Vets - how much do you trust them?

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darkhorse123

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A good horsey friend of mine warned me today to always remember vets are "half vets, half salespeople"

Ive only ever - up to now - dealt with vets with my dogs and must say I agree with her.

so do you?

Do you think vets always have the animals interests at heart or do you think some can and do reccomend unneccessary meds or procedures for either profit or even experimental purposes ?
 
good and bad really.
took the stray cat in last week and basicly had him whipped away and castrated without really getting much say in it!!! £96 castrated and jabbed. I was gutted and the cat couldn t have been that happy either.
I also think it s amazing how exspensive courses of treatment usually cost exactly the same as the horse is insured for, And also half a call out charge costs more than half of a full call out charge. Some of the excuses for that were really poor last time it was discussed on here!
 
I don't think there are any unscrupulous ones, I do think generally it makes a difference if they know you are insured or not. I also think to be fair, they are not going to risk offering expensive treatment if you are not insured because I am certain there would be some owners who would go into debt to try to mend their beloved animals rather than pts. Of course then that leaves the vet open to default on the payment and they will not want to have to recover lots of unpaid bills.
 
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I trust my horse vets but not so much the ones I have used for dogs over the years.

2 really good examples. My 18 year old deaf blind retriever cross collapsed at the back end. I took him and asked for him to be PTS (hardest decision ever) they made me feel like a murderer and talked me into keeping him going another 6 months on steroids and good knows what. Nice big bills for them, 6 months of no quality of life for me and dog.

Little whippet, heart problem, very old went downhill fast. Once again I asked to PTS, vets said pulling her teeth out would cure her, again I was talked into it. They took bloods but didn't wait for the results, did operation, she was sent home to us still bleeding. Took her back in the middle of the night, 2 transfusions and god knows what later I insisted she was PTS. When the bloods came back her blood wasn't clotting. Again big bill for me and suffering for the poor dog and us.

I suppose I should use the horse vets for the dogs but they are a long way away. Anyway our latest spaniel is with yet another vets. Trouble is you dont find out whether you can trust them until you are in one of the situations above and then its too late.
 
muff747 said:
I don't think there are any unscrupulous ones, I do think generally it makes a difference if they know you are insured or not. I also think to be fair, they are not going to risk offering expensive treatment if you are not insured because I am certain there would be some owners who would go into debt to try to mend their beloved animals rather than pts. Of course then that leaves the vet open to default on the payment and they will not want to have to recover lots of unpaid bills.
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see (and im not having a go just wondering) - whether you are insured or not should make no difference if they have the animals true welfare at heart -

when my animal is ill - dog or horse - i dont want him to have uneccesary tests or medication - neither would i want his suffering prolonged if its kinder to pts straight away

We shoudl be able to trust vets 100% - trust them to put our animals welfare first - im just not sure i can trust this always happens :(
 
darkhorse123 said:
see (and im not having a go just wondering) - whether you are insured or not should make no difference if they have the animals true welfare at heart.
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It doesn't make any difference if you can afford to pay for it yourself. If vets provided expensive treatment for free for the sake of animal welfare there wouldn't be many vets left in business in 6 months time.
 
Vets are humans and I trust them as much as I trust any other human who can make mistakes or, much less often, deliberately run up bills. The internet is a wonderful tool and I do a huge amount of research on any problems that my horses or any of my friend's horses are treated for.

In my experience, younger vets who need billings to make Partner are the most likely to do stuff that isn't really required, like give you antibiotics for a foot abscess or insist on x-raying an open draining abscess where the horse is getting sounder every day. There was a case on here a couple of years back where the vet did a full lameness workup on a horse with an open abscess that was getting sounder - but the shoe was still off one front foot :eek: !

I must stress that I think deliberate unnecessary treatment is not that common, but if in doubt, ask for a Partner because he/she will have nothing to prove to "the boss". And question and question again until you are happy.

I find the big hospitals have big machines and like to use them. A friend of mine used a hospital which put her horse through a scintigraph last Autumn and only after that did the hospital nerve block the leg he was lame in and had always been lame in. They certainly saw the insurance coming on that one :( As a result I would no longer trust that hospital and if a horse of mine ever has to go there I will be making myself a complete pain in the neck with the amount of detail I will insist that they go into to explain to me what they plan to do.

On the other hand, some owners get what they deserve at times. Far too many people are asking their vets to "do everything you can" to save horses which should really be put to sleep.

I guess what I'm saying is be reasonable in both directions. Vets are humans too :)
 
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I trust the vet I use now quite a lot, she seems to understand that I will do my own research and that I have my own views on things and I think she's the first vet I've ever had that listens to what I have to say. i find that some vets have a slightly arrogant 'i've been to vet school therefore I know better than you do' attitude and whilst I agree that they have the qualifications I see my horse at least twice a day every day and that makes my knowledge highly relevant too!
 
I have yet to meet a vet who recommends treatments on the basis they will have big bills associatied.
remember from an owners point of view, it is often an unsuccessful treatment that is then considered 'expensive' as there was no benefit-something you don't know until you do the treatment.
How is it arrogatn to have a I've studied the animal in depth for 5 years so know more than you attitude? Owners think the most mundane thing is relevant..Like popsy breaking wind 3 years ago.
All owners want cut price 5* treatment and I'm sorry but it isn't going to happen. Vet care is different to human care, you can't just try everything as finance is such a big deal. There are bad vets out there, like in any world.
 
'Originally Posted by darkhorse123 View Post
see (and im not having a go just wondering) - whether you are insured or not should make no difference if they have the animals true welfare at heart.'
You may want to pay for the expensive treatment but the truth is the majority of people who haven't bothered to insure don't/can't afford the expensive treatment so it reveals a mindset and is much more straightforward for the vet.
 
Ive never had a vet that I didnt trust ,but then Ive never used a vet that I couldnt trust. But then I also have to trust my own judgement. I expect any vet to be able to give me a very sound argument about any procedure envisaged. The trouble is that the average punter possibly doesnt have the necessary scientific background to see the wood from the trees.In the end , If your inner instinct is telling you that a vet is blowing smoke up your arse , change vets.
 
I completely agree with Mike007. If I had doubts about a vet, I wouldn't use them. I've had a bad horse experience in the past - too long to go into - and I now wouldn't trust that vet to treat even a stick insect. But I'm so so fortunate that I'm with a specialist equine practice now. They know their stuff and their commitment to each and every horse is exemplary. I couldn't wish for better advice and treatment if my horses belonged to them. However, as Mike007 points out, they are human beings too, and I'm glad they are because they cry with the owners on every sad and hopeless case. Yes, sometimes a procedure or treatment may be POSSIBLE but the $64,000 question is whether it should be undertaken. As owners, I think it is beholden on every one of us to be as informed as we can so that we can talk over POSSIBILITIES with our vets. My 27 year old horse is beginning to have quality of life issues that, so far, are relatively easily controlled. But I've already had the conversation with my vets that I'm a fully paid up member of the Better A Week Too Early Than A Day Too Late Club. I'm absolutely delighted to report that they all are too. Be guided by your own instincts and if you feel that a suggested POSSIBLE treatment isn't right for your animal, say so and stick quietly and calmly to your guns. Sometimes, it's hard for a vet to start such a conversation off so trust them and talk all the options through before you reach a decision.
 
I can see it from 2 different perspectives as I am a mature vet student who has used a lot of vets for horses, dogs, cats etc before going to vet school. As others have said, junior vets will be under instructions from the partners to push for bread and butter treatments such as vaccinations that may not be necessary for the animal in question, but has very little chance of doing any harm. Its also worth remembering there are a lot of people at vet school that are not what you would really call animal lovers - they find it an interesting job and enjoy science but actually doing it for the welfare of an animal isn't really their goal. Therefore they may be very business orientated - but may also be excellent clinicians and aware of the clients needs. It can be a thankless job in many ways - owners with a sick pet are understandably very stressed and upset and can be very unpleasant to deal with. On the other hand I personally think it can be an amazing job.

I DO think in all circumstances, that vets should give owners enough information to enable them to make an informed choice for THEIR pet and should not guilt trip people about their decision for their animal. That is very wrong in my opinion.
 
I think owners are as much to blame as the vets - Te fear of bad feedback for "the vet didn't do enough" will always push the vet to do more than less.

As does the vets having an interest in a case for learning purposes.

I've gone through a few vets, and only have one particular person now from a large equine practice. I'm under no illusions he is perfect, but he respects that I know my pony best so that when I say there is something wrong, he believes me. When you have a horse with a complex disease like pemphigus, I found the vets are often as much in the dark as the owners. He is fully supportive of my choices to manage her, even of he doesn't believe in herbal remedies. I don't know how I would feel dealing with an emergency "run of the mill" problem such as tendon or colic which I have very little knowledge of to have preference over treatment options.
 
I sometimes think that many hold preconceived ideas of vets, which are some way from reality.

With the odd exception, vets are not "animal lovers". They are not running charities, they are in business to earn a decent living, and having spent many years at University, they view their living as pay-back.

Very rarely will a vet recommend the humane destruction of an animal, when there is still room within an insurance claim to make money. It's surprising how often, when an insurance claim is reaching it's end, so does the life of the animal. Animals which are not insured will all so often reach a humane end, before their insured companions. Vets can't be blamed for this, because running the risk of non-payment, isn't the way to succeed in business. They will be very well aware that through the trauma of an emergency, owners will all so often agree to anything, and then face the shock of massive bills, in the cold light of day.

Do I trust my vet? Of course I do, but it takes time for that trust to be built up. Others may have different experiences of vets, but as the legal profession, I've yet to meet a philanthropist amongst them!! ;)

Alec.
 
There are some vets I trust and others that I no longer trust. For example we ended up forking out £8k for chemo for a dog that I believe was wrongly diagnosed. They said it was lymphoma and that the treatment would give him at least another 10 months of quality life. It turned out he had a brain tumor. They said it was secondary, but I think it was primary and he suffered a further 8 weeks of agony and we had to insist really strongly in the end that he was PTS. Poor thing could not lie down or put his head down. He stood for 3 days holding his head up. They wanted to do more treatment! It makes me weep every time I think about that lovely dog. He was only 4 years old and he suffered SO much. The vets got £8 k out of it but it is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I am in tears now even thinking of it.
 
I guess it just goes down to your own experiences with them and from mine, I am fairly trusting of dog vets and not so much on the horse front. It seems to me that horse vets have an 'in thing' to diagnose your horse with. For example, a few years back, it was shockwave therapy. My pony had lameness problems so were talked into this fantastic new shockwave therapy which he had to no effect. within the space of a month, there were two or three other horses at the yard who had also been offered this fantastic treatment. after no success from this, they reccommended to all of us (all with different types of lameness) that we have the ligaments cut...eerrrr no thank you very much!!!!
 
I'm lucky enough to have a fantastic vet who I'd trust as much as I'd trust anybody. I still feel that it's up to the owner to keep themselves as well informed as possible, though, and not allow themselves to be guided blindly by any professional. I haven't had much experience of non-equine vets, however.
 
darkhorse123 said:
see (and im not having a go just wondering) - whether you are insured or not should make no difference if they have the animals true welfare at heart -

when my animal is ill - dog or horse - i dont want him to have uneccesary tests or medication - neither would i want his suffering prolonged if its kinder to pts straight away

We shoudl be able to trust vets 100% - trust them to put our animals welfare first - im just not sure i can trust this always happens :(
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You are talking about the ideal world, but the new training for vets is that they must ask if the horse is insured so they can adjust treatment accordingly, in some ways this sounds ridiculous, but as they don't really know the client , it helps them, for example the person may say, not insured because I can't afford it, or not insured because I can afford it, so your vet can have some idea of his client.
Most seem unable to say PTS, I know one local practice who sent a thin, doubly incontinent cat home, it was obviously dying, no use "blaming" the owner who was a very shy elderly person [I offered to take the cat to vet for him when I saw the state it was in, never thinking it would come back], he obviously was relying on the vet to act in a professional way, I could go on and on about this practice, but I won't, well just the story about the dog that got moved three times in one night after a major operation [its last night].
 
Miss L Toe said:
Most seem unable to say PTS, I know one local practice who sent a thin, doubly incontinent cat home, it was obviously dying, no use "blaming" the owner who was a very shy elderly person [I offered to take the cat to vet for him when I saw the state it was in, never thinking it would come back], he obviously was relying on the vet to act in a professional way, I could go on and on about this practice, but I won't, well just the story about the dog that got moved three times in one night after a major operation [its last night].
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I may be wrong but I thought it was policy for a vet to leave it up to the owner to decide 'the right time'. I have never had a vet reccommend PTS where there are other options available no matter how small the impact they are likely to have. I agree though, I think a lot of owners need to be told by a professional thats enough is enough.
 
Im very happy with my vet practise, and yes I do trust the vets I use.
Although there is one vet there that I dont much like and wouldnt really trust, so I ask that he doesnt come out to me.
 
I would not use a vet I didn't trust. I have in the past had a couple of incidents with a practice which meant I lost all faith in them, I changed to another practice straight away. I have complete faith in the practice I am with now, I am slightly wary when they take on a new vet but have always been prepared to give them time, secure in the knowledge that I can always ask them to refer me to one of the senior partners if I am not happy. Re pts, a vet has never recommended pts but I like to think I know my animals well enough to make the decision when it is needed, in every case where I have felt the time has come the vet hasn't queried my decision.

ETS I'm not disagreeing that some vets are out to make money. There is a practice near to me that seems to charge high prices and sometimes offer unnecessary treatments. As just one example a friends lab recently damaged his cruciate, this practice quoted £3000, when told this wasn't possible as dog wasn't insured they were then offered a different operation at a cost of £800. She actually took the dog to the practice I use where the op was carried out for £500.
 
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I trust my vet, he's always got everything right with my boy even up to diagnosing ringbone & getting him operated on - he was sure of a successful outcome & he was right so really cant knock him at all. I've also called him before when my horse was showing strange behaviour when being girthed, he checked him over & said he could scan but he felt it was a waste of money so I got a physio out & turned out to be a strained muscle.. so can't say that he likes to scan/ x-ray for any little thing. I do however think that vets 'love' an operation & there are no doubt vets out there who are in it for the cash!
 
Alec Swan said:
I sometimes think that many hold preconceived ideas of vets, which are some way from reality.

With the odd exception, vets are not "animal lovers". They are not running charities, they are in business to earn a decent living, and having spent many years at University, they view their living as pay-back.

Very rarely will a vet recommend the humane destruction of an animal, when there is still room within an insurance claim to make money. It's surprising how often, when an insurance claim is reaching it's end, so does the life of the animal. Animals which are not insured will all so often reach a humane end, before their insured companions. Vets can't be blamed for this, because running the risk of non-payment, isn't the way to succeed in business. They will be very well aware that through the trauma of an emergency, owners will all so often agree to anything, and then face the shock of massive bills, in the cold light of day.

Do I trust my vet? Of course I do, but it takes time for that trust to be built up. Others may have different experiences of vets, but as the legal profession, I've yet to meet a philanthropist amongst them!! ;)

Alec.
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My thoughts too Alec!
 
Id trust my vet to make the right decision for my horse if i wasnt able to do so (injured/coma/dead!!!!) he's a horseman, he competes, and when i called him at 7am in floods of tears telling him to bring his kit to PTS my mare he knew i was decided and helped me every step of the way. he never made me feel that i made the wrong decision and explained every thing he did and what would happen to her.

He has never asked if the horses are insured, is always fair with the bill, and understands that we all have to work and is happy to pop to the yard and see to my horses if i cant be there. I do suspect he's a bit of a rare breed though!

and most importantly to me- he has a real love for horses, and my horses adore him!! :D
 
katastrophykat said:
Id trust my vet to make the right decision for my horse if i wasnt able to do so (injured/coma/dead!!!!) he's a horseman, he competes, and when i called him at 7am in floods of tears telling him to bring his kit to PTS my mare he knew i was decided and helped me every step of the way. he never made me feel that i made the wrong decision and explained every thing he did and what would happen to her.

He has never asked if the horses are insured, is always fair with the bill, and understands that we all have to work and is happy to pop to the yard and see to my horses if i cant be there. I do suspect he's a bit of a rare breed though!

and most importantly to me- he has a real love for horses, and my horses adore him!! :D
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wow hes not near leeds is he? :D
 
SusieT said:
'Originally Posted by darkhorse123 View Post
see (and im not having a go just wondering) - whether you are insured or not should make no difference if they have the animals true welfare at heart.'
You may want to pay for the expensive treatment but the truth is the majority of people who haven't bothered to insure don't/can't afford the expensive treatment so it reveals a mindset and is much more straightforward for the vet.
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I don't ' bother' to Insure because when my horse is injured or sick any decision I take is between me and the horse no insurance company influencing me.
It has nothing to do with mindset and nothing to do with money.
I think vets ask you the are you insured question as they then think oh well we can send up to x before any one worrys.
My friend said to me the other day she could take hers into the vets withits leg cut off and they would ask is it insured before doing an X-ray and a MRI scan to check if the keg was there.
 
I think there are certainly vet's practise's out there who will screw you for every penny that the insurance covers...
 
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