vetting and failing

T

Tyssandi

Veteran
Joined
7 October 2015
Messages
1,344
Visit site
Is this getting common ?? and why don't sellers check there horses prior to selling

The mare I first went to view prior to my ID failed the vet as she was lame.

My livery had one vetted just before christmas and it failed the vet because it was lame
She had one vetted yesterday again traveled over 1 1/2 hrs one way again it failed as it was lame also it was not 5 years old but 10 years old so advertised wrong.


She was a bit odd and wanted **** to hurry up and get it vetted as others were waiting in line.


I think if I was selling I would make sure my horse had a quick MOT prior to selling, poor **** is now getting fed up as 3 horses not right 2 - 5* vettings means she is many £££ out of pocket. Don't get me wrong she knows she needs vetting it is just first horse (retired) fell almost into her lap so has never gone out searching before.

Come on sellers make sure your horse's are sound before you advertise them:(
 
An experienced purchaser will be able to recognise a lame horse whilst trying it surely ? and if they are not experienced take someone with you that is. There are plenty of ways to check soundness whilst riding and watching a horse.
 
Not everyone is trying to sell dodgy horses. I know of a 5k horse who gave absolutely no indication of lameness but failed on a flexion test. No one saw that coming! I always joke that I wouldnt sell my horse (I wouldnt) because he wouldnt pas the flexion tests .. Hacking out with his ex loanee last week we talked about the time he went so slightly lame but she called the vet anyway and he gave my boy a full work up including flexion tests and he passed without any question! Crazy really but i guess thats why we have vettings?
 
Because a vetting is just one persons opinion on one certain day. On a different day or with a different vet it could be a completely different outcome so why would a seller waste their money on something that could change as quickly as that.
If horse is obviously lame or has some other glaringly obvious defect then an experienced person should be able to spot that at viewing.
 
If your livery hadn't been able to see that the horses were lame when she viewed and tried them I presume the sellers hadn't noticed either ?
 
The livery took her instructor with her in ALL cases and no mention of lameness when they viewed. They all rode and tried him, Normally when you view you do not do bloods or such like so maybe some take them off bute just prior to vetting hoping purchaser does not ask for bloods to be taken.

I know there was no hard ground when they viewed that is when horse failed so presumably they took the horse somewhere to the the hard ground trot up. The seller is not the owner only the mother of the children who owned them but they have gone to college and don't want them anymore.
 
Last edited:
If the lameness was not noticed when trying the horse then the seller could easily have missed it as well.

I have known sound horses fail a vetting and know others that would pass a vetting but have underlying issues!

Vettings do not guarantee anything unfortunately, more a guide.
 
concorde said:
If your livery hadn't been able to see that the horses were lame when she viewed and tried them I presume the sellers hadn't noticed either ?
Click to expand...

Exactly, failing for "lameness" is subjective, it may be perfectly sound in normal circumstances yet show unlevel lunged on the hard or after flexions, even an experienced owner may genuinely have no idea there is an issue.
 
I've bought 6 in the last 18 months and none have failed a 5 stage. I don't even bother going to see a horse if I have any doubts about the horse or the seller (from pics/vids/description/phone chat/google search etc), and I wouldn't put it through a vetting if I thought it would fail. I have to say I'm quite shocked at how many times a video of a horse is nothing like the description! And yes plenty of vids showing lame horses trotting round and round in circles, rider oblivious.

Although I would say if the buyer is not able to pick up on the issue at viewings, I don't see why the sellers should unless they are professionals or vets or something!

I don't think it's worth getting horse vetted before you sell, a vetting is a snapshot on that day, horse might be fine today, lame tomorrow. Selling something as a 5yr old that's 10 is a dodgy seller so they wouldn't do it anyway would they?

It sounds like your friend has had some bad luck, can she get a trusted experienced friend/instructor to accompany her to viewings?
 
Well, I had the opposite situation. Took my horse to a well respected equine vet to be 5 staged for the purchaser. he flew through the flexions and could have trotted all day on small circles on the tarmac. Right at the end, the vet said he noticed something in the eye which the purchaser might want checking out, but that sight was fine. Purchaser ran for the hills, even after I took the horse to Newmarket for a full eye checkup (not cheap) which proved conclusively that he'd been born with it and it would never cause a problem. You can't win!!
 
concorde said:
If your livery hadn't been able to see that the horses were lame when she viewed and tried them I presume the sellers hadn't noticed either ?
Click to expand...

^^ this, really... plus as above, it's just an opinion on the day so some tiny things could come and go.

I have one who I suspect wouldn't pass a flexion test some days, yet she's never been lame and is highly athletic... I didn't have her vetted when I got her, didn't see the point. Apart from as a diagnostic tool, I don't think flexion tests are that helpful really, I know I'd trot away lame if someone hooked my leg up into my chest for a minute!

Bloods are a different matter, but if I was selling I wouldn't blood test a healthy horse ;) I don't think there are lots of crooks out there but I do think vets have to cover themselves so will point out every tiny thing they spot even if it's likely to be of no consequence.
 
TYSSANDI said:
The livery took her instructor with her in ALL cases and no mention of lameness when they viewed. They all rode and tried him, Normally when you view you do not do bloods or such like so maybe some take them off bute just prior to vetting hoping purchaser does not ask for bloods to be taken.

I know there was no hard ground when they viewed that is when horse failed so presumably they took the horse somewhere to the the hard ground trot up. The seller is not the owner only the mother of the children who owned them but they have gone to college and don't want them anymore.
Click to expand...

That is assuming a seller is dishonest, any experienced adviser/ instructor would have seen the horse trot up on hard ground before even seeing it ridden, if there is nowhere within the yard then they get taken to the nearest road or track, unless the horse is not going to hack in it's new home they should always be ridden off site as well, there is always somewhere to see them trot on a road, I would never advise a client to vet a horse I had not seen trot up it is very basic requirement.
 
A lot of horses are produced too young, they are being loose jumped 1m+ At two, broken at three, competing BEF/BYD/BS at four all before the final fusions of important skeletal structures are complete.

No wonder we are seeing more lameness, more failed vettings and more dodgy dealers buying, buting and flogging lame horses. We are doing it to ourselves, hence why I won't buy a started horse or anything over 3 that's had anything but catching, leading, handling done. I don't want someone else's issues, I'd rather have only myself to blame should anything happen.

My next will probably be a straight from the breeder Welsh D or Connie for those reasons
 
Black Beastie said:
I don't want someone else's issues, I'd rather have only myself to blame should anything happen.

My next will probably be a straight from the breeder Welsh D or Connie for those reasons
Click to expand...

Tricky one, isn't it. I always thought that, but a friend only bought youngsters for a while for that exact reason but ran into health issues with them that couldn't be picked up without them being in a degree of work or having an extensive vetting (scoping/xrays etc). After watching the heartbreak she went through, I wouldn't want to spend a lot on an unstarted horse :o (It's a moot point anyway, I don't have the budget to choose really!!)
 
milliepops said:
Tricky one, isn't it. I always thought that, but a friend only bought youngsters for a while for that exact reason but ran into health issues with them that couldn't be picked up without them being in a degree of work or having an extensive vetting (scoping/xrays etc). After watching the heartbreak she went through, I wouldn't want to spend a lot on an unstarted horse :o (It's a moot point anyway, I don't have the budget to choose really!!)
Click to expand...

I would rather take that chance and trust my instincts, going with people I know and trust as breeders, than buy a started horse that has been pushed too far at probably four times the price I'd pay for the youngster.

ETA - most breeders, who value their stud prefix, reputation and saleability of their young stock, will be understanding if something they bred to do a job didn't do the job, they might not take the horse back but they usually come to some sort of agreement with the purchaser.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
milliepops said:
Tricky one, isn't it. I always thought that, but a friend only bought youngsters for a while for that exact reason but ran into health issues with them that couldn't be picked up without them being in a degree of work or having an extensive vetting (scoping/xrays etc). After watching the heartbreak she went through, I wouldn't want to spend a lot on an unstarted horse :o (It's a moot point anyway, I don't have the budget to choose really!!)
Click to expand...

Just happened to me. Got mine to 6 coming 7 and in proper work and I lost him to laminitis. No known cause and didnt respond to treatment so the only thing we can think is there was a genetic element which kicked in as he hit maturity. I'm heartbroken. So I'm done with young horses, its just too much of a risk for me.
 
milliepops said:
Tricky one, isn't it. I always thought that, but a friend only bought youngsters for a while for that exact reason but ran into health issues with them that couldn't be picked up without them being in a degree of work or having an extensive vetting (scoping/xrays etc). After watching the heartbreak she went through, I wouldn't want to spend a lot on an unstarted horse :o (It's a moot point anyway, I don't have the budget to choose really!!)
Click to expand...

I bought an untouched youngster 14 years ago, as I wanted a complete clean slate that contained no-one else's mistakes.

Horse was brilliant until the age of 6 when he fell in the field during turnout and tore 70% of his collateral ligament. And it was all over.

He remained with me as a pretty field ornament until he was put down last year due to unconnected issues.

Such is life with horses!
 
thing is some horses will "fail" a vetting and yet have a long competitive or working life and others will sail through merrily and go lame 6 months down the line. yes there are some things that will be found that will be serious but most horses will have a few things found that will be mentioned. I tend to take flexion tests as a guide rather than a fail depending on how little reaction there was but where do we draw the line with vettings? for example should "I" have them scanned at a vetting? should the horse have xrays and if so should they be feet to knee and hock level or go all the way to include the back and neck? yes sellers should know simple things like how old the horse is and if the horse is sound or not but if they bought without a vetting and have not had a problem and the new person has tried it on a surface it is possible that a lameness that only shows on a circle on a hard surface would be missed. obviously there are people who know that the horse is not totally sound and will try to mislead a buyer there are also people who simply do not see a slight lameness so it reeally can be a nightmare when buying. I am really lucky in that although I am not getting any more I have access to what 20 years ago would be the perfect competition horses for me but that is through a person who wants to place the horse with who they want to have them so not anything that most people can do and I must admit I would not look forwards to buying now as much as I used to
 
I think more horses are failing now as vets are terrified of being sued if a horse goes wrong 6 months after purchase.

Many horses are a little stiff after flexions or on a 5m circle on the hard, it doesn't stop them doing their ridden job to a good standard.
 
It's a tough one, to me vettings have always been subjective you are trusting an experienced vet to look at what's in front of him and give you his professional opinion, now a days I find any junior vet doing a vetting and more factually reporting what they find rather using experience and judgement.
 
We don't always get them vetted. OH current hunter ID looked at him tried him liked him, had bog spavin but nice horse 8 yo. Offered reduced price cash to collect following week no vetting. Not sure he would have passed but now late teens high mileage and still going. Some of it is pure luck.

If they have issues you have to decide whether it is important for what you want to do. A vet that vets for purpose is ideal.....a slightly unlevel happy hacker 100% safe is fine ...but you don't want it vetted as an eventer!
 
You can make a sound horse lame with flexion tests :-) Just as you can make any horse react to pressure on the back if you know where to push....A vetting is an advisory, not a mandatory test, i.e. you are perfectly at liberty to purchase horses which the vet "fails" if you like it well enough. I have bought dog lame horses and fixed them, I've also had client's 5 star vetting passes go catastrophically wrong 3 months after purchase. I don't have horses vetted any more.
 
I had a horse 5 stage vetted in early December. She was fine through all the flexions, exercise and so on. It was on the circle on hard ground after exercise that my vet noticed a slight unlevelness. The horse was absolutely fine when we tried her although she did need shoeing.
The horse was shod a few days before the vetting so my vet suggested giving her two weeks to see if it was cutting back the foot was the problem then she'd re-test again.
The sellers and I agreed to that.
About 4 days after this the sellers phoned me to say that the lameness had got worse and they weren't going to sell the horse to me (my vet did suspect it could be coffin joint).
I do believe the sellers were unaware of this problem and it only became apparent as the horses's work was increased - she's only 4 and recently imported from the Netherlands.
Poor horse, I don't suppose she'll get fixed, maybe put in foal as she's incredibly well bred, the best of Irish and KWPN lines. But thanks to my vet for saving me from heartbreak and expense.

Another horse I bought 4 years ago passed a 5 stage vetting no problem. Two months later he went lame in front on both legs. Again, a youngster and I don't believe the seller had a clue. Anyway, he had a tildren drip and a goodly amount of time off and has returned to competition and is now happily jumping Fox.

Horses are a gamble...
 
Cortez said:
You can make a sound horse lame with flexion tests :-) Just as you can make any horse react to pressure on the back if you know where to push....A vetting is an advisory, not a mandatory test, i.e. you are perfectly at liberty to purchase horses which the vet "fails" if you like it well enough. I have bought dog lame horses and fixed them, I've also had client's 5 star vetting passes go catastrophically wrong 3 months after purchase. I don't have horses vetted any more.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I've seen many a vet produce a "lame" horse on flexion.

Why don't you go with your livery to view next time TYSSANDI and save her the cost of another vetting when you spot it's lame .....
 
Vettings drive me nuts, I have sold a few and most passed fine apart from two, one was found to have a "cataract" , so we had an ophthalmologist out with his high tech equipment.... who found absolutely nothing. Cost me £200 ! Put it down to a scratch on the cornea, but there was no sign of it at all only 1 week later. Nearly gave the buyers and myself a heart attack when it was mentioned!

Another vet failed my horse on 1/10 lameness , which nobody else could see. I made him trot up and point it out to me, I am sharp with lameness but saw nothing, on a front leg too.. so usually easier to spot. He started digging his nails in his tendon and pointing out how he flinched! Funnily enough, he flinched on the other leg when he stuck his nails in too :rolleyes: I had my own vet out (very experienced with lameness) who did a full work up, and found the horse to be completely sound. The lady agreed the vet was an idiot and bought him . 2 years later and the horse has had no problems whatsoever.

However, if the horse is slightly lame and the the buyer doesn't spot it at the viewing, arguably the seller may not have noticed.. especially if they have a lot of horses to deal with . I check mine pretty much every day for minor soreness so I can get ahead of any possible problems, but it is easy to understand that people may not have time, and they may be under the general care of less experienced staff who wouldn't notice a problem.
 
Last edited:
100% agree, I bought a unpacked youngster last year,'flew' through vetting, now diagnosed with kissing spines & lame on all 4 feet! The issues are thought to be sortable but it's not what I wanted. I thought I'd be riding her now rather than trying to rehab! I know vettings are subjective & what the person sees on the day but the vetting now feels like a waste of time & money.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top