Vetting an older horse

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wingedhorse

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Hi,

I am having an 11 year old horse that has show jumped, and done dressage vetted. Been in same home doing dressage last 5 years competing medium, schooling advanced medium. Has clean legs and verified clean vet history. Second time I rode horse, he'd been stabled for 16 hours and I rode him straight from stable, and seemed same as ridden from field.

I am having full vetting, and x-rays Monday morning.

I would like to do medium / advanced medium dressage and lots of hilly hacking with the horse.

I am aware with his background and age you might expect to see some arthritic changes / he might not perfectly pass flexion / there might be some wear to suspensories.

I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts or advice in relation to the shades of grey as to what wear and tear is acceptable, and what is walk away from?

I booked a good vet (senior equine partner) that I have had conversation with before vetting. But I am new to practice and vet as long way from home.

I am nervous because it is more money than I have ever spent on a horse, there is the argument, if he's stayed sound in a reasonable level of work for last 7 years he's hopefully going to stay sound a bit longer? Or he might have starting of arthritic issues that mean he's towards to end of his competing life?
 
Be sure to tell the vet what exactly you want in the Horse and your future hopes as this will give them a basis for the vetting and determine their final recommendation for suitability. Get bloods too.
 
Many years ago I was advised to only xray an older horse if there were clinical signs to do so otherwise you potentially find things and have no idea whether they are an issue or not as you have nothing to compare them with, also where do you stop with the diagnostics, if you are prepared to buy anyway I would do a 5 stage, ideally be there to see what goes on and xray if there is a question mark that is not an absolute fail, that is unless your insurance company insists on them.

As to what is acceptable I would want it to fully pass the vetting, 11 is the time when they can start to show signs of wear and tear and I don't see much point in having a vetting done if you are not going to go with the advice given by the vet, that said I did buy one once that "failed" and he proved to be totally sound as my gut had told me passing a full vetting several years later with no issue.
 
equi said:
Be sure to tell the vet what exactly you want in the Horse and your future hopes as this will give them a basis for the vetting and determine their final recommendation for suitability. Get bloods too.
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Thanks done this, and will reinterate on the morning and spoken to my local vet re his thoughts. He reckoned suspensory wear more of a risk than hock wear and tear. The positive is I am not expecting more from the horse than he is already comfortable doing.
 
I dont class 11 as an older horse, and would expect he/she to pass a 5 stage vetting. the key thing is communication with the vet, explain any concerns you may have, and also what you intend to do with the horse. Id Xray if the horse was over £10k, I'm sure insurance companies want xrays if the horse is worth a certain amount anyway. Good luck
 
be positive said:
Many years ago I was advised to only xray an older horse if there were clinical signs to do so otherwise you potentially find things and have no idea whether they are an issue or not as you have nothing to compare them with, also where do you stop with the diagnostics, if you are prepared to buy anyway I would do a 5 stage, ideally be there to see what goes on and xray if there is a question mark that is not an absolute fail, that is unless your insurance company insists on them.

As to what is acceptable I would want it to fully pass the vetting, 11 is the time when they can start to show signs of wear and tear and I don't see much point in having a vetting done if you are not going to go with the advice given by the vet, that said I did buy one once that "failed" and he proved to be totally sound as my gut had told me passing a full vetting several years later with no issue.
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I am mainly insuring for vet fees, rather than hoping to insure purchase price so no insurance do not require x-rays. I think I’d like to x-ray hocks and feet but I am swinging on this view. I think I cannot have once in lifetime chance to spend this much and not have x-rays? Perhaps biased as a friend a few years back had something catastropic show up on x-rays in a vetting with no idea it was there. Horse became worthless and did subsequently develop clinic signs. I am very aware that both x-rays and scans can be very misleading versus clinical signs. I had a fairly long conversation with the vet doing the vetting, and he said generally didn’t x-ray if nothing presented to make think should and wasn’t essential for insurance.

I have every intention of going with the advice of the vet. But my understanding is that higher mileage older horses, the vetting tends to find stuff and tends to be shades of grey. I am pre-empting having to play an informed part in the discussion and decision.

It is difficult, my last two horses were on loan first, and were only lightly vetted before I bought them. If this horse was half the cost, I would have no qualms not having x-rays. He’s affordable because he’s 11 but I would like to have some confidence he’s not towards the end of his working life. I have a semi retired 19 year horse already, and a 15 year old who is on loan with a view to sell. I have typically bought warmbloods about 10 years old before.

For example if failed hock flexion but not by much, what would you expect in an older horse that will be vetted straight from 16 hours in stable? I appreciate you’d then ask vet his thoughts. I guess you then do the strenuous part of the vetting, and then repeat the trot up and flexion, and see if now passed. Then have discussion with vet whether to walk away or x-ray?
 
Asha said:
I dont class 11 as an older horse, and would expect he/she to pass a 5 stage vetting. the key thing is communication with the vet, explain any concerns you may have, and also what you intend to do with the horse. Id Xray if the horse was over £10k, I'm sure insurance companies want xrays if the horse is worth a certain amount anyway. Good luck
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As someone with a 19 and 15 year old, it isn't in some respects, but horse is an age and mileage when expectations on vetting start to shift. My instructor said you pretty much wont get an 11 year old competition horse, that doesn't have some hock changes on x-rays even if are not affecting him.

My insurance don't require x-rays as I am not insuring him for full purchase price, and mainly for vet fees. I have checked.
 
There is a part of the fact that I am turning this over and over in my mind, and Monday is a long way to wait for! I am just interested in views. Of course I am paying my instructor and vet to assess horse give a professional view. But I have been around long enough to know both are only a view, and it is my decision and my gut instinct too.
 
I used to buy older horses for MrGS as hunters .I would forgive positive hock flexions results without a second thought if they where minor and even on both limbs .
You need to give the vet the fullest possible picture of what you want from the horse I bought a 13 yo who failed on a fore fetlock flexions but he was a very good horse and very very fat I chanced it and MrGS got five fantasic seasons out of him before that leg prevented him being ridden .I managed him to death the whole time .
It's easy for me because I don't insure so I can say ok that's the weak point how can I manage that it .
 
I'd get bloods pulled for a Cushing's test, too. I had a 10yo sail through a 5 stage vetting last year by a top referral practice, but no x rays. The list of things that have shown up since is rather lengthy :(. Bi lateral hock arthritis, Cushing's, wave mouth, suspected PSSM... Plus her epically wonky musculature wasn't even recorded on the vetting cert.
 
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Tiddlypom said:
I'd get bloods pulled for a Cushing's test, too. I had a 10yo sail through a 5 stage vetting last year by a top referral practice, but no x rays. The list of things that have shown up since is rather lengthy :(. Bi lateral hock arthritis, Cushing's, wave mouth, suspected PSSM... Plus her epically wonky musculature wasn't even recorded on the vetting cert.
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Thanks, I think the horse is relatively straight, even, clean legs and feet. I’ve got my instructor travelling up to ride horse on Sunday as I want her views on soundness, straightness, ride-ability and movement, as whilst I like him, I tend to ride same two horses, and they are rather different. And vetting is Monday (it is cancellable if my instructor found something terrible, but having ridden horse twice myself, I’d hope not). I compete currently at medium, but am definitely a not very talented one horse amateur.

I take it you wish you had done x-rays before purchase?

Cushings is an interesting thought. I’m not sure I’d run the test on an otherwise 100% appearing horse? I have had my 19 year old tested twice, and my 15 year old tested once (all for good reasons) but all came back negative, perhaps biasing my thinking. But it is something I’d consider for inexplicable poor performance. Horse is a long travel away. I am taking my lorry, staying Sunday night, and if passes vetting Monday morning, I was planning to bring him home before traffic starts! Blood testing for cushings would be awkward.
 
Goldenstar said:
I used to buy older horses for MrGS as hunters .I would forgive positive hock flexions results without a second thought if they where minor and even on both limbs .
You need to give the vet the fullest possible picture of what you want from the horse I bought a 13 yo who failed on a fore fetlock flexions but he was a very good horse and very very fat I chanced it and MrGS got five fantasic seasons out of him before that leg prevented him being ridden .I managed him to death the whole time .
It's easy for me because I don't insure so I can say ok that's the weak point how can I manage that it .
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Vet knows what I want horse for and I will remind him. It is tricky, insurance or no insurance I am not sure I could manage e.g. orthopaedic hock or fetlock changes whilst expecting horse to work and compete medium to advanced medium dressage. I think hunting is possibly easier to manage mild unsoundness.

My 19 year old was never 100% when I bought him as 10 year old, and has been my horse of a lifetime, but the stress of managing him, rehabbing him, getting his body right, has taught me a lot, but I am not sure I want to emotionally do it again, if can avoid it. My vet’s advice at the time was to not look too closely, buy him as we were winning at Elementary whilst he was on loan and he wasn’t particularly expensive. I now have an amazing and generous older horse but physically he’s difficult to manage well and morally he hasn’t been able to do the level I would like for a long time.
 
Some years ago I bought a horse who was 8 with a solid competition history up to medium. He passed a 5 stage vetting but due to his value I had to have x-rays for insurance. His hock x-rays showed some changes but my vet advised that she would expect to see changes in a horse with his level of work and schooling. I got a bit knocked off his price and he never had a day's lameness in all the years I had him.

My vet had previously vetted a horse for me but her advice then was not to take the horse even if it was given to me as it was a walking vet bill. Her comment was that the failed flexion test was the least of all the problems.
 
What I would say is if you X-ray and scan and find mild changes, which is reasonably to be expected then if you plan to insure the horse you might find yourself with exclusions that may/may not be clinically relevant at the time.

Personally I'd 5 stage but not X-ray/scan. On assumption 5 stage is passed I'd then spend that saved vetting money on LOU premiums for the first year. If you have been sold a dud at least you should have some of the risk taken away and you will have all limbs covered by insurance.
 
eggs said:
Some years ago I bought a horse who was 8 with a solid competition history up to medium. He passed a 5 stage vetting but due to his value I had to have x-rays for insurance. His hock x-rays showed some changes but my vet advised that she would expect to see changes in a horse with his level of work and schooling. I got a bit knocked off his price and he never had a day's lameness in all the years I had him.

My vet had previously vetted a horse for me but her advice then was not to take the horse even if it was given to me as it was a walking vet bill. Her comment was that the failed flexion test was the least of all the problems.
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Thanks, I have always previously bought horses cheap enough that I'd buy them with an with an iff as I'd had them on loan a while first. That is my gut feeling and what my instructor says re hock x-rays.

The horse you mention that vet advised against, did vet fail on the 5 stage vetting or after x-rays?

Thanks
 
An interesting fact about this horse is that he was bred as a showjumper, has consistent good results for two years with a professional up to 1.10m. Then no further BSJA records.

Seller bought him 5 years ago, as a soured show jumper. She started him at the beginning competing dressage, and he has a consistent record going through levels to medium. His only dressage record is with the seller, and he's her only horse ever competed BD. He's got green changes.

Her reason for selling him is that she wants to event, and he is still not keen or consistent on jumping. She thought he'd come round to jumping again with time and he hasn't.

I suspect there is also a timing issue of selling him before gets older.
 
wingedhorse said:
An interesting fact about this horse is that he was bred as a showjumper, has consistent good results for two years with a professional up to 1.10m. Then no further BSJA records.

Seller bought him 5 years ago, as a soured show jumper. She started him at the beginning competing dressage, and he has a consistent record going through levels to medium. His only dressage record is with the seller, and he's her only horse ever competed BD. He's got green changes.

Her reason for selling him is that she wants to event, and he is still not keen or consistent on jumping. She thought he'd come round to jumping again with time and he hasn't.

I suspect there is also a timing issue of selling him before gets older.
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It's very easy to overthink things sometimes, especially if all your savings are on the line!
My good dressage horse is actually jump bred and started life eventing, but jacked it in pretty quickly. She converted to dressage successfully. Round peg and square hole scenario.

IME, if they are going to have soundness issues they either completely break quite young, or the wear and tear starts to show itself in that 10-12 bracket. You can rule out the former by the record. The latter should flag up on a 5 stage vetting.
 
When you buy a horse it's always a gamble even a passed vetting won't stop you being hideously unlucky six months later .
Good luck when the time comes for the vetting .
 
ihatework said:
It's very easy to overthink things sometimes, especially if all your savings are on the line!
My good dressage horse is actually jump bred and started life eventing, but jacked it in pretty quickly. She converted to dressage successfully. Round peg and square hole scenario.

IME, if they are going to have soundness issues they either completely break quite young, or the wear and tear starts to show itself in that 10-12 bracket. You can rule out the former by the record. The latter should flag up on a 5 stage vetting.
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Yes re savings! Everyone keeps telling me I am spending peanuts for what I actually want, my frugal instructor included. BUT it is still an awful lot from my perspective for a creature that might go permanently lame tomorrow from a field accident. I have always had relatively inexpensive horses and spent a fortune on their care and lessons.

This isn't a super expensive horse, but is a lot for me. But I want to enjoy next stage of progression in my riding and competing, am neither super brave or super talented!

I wasn't planning loss of use insurance, just vet fee 5k at £135 excess, and death at half purchase. I am pretty sure insurance would want x-rays for loss of use cover, when insuring to compete up to advanced medium.
 
Goldenstar said:
When you buy a horse it's always a gamble even a passed vetting won't stop you being hideously unlucky six months later .
Good luck when the time comes for the vetting .
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Thanks. Yes, I have had horses and competed long enough to appreciate this. It is about ensuring odds are in my favour. I cant control them.

I'd hope that if passes vetting, an 11 fairly even muscled, clean legs, good feet, used to hacking, done a fair bit of competing, used to group turnout, generally exposed to life and sensible, nice but not amazing moving horse has a fighting change of us both being able to have some fun together.

But it's all a gamble. If I wasn't already hopelessly addicted I'd never advise anyone sensible to get into horses, competing and the associated heartbreak as they are fragile creatures!
 
wingedhorse said:
Yes re savings! Everyone keeps telling me I am spending peanuts for what I actually want, my frugal instructor included. BUT it is still an awful lot from my perspective for a creature that might go permanently lame tomorrow from a field accident. I have always had relatively inexpensive horses and spent a fortune on their care and lessons.

This isn't a super expensive horse, but is a lot for me. But I want to enjoy next stage of progression in my riding and competing, am neither super brave or super talented!

I wasn't planning loss of use insurance, just vet fee 5k at £135 excess, and death at half purchase. I am pretty sure insurance would want x-rays for loss of use cover, when insuring to compete up to advanced medium.
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I agree. I much prefer buying cheap horses. It's a state of mind, bought 2 cheapies this year and more than happy to write the money off if it goes wrong.

Been trying to buy an event horse on behalf of a syndicate, of which I manage and belong to, with what is for me a huge amount of money to spend on a nag. To be honest it's nerve wracking, even more so when others are entrusting you to spend wisely!
 
ihatework said:
I agree. I much prefer buying cheap horses. It's a state of mind, bought 2 cheapies this year and more than happy to write the money off if it goes wrong.

Been trying to buy an event horse on behalf of a syndicate, of which I manage and belong to, with what is for me a huge amount of money to spend on a nag. To be honest it's nerve wracking, even more so when others are entrusting you to spend wisely!
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Yes! I am now in a position where I have two horses on lovely but fairly expensive part livery yard (only one that ticks all the turnout, care, hacking, school, peace of mind etc.), and I have worked out the running costs and I am soft re moving horses on, and I really want to enjoy my dressage training and competing.
 
ihatework said:
What I would say is if you X-ray and scan and find mild changes, which is reasonably to be expected then if you plan to insure the horse you might find yourself with exclusions that may/may not be clinically relevant at the time.

Personally I'd 5 stage but not X-ray/scan. On assumption 5 stage is passed I'd then spend that saved vetting money on LOU premiums for the first year. If you have been sold a dud at least you should have some of the risk taken away and you will have all limbs covered by insurance.
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Alternatively as I am pretty sure insurance would need x-rays for LOU at purchase price an at AM level of work, I could if flies through 5 stage part, and vet no concerns, not x-ray and put money saved towards better second hand dressage saddle. I've never spent more than £800 on second hand dressage saddle in past, (though spend a lot on regular saddle checks and adjustments).
 
wingedhorse said:
Thanks, I have always previously bought horses cheap enough that I'd buy them with an with an iff as I'd had them on loan a while first. That is my gut feeling and what my instructor says re hock x-rays.

The horse you mention that vet advised against, did vet fail on the 5 stage vetting or after x-rays?

Thanks
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No, told me not to waste my money on x-rays and actually called a halt to the vetting (with my agreement).
 
Not sure if this is any help but one of my horses who I have owned since a foal went lame this spring. He is a 13 year old Dutch warmblood without a huge amount of mileage although he is working at PSG. He is a chunky old fashioned sort of warmblood. My vet came up and he was very lame on hock flexion and x-rays showed some arthritic changes. My vet wanted to inject his joints but due to the risk of steroid induced laminitis I didn't want to do it then. I worked hard to get weight off him (my vet was very impressed at how much weight he manged to lose - grazing muzzzle and small amount of well soaked hay) and on her advice continued to ride him.

He actually came sound very quickly and has been in regular work ever since - prior to that he was a bit of a 'spare' horse who wasn't getting regular work. I think the trick with him was weight loss and regular work. I now have to decide whether to have his joints injected before the insurance runs out.
 
wingedhorse said:
Yes re savings! Everyone keeps telling me I am spending peanuts for what I actually want, my frugal instructor included. BUT it is still an awful lot from my perspective for a creature that might go permanently lame tomorrow from a field accident. I have always had relatively inexpensive horses and spent a fortune on their care and lessons.

This isn't a super expensive horse, but is a lot for me. But I want to enjoy next stage of progression in my riding and competing, am neither super brave or super talented!

I wasn't planning loss of use insurance, just vet fee 5k at £135 excess, and death at half purchase. I am pretty sure insurance would want x-rays for loss of use cover, when insuring to compete up to advanced medium.
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I'm sadly one of those ones that spent almost her entire savings on a well bred youngster for dressage only to have her suffer a career ending injury in the field a month later, and 8 months after that we had to PTS :( so I absolutely know how it feels to spend that much money, and the anxiety that comes with it. My best advice would be to definitely insure for LOU, even if it's just for 12 months. I didn't as I'd been lucky with previous horses, and foolishly decided it wasn't worth the extra cost. At least with LOU if the poop does hit the fan you have some comeback, whereas if you don't you're left with no horse and no money.
 
eggs said:
Not sure if this is any help but one of my horses who I have owned since a foal went lame this spring. He is a 13 year old Dutch warmblood without a huge amount of mileage although he is working at PSG. He is a chunky old fashioned sort of warmblood. My vet came up and he was very lame on hock flexion and x-rays showed some arthritic changes. My vet wanted to inject his joints but due to the risk of steroid induced laminitis I didn't want to do it then. I worked hard to get weight off him (my vet was very impressed at how much weight he manged to lose - grazing muzzzle and small amount of well soaked hay) and on her advice continued to ride him.

He actually came sound very quickly and has been in regular work ever since - prior to that he was a bit of a 'spare' horse who wasn't getting regular work. I think the trick with him was weight loss and regular work. I now have to decide whether to have his joints injected before the insurance runs out.
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Yes, I've got 15 and 19 year old warmbloods, and I very much think regular varied and good quality work 6 days a week and daily turnout, and regular bodywork keeps them all going, and stops seizing up.

I was amazed when one needed 6 weeks box rest for an injury, how long it took to get them moving normally again.

The actual long acting steroid joint injection for both hocks isn't that expensive, I don't think. If do wait until after insurance runs out.
 
FestiveFuzz said:
I'm sadly one of those ones that spent almost her entire savings on a well bred youngster for dressage only to have her suffer a career ending injury in the field a month later, and 8 months after that we had to PTS :( so I absolutely know how it feels to spend that much money, and the anxiety that comes with it. My best advice would be to definitely insure for LOU, even if it's just for 12 months. I didn't as I'd been lucky with previous horses, and foolishly decided it wasn't worth the extra cost. At least with LOU if the poop does hit the fan you have some comeback, whereas if you don't you're left with no horse and no money.
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That's a good point. My current horses are no longer insured, having reached that point in life where I'd not do anything drastic and owing to past exclusions. For me insuring this horse for vet fees for a year or two was a change back towards insurance until I knew how he was. I have rather gone off having horses insured.
 
wingedhorse said:
I take it you wish you had done x-rays before purchase?
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In retrospect, yes. I think this would have shown at the time (summer 2016) that the right hind lower hock joints had already fused, hence her passing her flexion tests. It may well have showed up the start of something similar on the left hind.

She had no vet history of lameness, but it appears that the major equestrian college where she was a working livery simply didn't notice/didn't care that they were working an unlevel horse. The horse's former owner and her breeder were as shocked as me to find out about all her various issues subsequent to me buying her.

Ironically, I had deliberately gone for an older, apparently proven horse after losing my 8yo who had been ill and lame for 3 years after a rough start in Ireland.
 
Tiddlypom said:
In retrospect, yes. I think this would have shown at the time (summer 2016) that the right hind lower hock joints had already fused, hence her passing her flexion tests. It may well have showed up the start of something similar on the left hind.

She had no vet history of lameness, but it appears that the major equestrian college where she was a working livery simply didn't notice/didn't care that they were working an unlevel horse. The horse's former owner and her breeder were as shocked as me to find out about all her various issues subsequent to me buying her.

Ironically, I had deliberately gone for an older, apparently proven horse after losing my 8yo who had been ill and lame for 3 years after a rough start in Ireland.
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What do you mean the college didn't notice they were working an unlevel horse? She was sound when vetted? Or are you thinking she would have presented as lame when hocks first fused, and they seems to have missed this? As by the time you vetted her were fully fused? I'd assumed that fused hocks would fail a vetting from movement restriction or inability to flex leg enough? Clearly not.
 
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