Vets errors - thank goodness i didnt listen

Foxhunter49 said:
Experience and an inner 'gut' feeling often needs listening to.
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i agree


i realised my hoppy dog was showing signs of HD.... i told my vets who x-rayed and missed it (my normal vets...not the referal ones!) They said she had wrist issues and nothing else......

2 years later after 2 referals they found she had HD and a couple of other issues....i knew that 2 years ago....:rolleyes:


2nd dog i knew had HD again - confirmed in a day....i didnt use the first vets to diagnose this - shockingly!!



gut instinct is sometimes better than vets opinions - we know our animals better than any vets!
 
Wanted to put the other side against perceived 'vet knocking'.

Riding a horse belonging to friends, we were hit from behind by a car with such impact that it threw us both onto the roof of said car. When I came round, the poor mare was standing with a wreck of an off hind swinging almost as if it was broken - the most ghastly mess. The vet we both used attended within half an hour, and came over to me where the paramedics were doing their stuff. I asked if the mare was going to be PTS - I was just beyond despair, as I loved here dearly and I also loved her owners, who had been fanstastic to me over the years. "You'll ride her again" he promised.

In the next few weeks a lot of know-it-all friends told me - and the owner - she should have been put down. The vet ignored them all and worked on with her - so did I. Ten months later I was able to ride her in a 25 mile pleasure ride. Four years later the family gave her to me, and I had several very happy years before she died, aged 22.

You can't be wise all the time........ but that time the prediction was spot on!
 
cinnamontoast said:
Sorry, should have mentioned, it's the horse with arthritis. And I don't care about cost, I just want my horse comfortable and various people (equine techs etc) have asked why the vet hasn't injected cortisone yet. It's my next question to my vet.
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Fair do's, but not a mistake, just not in the course of treatment yet, and owners should be able to question and suggest treatments. Cortisone injections are still painful, horse, dog or human. Like you say though ask them :)
 
Not aimed at anyone in particular but I reeaally hate the 'we know our animals better than vet do'. Doesn't mean you have veterinary experience, knowledge or even know what is best. You think you so, vets think they do and they have training to back up their thoughts. Experience doesn't count for everything or the world would be full of quacks instead of actual doctors and no-one would get a vet they would just ask the most experienced person around.

Not that I don't think that owners opinions and observations should come into it but really, balance people!
 
Rose folly how awful for you and poor mare, fantastic vets and you were able to perform what seems like a miracle, yes without vets we wouldnt have half of what we have if any at all. Its like our farriers we need to be able to have a two way conversation with them.

Wish i could edit my title to something different, made it in haste unfortunately.
 
Friends two horses last year, usually fairly good doers, lost a vast amount of weight, we tried shovelling copious amounts of feed in, more giving them free choice of what they wanted to eat, made no difference. The vets came out and had the cheek to make out they where being starved. We could not physically feed them any more!

Her friend who is also a vet came and said that they may have ulcers, recommended some medication for the gelding, they were turned out in good grazing for the rest of the winter... Wham bam, medication down, horses gaining weight. I understand vets can get it wrong, but having the cheek not listen and basically accuse of neglect. Most useless vet ever.
 
Batgirl said:
Not aimed at anyone in particular but I reeaally hate the 'we know our animals better than vet do'. Doesn't mean you have veterinary experience, knowledge or even know what is best. You think you so, vets think they do and they have training to back up their thoughts. Experience doesn't count for everything or the world would be full of quacks instead of actual doctors and no-one would get a vet they would just ask the most experienced person around.

Not that I don't think that owners opinions and observations should come into it but really, balance people!
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Yes but most of us do know our horses better than the vets. We notice every small difference in their behaviour, and that's what alerts us to call them out should we deem it necessary.
I will listen to the vet, but if I feel that something they are telling me should be questioned, then I will question it - I do not take their word as gospel.
My own vet who came out last year to my crippled elderly horse told me that he should be PTS. I didn't need to question that - I already knew that when the phone call was made to the vet what the outcome would be and I respect her knowledge and experience enough to know that she was right. I think a lot of it has to do with whether or not you are happy with your own vet - if I wasn't happy, I would change. I despise incompetence when I am paying a huge amount for a service.
 
I would question vets as I would doctors for myself. I do love my vets. I don't talk down to them nor do I pretend I know everything. And the only reason my story has a reference to "former" vet is because of the practice manager. We hadn't needed a vet in 6 months. Practice manager called me one day and asked me if I'd gone to another practice. She was quite short and it was weird. So I just ditched them all together. This after charging me twice for emergency surgery on my dog that didn't end up making it. And for charging me for an emergency call out that the practice did not attend. I had called when my filly foal had a leg broken in half above the hock. She was in a field with my husband laying on top of her and I needed a vet ASAP. 6 flipping vets and no one could get out there. Finally after 45 mins another vet came out and put filly down with no charge. I called and canceled the vets but because one was in route they charged me. I was a loyal customer for 5 years who paid her bills. Some tact and understanding would have been nice. I got the charge dropped but after the call basically accusing me of cheating on the practice, enough was enough.

Terri
 
Holly Hocks said:
Yes but most of us do know our horses better than the vets. We notice every small difference in their behaviour, and that's what alerts us to call them out should we deem it necessary.
I will listen to the vet, but if I feel that something they are telling me should be questioned, then I will question it - I do not take their word as gospel.
My own vet who came out last year to my crippled elderly horse told me that he should be PTS. I didn't need to question that - I already knew that when the phone call was made to the vet what the outcome would be and I respect her knowledge and experience enough to know that she was right. I think a lot of it has to do with whether or not you are happy with your own vet - if I wasn't happy, I would change. I despise incompetence when I am paying a huge amount for a service.
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I agree but people often use it as a catch all to say they know better, as you say you know about the differences in the behaviour, it is down to the vet to add that into the diagnosis mix and give an opinion, and as you say question it if you want to but knowing your horse better doesn't mean you know the diagnosis better. Well my horse had xyz symptoms and I had googled it so I knew it was such and such.... I know my horse better. That is what winds me up. Probably didn't explain that well :rolleyes:
 
First,

I don't have a problem with vets making mistakes, they are human after all.

But I have a HUGE problem with them writing off horses on the basis of damage to the navicular bone on xrays when they all know full well that this is a VERY poor indicator of lameness, never mind a justification to have a horse shot.

In spite of the fact that MRI scans are showing that almost all foot lame horses which block sound to the back half of the foot (caudal hoof lameness) will be lame because of SOFT tissue injuries, some vets are continuing to condemn horses without MRI scans on the basis of xrays.

There are many posts a year about this on this forum. It makes me mad :mad:


Second,

When so many people are willing to sue for mistakes, or even just bad luck, we cannot blame vets for taking an ultra-cautious route which may not actually be the most likely route to make the horse well, but is the most likely route to avoid them being sued if things don't turn out well.

This is, I think, why we have an explosion of box rest going on at the moment. I was told to box rest a horse with a cured infected leg earlier this year and I simply ignored the vet. The infection was gone. It didn't strike me as the most sensible way to manage the resulting stiff leg by leaving it standing still for the next ten days, which was what she wanted.
 
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putasocinit said:
Following on from some posts where the vet said it so i will do it, right or wrong, thought i wud start with 2 stories whereby if myself or my father listeed to the vet the horses would be dead.

Story 1 - 3yo tb filly gets leg caught in wire fencing pulls skin above fetlock on cannon bone down to fetlock like a sock, vet arrives says cant save PTS, my father tells him where to go softens the skin with liquid paraffin and a tight bandage, wound heals, barely a scar 5 months later, horse goes on to be an A grade sj later in life.

Story 2 - my tb 5yo filly knocks herself with end of shoe causing deep hole on inside of fetlock, clear fluid runs out, i speak to vet advises bandage, day 2 filly is really lame still clear fluid coming out, speak to vet says just bandage, keep clean, day 3 get another vet out who says she has a tendon sheath infection and has to drain it, 5 days ab's and 50% chance if will become sound again. Luckily she did.

I don't always trust the vet, anyone else got a story
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Wish I had read your story about a year ago.......I had a pony who did the exactly same thing, I did not even call the vet, but went straight to the Hunt and had her shot - it was a £10 pony, and I thought that the vet would try to save her, but it would cost us £1K+ and then probably would not work. We were gutted, as the pony that we had rescued was skin and bone when we bought her for a tenner - but was looking lovely some 4 months later - I only turned her out with the cattle, because my geldings were going bonkers, and did not expect her to find the one piece of wire in 40 acres of river fields - but she did - very tragic.
 
dressedkez said:
Wish I had read your story about a year ago.......I had a pony who did the exactly same thing, I did not even call the vet, but went straight to the Hunt and had her shot - it was a £10 pony, and I thought that the vet would try to save her, but it would cost us £1K+ and then probably would not work. We were gutted, as the pony that we had rescued was skin and bone when we bought her for a tenner - but was looking lovely some 4 months later - I only turned her out with the cattle, because my geldings were going bonkers, and did not expect her to find the one piece of wire in 40 acres of river fields - but she did - very tragic.
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I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. My understanding is that the blood supply to the skin on the leg comes in from the top and that any "skinning" downwards like that is unlikely to recover a blood supply. One fluke does not make the vet wrong in the original diagnosis.
 
How sad, it only takes a second for something to go wrong and them to injure themselves. But as another poster said, my situation could have gone the other way, but it was worth trying, obviously you are not going to do it if you dont know what you are doing but my father was a knowledgeable man, been with horses since he was a young boy, and in those days 50 or more vets werent graduating on a yearly basis.

Batgirl i think it is easier to write down what we wish we could do and say in real life, so one shouldnt take to heart everything that posters say, i don't believe for one minute that any poster on here is thinking they are more qualified than their vet, they are just starting to ask questions which in the old days folks didnt do.

Makes me laugh how others are the first ones to shout out "you are not a vet or you dont know more than your vet" when no one has actually stood up and said they know more than or are a vet. They just know their horses mixed in with a bit of common sense.
 
Cptrays have you seen the threads in veterinary lately where the horses leg got caught in the wire fencing well tht was skinning enough and yet look at the miraculous outcome. I suppose the healing of that is a fluke as well even with a vets help.
 
I agree with you a bit (re Vets, but only a bit) I used to use our GP Vets practice for the horses aka the cow vets........but now I tend to go for the expert horse vets - they know we are farmers, and deal with our horses in a pragmatic way - i.e. don't tend to tell us that the only way is surgery / expensive interventions, because they think we will go for it.......I have a lot of time for them, and they did a wind op on a racehorse very competitively for us.
I agree that some vets do tend to lack the 'horsemanship' skills that our elders have / had......but the same goes for riders / horse keepers as well. We do a lot of first aid for our horses, that would have less experienced people phoning the vet straight away - but that is good, not bad, as something neglected by the less experienced could result in mega trouble further down the line. I was being very pragamatic when I called the Hunt to my pony.....not experienced enough to know about the BP Jelly, but also not wanting to spend a fortune on possibly putting a vet in the position where he / she might want to try and save a pony, that I instinctively thought was past saving........
 
putasocinit said:
Cptrayes have you seen the threads in veterinary lately where the horses leg got caught in the wire fencing well tht was skinning enough and yet look at the miraculous outcome. I suppose the healing of that is a fluke as well even with a vets help.
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How many horses had similar injuries and didn't survive in spite of treatment?

How many went through weeks or months of pain before their owner agreed to throw in the towel?

How many lived but were never sound again (I know of several).

Two good outcomes does not mean that there were not also 1,000 horses left in pain.





I have gone back a month in Vet and I cannot find what you are referring to, can you point me to it? If you mean this one, the example is not relevant. The leg has not been skinned and peeled like a sock, it has just been cut across and will fill in well with granulation tissue over time. It's perfectly normal for horses to survive injuries like this, nasty as they look. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=571506&highlight=wire






P.S.Why does ANYONE keep horses in fields fenced with unprotected wire?
 
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Crazy, wire fencing, back home in africa, barbed wire is the norm. But thats been stolen now to be melted down for something or other, so now there is no fencing!
 
Batgirl said:
Not aimed at anyone in particular but I reeaally hate the 'we know our animals better than vet do'. Doesn't mean you have veterinary experience, knowledge or even know what is best. You think you so, vets think they do and they have training to back up their thoughts. Experience doesn't count for everything or the world would be full of quacks instead of actual doctors and no-one would get a vet they would just ask the most experienced person around.

Not that I don't think that owners opinions and observations should come into it but really, balance people!
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I agree with this.

Vets, just like doctors, make mistakes sometimes, they are only human. But in the majority of cases they do make the right judgements. It does worry me that some people don't listen to vets in some cases.

I came across someone once who's cat had been in an rtc, and paralysed on the back end. It was completely incontinent and couldn't even drag itself anywhere without getting sores all over it's body. Owner had taken it to the vet, who advised pts, but she refused and took it home. It was laying in it's own pee and crap and clearly distressed. She believed it was kinder to let the cat live and that the vet's prognosis was incorrect. :mad:
 
Moomin1 that is just bloody cruel, i dont believe any horse owners will let their horses be in that state. I hope you have called the RSPCA clearly it is a case of abuse.

You cannot tar all owners with the same brush. All treatments and diagnosis a vet was called out and in attendance, the owner just didnt agree with the vets diagnosis. If i had listened to my vet my filly would have been lame for life, he was not a hamster vet either, thank goodness i got a second opinion.

I think it is important to realise that no posters are diagnosing an illness or treating it, they are simply questioning the vets diagnosis and suggesting alternative therapy, why is that wrong.

The world is advancing and so is its horse owners, we have left the old way of doing things behind us.
 
I work with my vet when dealing with my horses, we debate situations, i feel happy to question and discuss stuff, and we decide treatment together.
The outcome isnt always down to the vet, poor hygiene and technique when dealing with wounds can change an outcome even with antibiotics.
And as other posters have said, they do know their horses better, most good vets will agree with that statement, but that doesnt mean they dont need the diagnostic services of a vet. If there is a systemic issue with no visable cause, it may be subtle changes in the horses behaviour that flag up the problem, a good vet will always listen to the owner while making their diagnosis.
Vets are human and errors will be made, it doesnt always mean the vet is a bad vet, it may simply mean that following a set of signs and symptoms has lead to 1-2 possible diagnoses, and theyve then got to decide which one to go with, i appreciate a vet who will discuss the choices with me then we decide which route to take.
There will always be times when people go against vets advice, and thats their perogitive, to my mind, the vet when treating is saying "this is my clinical opinion and i can treat accordingly " it is then our choice to listen, or not as the case may be.
 
Happily, my vets have never advised PTS too soon but have 'missed' conditions which were not then, but now are, very much in the veterinary eye.

EMS and Cushing's were missed in two of mine - one which was finally diagnosed by a vet looking at something else (which, ironically, her own vet had diagnosed correctly but had miraculously and happily spontaneously resolved) and my learning curve was stratospheric.

Normally, they are spot on, if a trifle negative at times! This works fine when the condition is less serious and the incident hasn't required immediate euthanasia!
 
I find modern vets are unwilling to educate me, they think the more they say the less they will be needed, which may be true.
After three months of strangles, the vet told me not to bother feeding my horse [I phoned up because I was not happy with him] as he would be fine on grass alone, feeding had not been mentioned at all, but I think it is self evident that a sick horse needs supplementation more than a healthy one, as the appetite is limited and the needs are important.
I am pretty experienced with horses and know when to call out a vet, especially after a converstion with one nippy receptionist....... who was the owner [irrelevent as the horse is a racehorse in training]. How would payment be made..... well by the normal methods.
She went thru a load of colic symptoms, the answer to all her Q's was no: sweating, kicking, looking at belly,
Well she said how on earth do you know he has colic.
Well I said, he is lying on the ground, rolling eyes.

Impaction colic ..............mild symtpoms which need a rapid response from a vet!
 
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Not with a horse, but with my dear old cat. She collapsed in the garden, and then her behaviour seemed to indicate that a) she had had a stroke, and b) she had gone suddenly and totally blind. I rushed her to the vet and asked him to PTS straight away, she was in the most terrible distress, it was heartbreaking to see. The vet disagreed! Said he didn't think she had gone blind, despite her behaviour. I allowed him to persuade me to leave her there under observation overnight. In the morning he phoned and told me what I already knew - that my cat was blind and probably brain damaged. I shall always regret not listening to my own instincts, and thus allowing the poor creature to suffer for another 24 hours.
 
vickyb said:
Not with a horse, but with my dear old cat. She collapsed in the garden, and then her behaviour seemed to indicate that a) she had had a stroke, and b) she had gone suddenly and totally blind. I rushed her to the vet and asked him to PTS straight away, she was in the most terrible distress, it was heartbreaking to see. The vet disagreed! Said he didn't think she had gone blind, despite her behaviour. I allowed him to persuade me to leave her there under observation overnight. In the morning he phoned and told me what I already knew - that my cat was blind and probably brain damaged. I shall always regret not listening to my own instincts, and thus allowing the poor creature to suffer for another 24 hours.
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Exact same thing happened to us!! Although cat did not collapse, it was clear she had very suddenly started to suffer. We decided it was best to PTS. The vet said no!! While I didn't want to kill my dearest kitty, I knew she was in pain. I feel they used my emotions to sway me into keeping her alive. She only lasted a week before we really knew it was her time. I was thankful that I got one last wonderful day in the sun with her, but I regret not fighting for her :(

However, my dog had 2 strokes and the vet suggested PTS. We knew she wasn't ready, even though it wasn't a fun experience for her. A couple of years later, she's still going strong :) So glad I didn't have her put down!
 
My previous vet practise had a very skilled horse vet and regularly took on newly qualified (NQ) vets but who though lacking in experience were over confident in their own skills. I in my own ignorance accepted their version of the truth.
Tale 1: We bought a mare as a companion who was in foal. This was to be our first foal so when it was born in our stable at home I asked for a vet to come, check all was well, and do whatever. NQ vet attended and I explained the situation, particularly that she’d given birth slightly early and unattended. A fortnight later, the mare was apparently discharging from the backend: - the afterbirth had been retained and I had to haul the lot out. NQ had made no check. Luckily there were no long term consequences but senior vet came out to check on progress at no charge a couple of times. Moral: check for completeness of afterbirth yourself. I hadn’t appreciated there was one let alone how big it was! If greater than 24 hours delay talk with good vet pdq for advice. There are real risks involved.
Tale 2: Mare returned from stud and was soon apparently no longer in foal. Emboldened by success of first mare and foal, we bred from another mare 3 times. No 1 and No 3 were uneventful but No 2... she returned from stud having been scanned as in foal. We thought all was well but did as advised, and had her scanned again soon afterwards to ensure she was not expecting twins. The check was lengthy because the mare was acting in the same way as she had done during her first pregnancy i.e. docile and no seasons and I felt sure she was still pregnant. However NO Pregnancy was found. Accordingly she went out on loan for a year with a view to returning to the same stud the following year. A few months later the same NQ vet who did the scan visited the loaner’s sister’s horse and casually asked when their new mare was going to give birth? Following the reply “but you said she wasn’t pregnant” both vet and loaner rang me. She was 4 weeks away from giving birth, had been out jumping most week-ends and understandably had not been fed ready for the impending event. Needless to say she came home within 48 hours and was fed stud cubes every meal time until giving birth 10 days early. Mare and foal were fine, no harm done, amazingly. We, on the other hand, had a problem as we’d booked a foreign holiday for the exact week the foal was due as we had thought it was a good opportunity to leave our other two at grass with friends and unsurprisingly cancellation for horse giving birth was not covered by our insurance policies. The vet, who was very apologetic and a horse owner herself, solved that for us by coming down to the house 3 times a day in her own time to tend the mare and foal the whole time we were away. Moral: a) if you think a mare is pregnant, she probably is b) if you let the vet know what the problems are that their action has caused, they might just be willing and able to help you find a solution.
 
I just lost my cat last week the same way. I was doing dishes, heard her let out a weird meow, she collapsed. She was all contorted and let out meows all the way to the vet. We asked for her to be put down and they were brilliant. Done straight away. No point in putting her through anything more. We had a wonderful 11 years with her. I told my husband to then take her out to the car while I paid. Both of us were in bits, but this was hubby's cat and it really really got to him. If you ever met my husband you wouldn't think him a big softee, but he's dreadful. When our GSD dog died 6 years ago he went to England for a few days to check on the racehorses. Horses the exact same.

Terri
 
I think most vets do an amazing job. Animals can't talk which makes things incredibly more difficult. At vet school they have to learn to treat so many different animals making it almost impossible to remember anything but the most common ailments. The rest has to be learnt over many years and all while trying to keep up with all the new diagnostics and treatments

They are human and make mistakes like anyone else. A lot comes down to opinion when diagnostics are yet to be done

I have 5 stories
First was a good fee years ago. Had a sec s with stifle lameness. Vet said to work him through it. I just couldn't do it, too me it was getting worse not better. Now I probably should have called him and told him he was getting worse. But he also made me feel intimidated. Another vet called and he said box rest, Liverpool. Turns out he had a bone cyst.
Now at first I was mad at the first vet for missing it However in hindsight the 2nd vet had the additional info that working him had made him worse

Second. This is When little was known about EPSM. In hindsight to what we know now he showed some classic symptoms. Bloods were completely normal so vet ruled out any muscle problems. I had an Internet friend in the US who worked at an equine vets ans it was she who convinced me that I had to persuade vet to do biopsy. She put me in touch with Beth valentine who gave me info to print out and give to vet. I left it with a letter at the practice. Within a couple if hours he had rang to
See when I wanted it done :). Sample was sent to Newmarket who had no idea what they were really doing at that time and just wanted to know if horse had just come back from the gallops. At
My request sample was sent to the US to Beth. She diagnosed EPSM. With diet changes I had a few more years with him

Third. Lame horse on right fore. Sent to Leahurst. On full lameness work up while I was there he actually showed lameness in 3/4 limbs worse on RH worse. PSD diagnosed. I queried treating just the hind when there was obviously a big problem on RF too. But was ta have to fix one first. I asked if they could be related in more than a compensatory way. Was told no. End result was that he did have degenerative ligament disease and should never have been out through the surgery. I lost him 6 months ago :(

Fourth. poorly horse. Temp and lethargic. It was out of hours and my own vets only had a cow vet on call. I called another practice and they sent a horse vet. He was amazing. Horse had a really bad virus. Vet gave antibiotic injection 3 days running and called me several times a day including 10pm checks. He
Was the same vet who eventually diagnosed the one that had surgery

When it came time to vet new horse he also vetted him. However things weren't
Straight forward and we had a few problems which he found were due to foot balance
Then he started bucking, vet tried to blame my riding and said I should have lessons off the pro I bought him off. I was convinced horse had ulcers. I knew this vet was going on holiday the following week so got another one in the practice to come and scan him. Sure enough he had grade 2 ulcers. So despite him being an excellent vet he didn't listen and was proved wrong
 
putasocinit said:
Oh dear, yes they are human and we all make mistakes, qualified or not. So thanks to vets for being there.
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Well said - I'm very pleased I've got the service of a very good equine practice, and they do a very good job, also they don't seem to mind me asking lots of questions (which I know must be very annoying!).
 
I think this thread is very unfair. These people give up 7 years of their life to be a qualified vet and this is how they are repaid.... We all mistakes in the workplace and I'm sure the burden of making the wrong decisions weighs heavy on their shoulders. The last thing I would do if something went wrong with my horse is point the finger at someone who has tried their best and obviously not purposely made a mistake.
 
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