was not that unusual for horses to miss a year or more. And even without an injury it was common for horses to have shoes off and out/reduced work for part of the year anyway.

Even some of the treatments that were a bit dodgy but often involved extended rest. I've had old horsemen tell me the best thing about firing is it looks awful so people give the poor animal the time off because they don't want to be seen on it before it's healed anyway!

I am not for or against shoeing. Courses for horses. But it does seem to be getting more and more complicated but not necessarily more and more successful. I've seen at least three horses treated aggressively for hoof related lameness this year that have ended up having the better part of 6 months or more off. I do wonder sometimes what might have happened if they'd just had the shoes off and out. (Much harder to do now and here, I realise.). I've had one out post injury and rehab shoeing that wasn't working and I'd say it's taken nearly a year for him to look completely comfortable. He's been technically sound for months but only recently has his posture and general outlook started to improve to the point where I would think we're getting back to something like optimum, given wear and tear etc.

Things take time. Whenever I've been injured it's taken much longer to return to full function than to "heal" in a medical sense. And even that is relative as I have bits that will never be exactly as they were. Why do we expect different from our animals?
 
Flame_ said:
This would all be very understandable if there were actually any evidence that remedial shoeing and the other treatments currently used were in fact effective. I'm at a point now where I'd rather they recommended a bullet in the first place than complicated shoes. It doesn't make sense to me that barefoot isn't taken seriously due to a lack of scientific proof of success but remedial farriery is. How is this one explained? :confused:

ETA Even with remedial farriery it is a waiting and seeing game and they tell you the horse will eventually deteriorate anyway.
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The idea of sculpting and manipulating the hoof and limb loading via shoes is well recognised with centuries of practice. It's the accepted way to do things. You often see instant 'results' with remedial shoes in terms of comfort and the appearance of loading better.

When I first got into barefoot in 2004 there were horses that, "just couldn't go barefoot". Diet was all about 'magic barefoot powder' (linseed, BY and seaweed).

Around 2007, the impact of mineral balancing on the hoof emerged and came over to the UK. Then 'magic barefoot powder' was out and copper and zinc was in. This was a key piece to some of those horses that were difficult before.

But it's always a 'sometimes not always' approach with barefoot as each horse is an individual, and what works for one may not work for another.

There is still a lot we don't really understand about what makes hooves tick (nerve function, proteins, hormones etc) and when something new comes to light - we change our recommendations.

So it looks like barefooters are always changing their story on what works - it makes us look wafty and like we're constantly making s*** up :o.

Remedial shoes, as a comparison, are an established answer that don't change with the wind.....:o

It's easier to place your faith in remedial shoes :).
 
Tarrsteps when I was a child ,rough hill ,companion pony and a lump of rock salt was the best chance of a cure for many things from sore heels to stifle issues I think perhaps we have got to clever and have too much reliance on jabbing or operating on this that and the other .
Youngstock was kept thin by modern standards in fact horses generally were thin by modern standards .
I don't think all in the past was best but I think we have lost the way a bit in some areas.
 
Oberon said:
The idea of sculpting and manipulating the hoof and limb loading via shoes is well recognised with centuries of practice. It's the accepted way to do things. You often see instant 'results' with remedial shoes in terms of comfort and the appearance of loading better.

When I first got into barefoot in 2004 there were horses that, "just couldn't go barefoot". Diet was all about 'magic barefoot powder' (linseed, BY and seaweed).

Around 2007, the impact of mineral balancing on the hoof emerged and came over to the UK. Then 'magic barefoot powder' was out and copper and zinc was in. This was a key piece to some of those horses that were difficult before.

But it's always a 'sometimes not always' approach with barefoot as each horse is an individual, and what works for one may not work for another.

There is still a lot we don't really understand about what makes hooves tick (nerve function, proteins, hormones etc) and when something new comes to light - we change our recommendations.

So it looks like barefooters are always changing their story on what works - it makes us look wafty and like we're constantly making s*** up :o.

Remedial shoes, as a comparison, are an established answer that don't change with the wind.....:o

It's easier to place your faith in remedial shoes :).
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This along with this ---
MontyandZoom said:
It is a very difficult situation. Retrospective studies are not expensive if we can encourage every vet to keep good case records. Now I just need some willing PhD student...........:)
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Just imagine how far and fast we could improve our knowledge and practice with more thinking outside the box and sharing info/experiences.
 
Goldenstar said:
Tarrsteps when I was a child ,rough hill ,companion pony and a lump of rock salt was the best chance of a cure for many things from sore heels to stifle issues I think perhaps we have got to clever and have too much reliance on jabbing or operating on this that and the other .
Youngstock was kept thin by modern standards in fact horses generally were thin by modern standards .
I don't think all in the past was best but I think we have lost the way a bit in some areas.
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Oh, I have no illusions about the old days! :D. Remember tube worming?!? Or horses with giant white wither scars?? :eek:

I just flinch a bit now when I hear people saying that this or that intervention is the "only chance". It's clearly not, as proved by the fact that horses did come back from even quite serious conditions in the past. And when it cost very little to turn horses away there were certainly "miracle" stories of horses given a "last summer" turning it around.

Shoeing does follow fashion though, too. Remember giant trailers? I recently saw some horses kept in what we in the UK/North America would consider "old style" ways, some with big trailers behind. It made me laugh as have not seen that for years. Ditto wedges for hock spavins - they work by a well understood mechanism of transferring force and it used to be you just put them on and hoped you got a few more years out of the horse. No one thought they were "curing" anything. Maybe that's part of the change? The trend towards, quick decisive answers?
 
reborn amandap said:
:cool: It was no mention of prevention that got me. :D
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hug.gif
 
TarrSteps said:
Oh, I have no illusions about the old days! :D. Remember tube worming?!? Or horses with giant white wither scars?? :eek:

I just flinch a bit now when I hear people saying that this or that intervention is the "only chance". It's clearly not, as proved by the fact that horses did come back from even quite serious conditions in the past. And when it cost very little to turn horses away there were certainly "miracle" stories of horses given a "last summer" turning it around.

Shoeing does follow fashion though, too. Remember giant trailers? I recently saw some horses kept in what we in the UK/North America would consider "old style" ways, some with big trailers behind. It made me laugh as have not seen that for years. Ditto wedges for hock spavins - they work by a well understood mechanism of transferring force and it used to be you just put them on and hoped you got a few more years out of the horse. No one thought they were "curing" anything. Maybe that's part of the change? The trend towards, quick decisive answers?
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Remember 90% of conditions required a kaolin poultice or a bran mash or both.
The regular use of lead lotion ,toxic to horse and groom
And the use of whale oil !!! ( hangs head in shame)
 
This thread is very interesting to me as i am having a problem with my vet who appears to be totally anti barefoot. The first thing he told me was that my pony doesn't need magnesium as she will get enough from her feed. I had to point out that as a fat pony she doesn't get much in the way of feed!

He has now told me that the only way of solving the reverse rotation and broken angles of her front feet is to shoe as it was being barefoot that caused this. The fact that she had had shoes on for 8 weeks due to him insisting that i keep them on so that he could x ray her and then forgot to book her in, which was why her toes where too long escaped his notice.

Pony has now got shoes back off angles back to normal.

Still lame but i knew it was unlikely to be her feet in the first case.

So £600.00 later no further forward
 
Goldenstar said:
Remember 90% of conditions required a kaolin poultice or a bran mash or both.
The regular use of lead lotion ,toxic to horse and groom
And the use of whale oil !!! ( hangs head in shame)
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I don't remember using whale oil!:eek: What was it for?

I think that most research is funded. And there isn't much 'product' to sell in barefoot, or rest for that matter.
 
There is no money in it. It would be a shameful waste. A study will laugh in the face of farriers that have "gone" barefoot and all the years sitting in the desert studying hooves, dissecting hooves, taking expensive scans with their own money to further their OWN knowledge about hooves. Now, why can't others be content with building on this?

You only have google or borrow Obe's books to learn a little bit. Most of it is practical physics and physiology. Does the fact that thousands and thousands of horses roam untamed unshod surviving anything the wild throws at them bear nothing on our thoughts?

This is why I personally think a study will only prove that shoes are not necessary in many cases and should be used as needed.

Anyway, so many things need sorting in this country. Over feeding, over rugging, and under working! That, IMO, is the biggest problem to hooves (and everything else!), not whether they have steel bits nailed to them or they have a manicure every few months.
 
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Oberon said:
Exactly.

It's a common theme among barefooters where they dread calling the vet and become very anxious about having a confrontation over the hooves.

Some vets will see any lameness as being caused by the lack of shoes. This is sometimes the case, but not EVERY time.

This very thing applied to me this week. My horse has been undergoing exams and treatments for PSD and associated lameness issues. So far he has had fetlock's and hocks medicated and although now no longer lame was still very sore through his S/I.
Aside from this I have been working hard to transition him to barefoot as his hooves were very shoe sick with the suppport of an excellent farrier. My vet was aware that I had removed his prescibed bar shoes fronts and rolled toe hinds but had yet to acknowledge this fact verbally.
Part of the plan to get my horse better had always been to inject his S/I area if it became necessary so when he still seemed stiff I called my vet.
She came on Tuesday and before even examining him or trotting him up she was talking about putting hoof testers on :(
Funnily enough though after seeing him move and having to admit how sound he looked (just very tight over his back) she agreed that his S/I was to blame and carried out the injections and shockwave.
Hoof testers were not mentioned again :D
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Honey Pony said:
The first thing he told me was that my pony doesn't need magnesium as she will get enough from her feed.
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Haha - had the exact same conversation with my sister (vet) who said that horses aren't cows, therefore they dont need extra magnesium. I explained that due to forage analysis I know my grazing is deficient in magnesium - so by feeding the deficit Im taking the grass back to neutral, rather than feeding extra for what they lose during work.

Said sister is also clueless on BF - advice for large sandcrack was a clip :rolleyes: when helping me worming at the weekend and horse puts it head up she wanted to twitch, i refused so then shes neck twitching and then tried ear twitching before we fell out :o No horse handling skills at all grr

She looked at one of mines foot as shes slightly lame which I was convinced was her knee as it was hot and swollen the night she did it, sister saw old abscess exit point on sole and whipped hoof knife out - ARGH!!!! Took that off her too :p

Her primary interest is farm though not equine (she cant stand us high maintenance equine owners!) so she isnt going to go and do further research into bf. What you need is a few equine vets to get their heads out of their backsides, go and do the UKNHCP course, research themselves etc etc.
 
Can I just say how great a vet it sounds as though you are going to be Monteandzoom?

I am sorry that you will operate in an environment of fear of being sued, I know that it is holding back barefoot rehab recommendations.

I also fear that it is resulting in an absolute explosion in box rest for conditions that would be better kept moving, but that's another thread.
 
ozpoz said:
I don't remember using whale oil!:eek: What was it for?

I think that most research is funded. And there isn't much 'product' to sell in barefoot, or rest for that matter.
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We mixed it with a little pine oil , then equal parts of cod liver oil , whale oil , and I think neats foot oil ( Not sure on that ) to make a gloppy potion for mud fever , crackled heels etc.
I think it's what was called four oils.
 
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Cptrayes - thank you so much for that :D I have been stuck revising today so that's cheered me up!

I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.

I have had some really helpful PMs and I'm going to speak to the equine clinical club at school about maybe getting a guest speaker in. (The club offers evening optional talks for those interested in equine)

Feel quite right on about sorting out these issues and getting things moving in the right direction.
 
MontyandZoom said:
Cptrayes - thank you so much for that :D I have been stuck revising today so that's cheered me up!

I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.

I have had some really helpful PMs and I'm going to speak to the equine clinical club at school about maybe getting a guest speaker in. (The club offers evening optional talks for those interested in equine)

Feel quite right on about sorting out these issues and getting things moving in the right direction.
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Woohoo please please do!!! The profession isnt moving forwards which is such a shame when your clients are :)
 
This is a marvellous thread!

The politics and economics of research funding priorities certainly merit their very own funded research...

I've had good and bad experiences with vets. I was first turned towards barefoot as a child, actually, by a vet, who was a family friend. This vet (whose name you'll be able to guess from context) is a bit of a controversial figure in the UK, at least (though not so much on the continent). This controversy, itself, might easily be a study in the socio-politics of the hoof care world: there's a lot of stories and blame, and obfuscation of events...people aligning themselves certain ways, just to avoid being tarred with the same brush, whether or not that brush actually has any tar on it at all...

As the rider of a barefoot Endurance horse, I receive criticism on two fronts: riders, none of whom have had a barefoot performance horse, and some ride vets. Interestingly, I've never had any issues with the ride farriers (we have those in Scotland)! They tend to say: you'll be fine!

Managing a barefoot horse here is more difficult than where I grew up. We keep them on mud here, and expect them to perform over really stony ground. Common sense should tell us that this isn't trivial, and that we should expect to think carefully about a training regime and about booting when necessary.

I made a mistake at the beginning of this season, building up training too fast, and the pony's feet wore too quickly and in undesirable ways. The trimmer spotted this immediately, and we took remedial action, with careful trimming and booting. A ride vet later (the horse was already improving) was not interested in any of this, and instead wanted to point out over and over that the horse's hooves were too short (we knew, and were taking action), and that they were probably too short to be shod (fine, not interested! Boots being applied!). He was right in what he pointed out, but what really irritated me was his apparent inability to comprehend that I already knew all this, and was taking remedial action. If he were my regular vet, I think I would get a lot of resistance to even conversing about barefoot.

The most positive experiences have been with two younger vets. One is the pony's regular vet, and what impresses me about her is her willingness to acknowledge when she needs to find out more about a situation. There appears to be no ego at play whatsoever, and I think she's set to be a pretty formidable vet.

A thing that saddens me a bit is the knowledge that we always have something to prove: if we're successful, it will be seen as being despite being barefoot, and if we have problems, it will be seen as being because of being barefoot, never mind all the billion other things that could go wrong. It's a bit of pressure, thinking that you can't afford to lame out of a ride, because it might tarnish an image...thankfully, I'm generally too hapless to pay attention to such things until afterwards! :D
 
MontyandZoom said:
I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.
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You're going to be my vet right?!
I actually I think an element of this debate is rooted in the 'old school/new school' thing. My mum is a doctor who is v senior but qualified a million years ago. My sister is in her final year now, not even qualified yet. They sometimes disagree on things and its genuinely sometimes very hard to know which is better educated on a particular topic... My mum has vastly more experience but based on traditional thinking, but my sister knows the new research and latest thinking...and is definitely more open to new ideas.
By the same token, for some things an old experienced vet is better, for others, a younger more 'modern'(if that's the word?) vet would be better.

Luckily for you m&z, you will be a modern but OLD vet :-p best of both!
 
sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass. I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic. have no knowledge of barefoot technology, but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it. Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route. I still have nightmares about one little pony.
 
Freddie19 said:
sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass. I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic. have no knowledge of barefoot technology, but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it. Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route. I still have nightmares about one little pony.
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Lots of ponies are left unshod and so may not be "barefoot". Lots of people hate the term but I think it is needed to differentiate between just taking shoes off (being "unshod") and being "barefoot" which I think has a certain philosophy attached to it about management style. Hope that made sense. To me anyway as when I was growing up, unshod meant taking shoes off and sticking pony back in the field and not doing much with it apart from the odd hack in the fields.

It sounds to me as if these ponies are not "barefoot" but unshod or like you say, just jumped on the 'take the shoes off' bandwagon - barefoot is certainly NOT about that! No horse or pony should be in pain and these probably are because they are not given the care they need to cope on stones. Having said that, I have seen shod ponies do the same at some venues... so foot quality is a clear issue.

I will retract what I said earlier about not needing a study... reading the above post kind of makes me think that people do need to be guided by trustworthy sources if horses and ponies are not to suffer.

These are my thoughts, I know many people here do have perfectly brilliant working "unshod" horses but that is their prerogative and this is mine.
 
Freddie19 said:
have no knowledge of barefoot technology, but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it.
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But they don't.

Neither vets nor farriers have hardworking barefoot horses covered in their courses.

A farrier will only have experience during his training if the Master he is apprenticed to has them on his books. And most of them don't.

I have no idea why the horses and ponies you saw were hobbling on hardcore. I spent a fair part of this afternoon cantering over it. The ones you saw were not, in my book, barefoot. The term for me means horses and ponies who are doing work without shoes that it would be expected that they would need to wear shoes for.
 
MontyandZoom - I put up a question once - following lots of "my horse has navicular" threads. I said "I don't want a cure for navicular, I want to know how to stop my horse developing navicular in the first place."

Vets come in when there is a problem, want all owners want is to stop that problem happening. My horse is currently shod, but he had some time out of shoes and working and I am convinced that if he hadn't had that time out he would be lame by now because it improved his foot fall tremendously. I would watch him walk across the field and think that something wasn't right, but didn't know what it was. I know now that he was landing toe first instead of heel first.
 
Re the sore footed ponies, is there a chance they were without shoes in order to get under height?

And re horses not wanting to walk on stony/hard ground when there is an option available, unfortunately this is not uncommon in shod horses as well. Again, I am not saying one is better than the other but if a shod horse was reluctant to walk on a particular surface I don't think too many people would even suspect the shoes. ;)

Interestingly, as. COMPLETELY PERSONAL AND ANECDOTAL OBSERVATION, I have seen a few situations now where an apparent behavioural change has followed a shoeing change. Suddenly being unwilling to load is a particular link I've observed. Of course there is no way of knowing if the problem is linked to the progression of whatever necessitated the corrective shoeing but it's a question I always ask now when a new behaviour seems to have come out of nowhere. Recently a client's horse refused to stand at his usual place on the concrete slab outside the barn, out of the blue. It turned out that, unknown to the owner at that point, the horse had jumped out and spent the night in a rich, resting field. Back in his regular paddock the "disobedience" disappeared. . .

In another case a horse that turned out to have quite serious hoof pain (blocked out hopping) had been vetted by the treating vet originally and passed with flying colours, even though it was observed to be very reluctant to canter in a school, although less so in a straight line in a field. This was put down to "laziness" (partly due to breed type) and continued to be so in subsequent investigations until blocks were done.

I find it very hard to have discussions about these sorts of "behavioural" issues with most vets and, I have to say, I've had mostly very good relationships with the many vets I've dealt with over the years and respect them highly. The problem is most of us only know what we know and being an expert in one sphere does not make you one in another. I do find some vets are very reluctant to take anything on board that doesn't reflect what they've been taught and experienced.

Interestingly, I've often had vets be very sanguine about choices I've made for horses when they were far less so for less experienced clients. I would not want to be a vet though! Look how many people on here, for instance, are angry BECAUSE their vet has not told them what to do or been able to provide hard answers. They can't win! I look at vets like mechanics - they bring their expertise to a situation, other people bring different strengths. I'm not sure THEY always feel that way, although I have observed that many, absolved from the expectation of being "right/certain" are suddenly a bit more relaxed about the options.
 
MontyandZoom said:
I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size.

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.
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Have you chosen your dissertation subject yet? ;)
 
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