Vetting - failed on 1/10ths lameness on hard circle

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ApplesandCarrots

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Vetting - failed on 1/10ths lameness on hard circle - is the vet being overly cautious?

Is it normal for a vet to fail a horse's vetting for this? I have heard different opinions about this - that 90% of horses are a bit lame on a hard circle. The vet didn't pass the horse's vetting due to 1/10ths lameness on left fore on a small left circle on hard surface.

  • Horse is 100% sound in every way on the soft ground in the menege
  • The horse trots up 100% sound in a straight line on the hard surface.
  • Horse is 100% sound on hard surface on right rein on a small circle
  • Horse is 1/10ths lame (left fore) on hard surface on the left rein on a small circle

Is the vet being overly pedantic and fussy? Would a horse normally pass a 5 stage with this extremely subtle, barely noticeable bit of lameness on the left on the hard? It's a big horse, I've also heard that big horses generally do struggle on the hard on a small circle.

Opinions / any similar experiences are welcome.
 
One of mine got failed for the same thing, the ground was quite stony so we think he bruised his foot. Got him re-vetted 2 weeks later and he passed no probs
 
This happened to me. I had horse on trial for 2 weeks but vetting was stopped when vet found horse was 1/10 lame on hard circle.

As the horse had proved perfect during the trail period I didn't want to walk away. Vet's recommendation was to keep working horse as normal i.e. jump, canter, gallop etc then re-vet in two weeks. I kept on trail for another two weeks, followed vet's advice and he passed.

I have now had the horse six months and so far no problems. He is just what I was looking for and I'm so glad I gave him a second chance.
 
I had one i was selling a few years ago who failed on the same thing but behind. The people were very novice and didnt want to take a risk. I had my vet look at her and he said she was sound. Then agreed a sale to a different lot of people who had the same vet as the first people and he passed her the second time! Think she prob stood on a stone of similar. If i was buying and really liked the horse i would leave it a week or so and then have that part of the vetting done again.
 
ApplesandCarrots said:
Vetting - failed on 1/10ths lameness on hard circle - is the vet being overly cautious?

Is it normal for a vet to fail a horse's vetting for this? I have heard different opinions about this - that 90% of horses are a bit lame on a hard circle. The vet didn't pass the horse's vetting due to 1/10ths lameness on left fore on a small left circle on hard surface.

  • Horse is 100% sound in every way on the soft ground in the menege
  • The horse trots up 100% sound in a straight line on the hard surface.
  • Horse is 100% sound on hard surface on right rein on a small circle
  • Horse is 1/10ths lame (left fore) on hard surface on the left rein on a small circle

Is the vet being overly pedantic and fussy? Would a horse normally pass a 5 stage with this extremely subtle, barely noticeable bit of lameness on the left on the hard? It's a big horse, I've also heard that big horses generally do struggle on the hard on a small circle.

Opinions / any similar experiences are welcome.
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I think it would be normal- as it is a snapshot of the horse on that particular day- so if they note any lameness, no matter how small , i would imagine that most vets would not pass it, but then maybe some would but just note why etc - it's difficult isn't it!- and it also depends what the horse is to be used for as well i.e if the horse is to be a dressage horse then lameness no matter how small is a big no no!

Another day though , you may get a different result!

Did they indicate at all what was causing it? like if it was foot related you may just be able to tweak the shoeing or something, re-present the horse and you might not even notice it!

On the other hand (being devils advocate here!) if i was buying, i would want to know why the horse was lame- then you know what you are dealing with and know if it is something that is easily resolvable or something that could potentially deteriorate.

Good luck though!
 
the horse sustained a knock to his left fore leg while being loaded one month ago in mid-Jan - there was swelling in the leg, and it was cut in several places. The idiots that did the loading did not put boots or bandages on him for the loading (if they had I wouldn't be in this situation).

He passed a 5 stage vetting in Nov 2010, I had him vetted to make sure there were no surprises if a potential buyer spent money to have him vetted.

Then at the end of Jan, he was vetted for a purchase, and failed due to the previously mentioned slight 1/10ths lameness on the hard surface.

The slight lameness is caused by this loading injury as he was 100% before. But the vet started telling me he needed to do nerve blocking and xrays and all sorts to determine exactly where the problem is coming from... I said no, I do not want to incur thousands of pounds in vets costs when we all know what caused this new lameness, and I do not want to incur these costs for the sake of a vetting. The vet recommended that the horse be in full work, and to be ridden twice per day to keep on top of his energy levels, and said he was sound and fine to be ridden.

My feeling is that the horse should have a bit of time off, and then be vetted again. But now the buyer wants to walk away and have the 10% deposit refunded. If roles were reversed, and I was the buyer and I loved the horse, I would wait for the horse to come right again, especially if I knew it was something that had just happened and could be attributed to a specific incident.

I am a bit stuck really...
 
ApplesandCarrots said:
the horse sustained a knock to his left fore leg while being loaded one month ago in mid-Jan - there was swelling in the leg, and it was cut in several places. The idiots that did the loading did not put boots or bandages on him for the loading (if they had I wouldn't be in this situation).

He passed a 5 stage vetting in Nov 2010, I had him vetted to make sure there were no surprises if a potential buyer spent money to have him vetted.

Then at the end of Jan, he was vetted for a purchase, and failed due to the previously mentioned slight 1/10ths lameness on the hard surface.

The slight lameness is caused by this loading injury as he was 100% before. But the vet started telling me he needed to do nerve blocking and xrays and all sorts to determine exactly where the problem is coming from... I said no, I do not want to incur thousands of pounds in vets costs when we all know what caused this new lameness, and I do not want to incur these costs for the sake of a vetting. The vet recommended that the horse be in full work, and to be ridden twice per day to keep on top of his energy levels, and said he was sound and fine to be ridden.

My feeling is that the horse should have a bit of time off, and then be vetted again. But now the buyer wants to walk away and have the 10% deposit refunded. If roles were reversed, and I was the buyer and I loved the horse, I would wait for the horse to come right again, especially if I knew it was something that had just happened and could be attributed to a specific incident.

I am a bit stuck really...
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Oh no what a nightmare- sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place!- hopefully your buyer will stick with it and give it a couple of extra weeks to resolve- if i was the buyer i would do the same as what you suggested as well!

Pherhaps it is a bit of bruising that in a couple of weeks might be better-have you tried treating with witch hazel or something for bruising...good luck- fingers crossed and keep us posted!
 
It sounds like the other issue here, is that you probably don't want to give the deposit back ? Unfortunately on the day the horse was vetted, it was not sound, so you are going to have to give the money back. It is down to the buyers if they are willing to come back. if I were you, I would offer to pay for the second vetting in 2 weeks, it might make them willing to have a second look.

My friend had her horse vetted twice. 1st vet condemned it, the 2nd vet from the same practise, passed it. In his opinion, for its age it was sound enough.
 
Having had a horse with collateral ligament problems that was sound most of the time except on a small circle I would never buy one that failed the vet on this. There are too many sound horses out there and it would always be in the back of my mind I am afraid. I sympathise and hope yours is sound next time but I do not think the buyers are being unreasonable - they are probably very disapointed, but, that is why they had a vetting done....
I would probably not agree to wait and would look elsewhere, we buy horses for the long term, to keep, so try not to start out with possible problems as we all pick up things anyway along the way.
 
misst said:
Having had a horse with collateral ligament problems that was sound most of the time except on a small circle I would never buy one that failed the vet on this. There are too many sound horses out there and it would always be in the back of my mind I am afraid. I sympathise and hope yours is sound next time but I do not think the buyers are being unreasonable - they are probably very disapointed, but, that is why they had a vetting done....
I would probably not agree to wait and would look elsewhere, we buy horses for the long term, to keep, so try not to start out with possible problems as we all pick up things anyway along the way.
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Me too. My horse had collateral ligament strain that only ever showed up on a hard circle to the left, 2/10th lame. He's sound now (barefoot). He's 17hh. So for me a no. sorry.x
 
If you feel this is normal-why do you think it was only one leg that was lame one? I.e suggesting he is sore on that leg but not the other...
Yes vet was right to fail, it's up to you to negotiate with buyer now who is well within their rights to withdraw
 
returning the deposit money is not the issue, the buyer and the horse were (are) perfect for each other. She was exactly the sort of person I wanted to take the horse on... she was completely in love with him, and I felt like he'd be in fantastic hands with her... so I am a bit gutted that this perfect partnership is about to fall through...
It's a good idea for me to pay for another vetting - I had actually considered getting another vet from the same clinic...it's a great idea to get a fresh pair of eyes looking at him. I'll see if she'll hang on for me to arrange and pay for vetting for her, fingers crossed.... Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Well rather than paying for another vetting I'd be inclined to actually get the lameness worked up, assuming he is still lame, if not I'd pay for another vetting but a 100% sound horse would not show up as 1/10 lame.
 
A horse is either lame or sound. No inbetween. Personally i am always more worried about slight lameness than something that is very lame, when there is an obvious reason.

I would have nerve blocks to at least find where the lameness is originating from, this wont cost a fortune, and you will then be in a position to decide wether the horse can be ridden or turned away or whatever.
 
my newest horse was 2-3/10 lame on his left fore 1st time he was vetted just showed up on hard circle on the lunge. he actually didn't fail for that but for something to do with hindlimbs looking unlevel and 1/10 lame after flexion RH. i took him on trial and after some better farriery he was about 1/10 lame left fore on the lunge on the hard. 2nd vet didn't even mention that on the vetting form, although the RH flexion issue still cropped up. insurance company nicely excluded the entire right hind which really pisses me off, but not a lot i can do about it. thankful to the vet for not being bothered enough about the forelimb lameness to even mention it or no doubt i'd have another leg excluded!
 
Sorry I wouldn't buy him with unilateral lameness on a circle on hard ground. There are too many horses out there at the moment at good prices who would be sound on both reins. I'd walk away and take back my deposit. I hope he comes right and that when you find new buyers they don't see this on here and realise it's your horse!
 
I agree with all of the above. I`d be more worried by a horse which is unilaterally lame. I had a horse who failed its first vetting on both fronts on a hard tight circle. Second vet said it was perfectly acceptable for a flat footed thorughbred and passed him.

I`d give the deposit back to keep the goodwill, and then invite them back in a couple of weeks for a vetting paid for by you.
 
It's a difficult one as slight lameness on the hard can be caused by bad luck on the day or a list of very serious problems. If I was the buyer I would want to keep the horse in a hard work for two weeks and re-vet. If sound I would buy, if still lame I would not buy and leave it up to the seller to look into the cause.
 
Is the vet being overly pedantic and fussy
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Nope - just doing his job.

Return the deposit and get your own vet to investigate the ongoing lameness, before you advertise the horse again. Obviously a problem that's been going on since November is something of a concern.
 
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it's interesting how people mis-read the posts then jump to conclusions and make rash accusations...some of the nasty comments on here are due to people not reading the original post properly and not understanding the situation. I am not out to rip anyone off. The horse has NOT been lame since November!!! The horse passed a 5 stage in November, including on the hard surface on both reins, and has been in full work, he was injured (some cuts on front legs) when loading into a lorry in January, due to the loaders not putting boots on him. This is a brand new issue with the leg, he was 100% before the loading cuts happened - DUE TO 5 STAGE BEING PASSED IN NOV.

Before you post up negative, accusing comments, you should actually take time to read and understand the issues at hand. If you don't have time to read thru the history, don't bother posting!!

The deposit WILL be returned, the horse WILL be given time to recover from the knocks to the legs, and then readvertised when completely sound on hard surface again.

Honestly people, I appreciate the helpful comments and shared experiences that people have put up, but if you're not going to offer anything helpful, find something else to do with your time...
 
Apologies - you are quite correct - I had misread the post re the knock on the legs.


Honestly people, I appreciate the helpful comments and shared experiences that people have put up, but if you're not going to offer anything helpful, find something else to do with your time...
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Can't see anything unhelpful in the post.

Chill out......
 
Being totally honest I would and have walked away if I were buying, no matter how perfect a partnership it may have seemed.

lame is lame no matter what the cause or how long it has been there.

If you want to rest the horse fine, but please make sure it is back in full work for a reasonable period before advertising again, as we all know a horse can come sound after rest only to go lame again when worked harder.

As a buyer I certainly would not want the horse rested then re vetted without being worked as hard as I would want to work it.

In fairness you don't know for certain what is wrong with the horse, yes it had a few knocks but it might not be related or it may have caused something to show up that was already starting to form. You suspect it was just the knock but you don't know for certain
 
Vet and buyers tend to be very cautious these days. you see many instances of things going wrong being said on forums etc and people become frightened to take a risk. I don't think I would.

The buyers will probably take advice from the vet, and in some ways it will depend on what the horse is going to be used for and the cost of the horse how much of a risk the buyers will be willing to take. The vetting is snap shot in time and on the day the vet may have said the 1/10th lameness would make the horse unsuitable for the job that the buyers would want the horse to do.

An expensive horse that needs to be able to cope with competition especially at the harder levels needs to be sounder perhaps than a horse used for light hacking.

Without knowing the exact cause of the lameness then it is difficult for the buyers to make a decision. It could be related to the accident you mention or it could be something completely different.

Don't forget the buyers will have paid a lot of money to the vet for the vetting and they will want the vet to pick up everything however small as I am sure you would want if you were paying for a 5 stage vetting prior to purchase.

Perhaps just get the vet to repeat that part of the vetting not the whole 5 stage again.

I know a lot people say that few horses will pass a flextion and nearly everything will be a bit lame and that may be the cases for older horses (you don't say how old the horse was) but I would expect a younger horse at least to pass.
 
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