Vets, barefoot, evidence-based medicine...........

[tallyho!]

Related but as an aside *slightly* who are vets more inclined to help/support? Clients who seem to be leaning too much for support on subject matter or ones who are a bit more willing to self-educate?

If I were a vet, imagining myself in your shoes, I would say the latter because 1. there is no evidence either way; 2. I can't protect myself or my client if something goes wrong so being there almost as an observer would feel more comfortable.

I wish there were more vets like yourself M&Z. Good luck with your exams and you have many supporters... if you need some barefoot horses for your project, you know who to call

 

[amandap]

Can I just say how great a vet it sounds as though you are going to be Monteandzoom?

Seconded wholeheartedly.

I also fear that it is resulting in an absolute explosion in box rest for conditions that would be better kept moving, but that's another thread.

I so agree and this is one of my particular pet hates. Stressed, box walking (in tight circles) etc. so then sedated...
Whatever happened to risk management and devising a plan of care that is agreed, workable and less stressful for the horse and owner. Care planning should take into account all aspects ie. take account of the effects of interventions on the horse and particularly any negative impact.

ps. Thanks Obi one. x

 

[tallyho!]

Whatever happened to risk management and devising a plan of care that is agreed, workable and less stressful for the horse and owner. Care planning should take into account all aspects ie. take account of the effects of interventions on the horse and particularly any negative impact.

That's kind of why I chose a qualified trimmer over a farrier when I went barefoot. I felt like there was a plan based on what we had to work with and we were being cared about right from the very beginning. I started out like most people... a wreck at my wits end facing potential pts. This is what I think a lot of trimmers have to work with in the beginning.

I think the two big "schools of barefoot" have a lot to offer the veterinary profession if they would open up and listen.

 

[Alyth]

.

I would love to do a study.......but I am busy trying to pass vet school first [/QUOTE]""

I would love to know what was reccommended as treatment for the various forms of lameness etc....

 

[Hollycatt]

But they don't.

Neither vets nor farriers have hardworking barefoot horses covered in their courses.

This is not necessarily true. Maybe in the UK, but certainly not everywhere I should also be a 4th year vet student, however I dropped out of my degree as I could not afford my tuition fees. Once I win the lottery etc I will be back

Where I study as part of our degree we can choose a course called 'the horse in the farriers view'. I think its about 20 hours lectures and I am pretty sure the lecturer will be sympathetic to barefoot. I know a lot of horses here work hard barefoot. An hour outside the capital you can see mares with foal at foot pulling carts laden with produce/manure or whatever along the road in the summer. They are real working horses. Of course we also have sports horses too.

I also very much wanted to do my thesis on barefoot as most (but not all) my horses in the last 10 years have been barefoot and I have attended trimming courses and trimmed myself. Howver I took the easy way out and my thesis is finished and although on an entirely different topic hopefully is good enough to publish

If I ever get on that course and get back to uni I will let you know what they say and teach

 

[sarahann1]

http://abertay.summon.serialssoluti...ontentType,Journal+Article,&s.q=Horse+shoeing

There are a fair number of peer review papers available regarding shoeing, effects of shoeing etc. This is only a list from my own institutions subs which are limited by comparison to larger institutions.

 

[tallyho!]

Thanks Sarah. None of us can access them though as you need a password.

 

[saturdaygirl]

Hi MontyandZoom, really happy to have found this post as it echoes a lot of what I'm feeling at the moment!

I'm a final year student, with a really keen interest in barefoot management. I'm trying to read and find out as much as I possibly can, but as you say the lack of evidence based medicine (and the fact that remedial shoeing has been set a precedent in the treatment of so many lamenesses) makes me wonder how far I'm going to be able to get in recommending barefoot for lame horses in my career. At least early on in my career the very least I can hope is that I will be sympathetic vet and useful to those owners who are already barefoot - but the dream is to be able to confidently recommend shoes-off a management tool for navicular type injuries etc, and get more people managing horses barefoot as I really believe in it. In the end I did my dissertation on MRI of the digit, as I felt trying to do something barefoot-related was a total minefield. I'd be very interested in doing some of the barefoot courses though, and I've spent time seeing practice with an older vet who is VERY pro 'shoes off' and trims a lot of horses himself.

Do let me know if you get somewhere with finding ways of learning about barefoot and trimming, I'm a bit of a lurker on here but would be very interested.

 

[sarahann1]

Thanks Sarah. None of us can access them though as you need a password.

Unfortunately peer reviewed is very commonly hidden behind a pay wall. In this case you'd need a uni sub. But at least it shows that research is being done, even if it's not available to the man on the street.

 

[ester]

I have pretty full access although I have only tried to find stuff on shoeing pathological hooves previously rather than shoeing for soundness per se, I know that I wasn't that impressed with what I read a while ago, I might have a gander through your list if I get time.

 

[cptrayes]

I have pretty full access although I have only tried to find stuff on shoeing pathological hooves previously rather than shoeing for soundness per se, I know that I wasn't that impressed with what I read a while ago, I might have a gander through your list if I get time.

Ester if you do, and you can find a single one with serious numbers in the study (more than ten would help!) with an unshod control group then I will cheerfully eat my own hat

 

[cptrayes]

This is not necessarily true. Maybe in the UK, but certainly not everywhere

Errrrr - this is a UK based forum? What I wrote is true of the UK. The fact that it may not be where you live is of no help whatsoever to all of us who keep horses in Britain. Though I am glad it may be better elsewhere

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size.

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.

I am currently doing a study/dissertation into barefoot vs shoeing in terms of foot balance, soundness and performance

 

[amandap]

Ester if you do, and you can find a single one with serious numbers in the study (more than ten would help!) with an unshod control group then I will cheerfully eat my own hat

Hope it's a straw one... just in case

 

[MontyandZoom]

I am currently doing a study/dissertation into barefoot vs shoeing in terms of foot balance, soundness and performance

Please please let us know what you find out!! I'm sure there are loads of people who would be interested in the results x

 

[ester]

Is that a practical project BM or literature?

CP I'll keep in touch

 

[serenityjane]

My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Practical but I have looked at papers from both sides.

I am aiming to find around 20 shod and 20 barefoot horses to carry out measurements on. I am looking forward to the results

 

[Hollycatt]

Errrrr - this is a UK based forum? What I wrote is true of the UK. The fact that it may not be where you live is of no help whatsoever to all of us who keep horses in Britain. Though I am glad it may be better elsewhere

Yes, it is a UK based forum. I am a UK national. I have trained as a vet overseas as the tuition fees and cost of living in the UK were too high for me. I along with many of my peers will work in the UK on graduation. This is just one school. More and more vet schools throuout europe are offering English language degrees and more and more students priced out of the UK will study overseas and then return. I know many vets of all nationalities and from different vet schools worldwide working in the UK. So overseas education is very relevant as on some issues it is superior to UK vet education, in some areas woefully behind.

I am glad to see so many other students are looking at this issue and writing their thesis on it

 

[TigerTail]

My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.

Which vet school is that?! He shouldve complained and put forward endurance horses etc as egs

 

[cptrayes]

My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.

Please tell your son to appeal that mark. I and others would gladly provide him with evidence that shoes are not a necessity to hunt, event or do endurance on. Please PM me if I can assist, I have a ton of photographic evidence which would prove the point.

 

[cptrayes]

sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.

Can I ask how many of the horses and ponies you saw at that "very large show" were in show condition? In other words, fat ???? Because that's probably the number one cause of horses which cannot work without shoes.

 

[LucyPriory]

Can I ask how many of the horses and ponies you saw at that "very large show" were in show condition? In other words, fat ???? Because that's probably the number one cause of horses which cannot work without shoes.

I've worked on horses that go lame when fat and sound when a better weight. Not all owners get it and I can think of one in particular that would rather their horse was lami, shod and fat then slim and sound. Very sad

 

[tallyho!]

I've worked on horses that go lame when fat and sound when a better weight. Not all owners get it and I can think of one in particular that would rather their horse was lami, shod and fat then slim and sound. Very sad

Show pony?

 

[SusieT]

of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes, same as telling the man who won't feed his cats meat, the person who 'doesnt believe' in not having multiple litters of pups and all the other wacky things people come up with which are actually harmful. Not saying it is for all horses-but alternative treatments are not always successfull just because t hey are alternative..

 

[Goldenstar]

of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes, same as telling the man who won't feed his cats meat, the person who 'doesnt believe' in not having multiple litters of pups and all the other wacky things people come up with which are actually harmful. Not saying it is for all horses-but alternative treatments are not always successfull just because t hey are alternative..[/

Cats are carnivores , horses are not born with shoes on it does not really seem a comparison to me.
I still never understand why this subject stirs people up so much I am sure having three BF that most horses can do a certain level of work BF I am about to see how hunting goes we shall see ,if he's not coping I shoe him for the winter then pop them off again in March it's not like having a horse BF is like embracing a religion or something it's ok to dip in and out or if you want work the horse less to keep it at a level it's comfortable with if it suits your situation .
My OH's horse is shod he hunts him hard the horse spent the summer working without shoes or in boots his feet got a good rest from shoeing his heels improved and he got good heel first landing established he had a worrying toe first landing by the end of last season. I don't see having him in shoes any sort of failure in march he be straight out of shoes and spend the summer working BF using boots if necessary .
Why should this approach be controversial .

 

[cptrayes]

Cats are carnivores , horses are not born with shoes on it does not really seem a comparison to me.

 

[Clava]

sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass. I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic. have no knowledge of barefoot technology, but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it. Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route. I still have nightmares about one little pony.

You don't say if these ponies were shod or bare? At least if they were bare there are pre-laminitic symptoms that could be treated (footiness) which probably wouldn't be apparent if they were shod until it was too late.

 

[TigerTail]

of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes

I wouldn't mind being told that if I knew that the vet knew at least as much as I do about bf!!! When they dont, are not taught it on the syllabus and are actively discouraged from learning about it they do not have the right to tell me to put nails in my horses feet!

 

[Goldenstar]

I wouldn't mind being told that if I knew that the vet knew at least as much as I do about bf!!! When they dont, are not taught it on the syllabus and are actively discouraged from learning about it they do not have the right to tell me to put nails in my horses feet!

No Tiger Tail they no not ,vets should at least be opened minded ,however I fear that the attiude of some let's be clear I am lumping all vets together in this is governed by ego or even worse the fact there is very little money in it for the vets to approach issues the BF way.
Insurance is also an issue ( thankfully not for me) is a horse has caudal pain in the foot then the clock is ticking from the moment the vet first sees it that makes it difficult for a vet a say take off his shoes and lead him round for three months then we will take another look.
From the moment a vet sees a lame insured horse the time clock is ticking and they have x to spend in a set time frame before the issue becomes uninsured .