Vetting showed grade 2 heart murmur - advice pls

Tonks said:
From what I know vets categorised heart mumurs as "funtional" or "pathological". Functional means not to worry, whereas pathological means - worry!

The grading from 1 to 6 is concerned with the audibilty or loudness of the mumur when listened to with a stethoscope.

Functional mumurs are normally audible at 1-2 and I think pathological mumurs are then graded 3-6.

I'm pretty sure that exercise doesn't really have a bearing on severity as some functional mumurs are louder with exercise whereas some pathological mumurs are quieter with exercise or heart rate increase.

As long as there are no structural changes to the heart, ie, leaking, narrowing of arties, arrhythmia, disease or defects it shouldn't cause any problems as is therefore, functional.

The only way to know for sure about the type and severity of the mumur is to have an ECG but if the horse is a) not very expensive in the first place and b) is only required for hacking and dressage is might not be worth the expense.

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Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound).

Many practices have portable ultrasounds so if you were worried and very keen on the horse, you could always have it investigated?

Removing geek hat now........
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Piglet has has a heart murmur since I got her. She's never had any problems with it. She's won just about every Scurry championship there is and has qualified for HOYS for the last 11 years, so has definitely not taken life easy!:DIf your vet thinks its ok, I would go for it. Good luck!
 
Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound).

It is my understanding that in general, loud murmurs are more likely to be important or significant than quiet murmurs, so the original poster should feel comforted by this as her vet suggested.

However, as you stated there are exceptions to this rule and the intensity of a murmur does not correspond exactly with the severity of an abnormality. So it's the characteristics of the mumur that are primary rather than simply audibility, I guess.

If you have clinical experience regarding exercise and mumurs then I have to bow to that and indeed, over the years most vets have told me that if it doesn't get worse with exercise then it's functional or nothing to worry about. However, from my readings over the years it suggests that this 'rule of thumb' is not always the case.

Yep, I am sorry re ECG and you're right.
 
"Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound)."

It is my understanding that in general, loud murmurs are more likely to be important or significant than quiet murmurs, so the original poster should feel comforted by this as her vet suggested.

However, as you stated there are exceptions to this rule and the intensity of a murmur does not correspond exactly with the severity of an abnormality. So it's the characteristics of the mumur that are primary rather than simply audibility, I guess.

If you have clinical experience regarding exercise and mumurs then I have to bow to that and indeed, over the years most vets have told me that if it doesn't get worse with exercise then it's functional or nothing to worry about. However, from my readings and experience over the years it suggests that this 'rule of thumb' is not always the case.

Yep, I am sorry re ECG and you're right.
 
Sorry Tonks - reckon I sounded a tad obnoxious in my post. Vet student keeness takes over!! :D OP's vet prob wouldn't pass a horse if he had any worries about a murmur so reckon there's nothing to be too concerned about
 
robthecob said:
Obviously one persons not a lot of money is another persons £££. I recently had sarcoids treated on my mare after age developed one and the bill was £450 my mare is uninsured due to LOU but it gets costly as the cream needs to be applied up to 5 times by a vet so it soon mounts up, the cream alone was £150.
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Wow thats a heck of a bill. I wouldn't have said your bill was not a lot! Mine was under £150 for two treatments. Your horse's sarcoids sound much more severe than ours were.
 
Crikey thanks for all the advice guys, you've all put so much time into this so I can't thank you enough. I've taken it all on board, chewed it around a fair amount and also spoken to my own vet (horse is currently at other end of country) and asked him to speak to vet who did the vetting and get back to me (hope that made sense!). Anywho, I now feel confident that the 'pass' on the certificate is for good reason and that both the sarcoid (which apparently is the easiest type to treat and the most benign) and murmur will not make this horse unfit for purpose. I could get really picky about it, but to me, even with these imperfections, I still think he's the right horse for me. I'll be having another lesson on him Saturday and bringing him home after that to start his new dressage career with me :)

Thank you all so much - you've been an amazing help! Xxxx
 
We got Spud's murmur investigated by a cardiologist and it turns out he has three! One normal harmless fitness related one, one harmless age related one, and one that is OK at the moment but may or may not cause problems in the future. MontyandZoom is right though - it's his two harmless ones which are loud and the potentially sinister one which is barely noticeable. The cardiologist was quite happy for him to keep working as normal though, and she just said to keep him within his comfort zone. All the while it is a 'regular irregularity' everything is fine. She said that we're in the right sport as Spud's heart will get listened to more than most.

It did scare the bejeezus out of us when he was first diagnosed but horses' hearts are notoriously inefficient and leaky and there are loads of horses out there living perfectly normal fit and healthy lives with weird murmurs.

If your vet is happy it isn't a problem then it's unlikely to be a problem. Actually the cardiologist said to us that it is the really athletic horses with big hearts that tend to have weird rhythms, so ironically it could be a sign of a really athletic horse.
 
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It says in one of my vet books that human doctors can't resist listening to their horse's hearts, and then run round to see the vet in a panic as they can hear all sorts of noises and sloshing about that would be serious in a human, but for a horse is considered normal.

Although I'm a lot less knowledgable than lots of you, I understood that a horse might have a slight noise in the heart at rest, but if it went away with exercise it is oK.
 
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