Vettings and 10 metre circles on concrete! RANT!

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natalia

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I AM FUMING.

I can understand vets wanting to see the horse on a circle for a vetting, but today has just proved why I don't like them lunged on the concrete. We had a lovely little horse being vetted today, and he was flying through his vetting, until vet asked to see him on the circle on the concrete. Upon doing so he promptly slipped, fell right over and is now not only lame, but also has a variety of battle wounds to show for this (this by the way is a top class WH stamp and was meant to be at a show over the weekend with his new owners). TBH we were very lucky that he didn't break his shoulder or any limbs, so I am now refusing to let any more of my horses do this for any vet. We don't have any other level concrete area to do so, so if the vet insists on it they will have to be done in a pot holed car park. I have always maintained that this is a really dangerous thing to do and most vets normally try and tell me it isn't, but today just proves it is. Anyone else have any experiences?
 
I actually asked my vet (who vetted my horse) not to lunge on concrete - he agreed, perhaps a little reluctantly, because he viewed it as an important part of the vetting process.

Difficult call - and I can understand your anger. But for many it's a crucial part of the process.
 
my YOs parents 40+yo pony died after breaking its neck being lunged tight circles on the concrete yard. Perfectly good manege and fields yards away. Major teaching college vet too. They received an apology but too late for pony.
 
This narks me! I had a similar incident about 6 years ago with a horse who was being vetted for going back into ridden work, he slipped and ended up with a horrid amount of swelling on his stifle and was lame.. I'm never doing it again.
 
I don't know a lot about vetting but surly common sense would tell you its bad idea. I would never lunge on concrete so what good is a vetting going to tell you about it that can't be seen from lunging in a school. I hope the your poor horse recovers quickly.
 
I don't know a lot about vetting but surly common sense would tell you its bad idea. I would never lunge on concrete so what good is a vetting going to tell you about it that can't be seen from lunging in a school.
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A horse may appear quite sound when lunged on a surface - and absolutely hopping when it's done on concrete. It can be a very useful tool when assessing a horse for purchase. That's why vet's do it.
 
The problem is that this part of the vetting can show up issues which might not be found by flexion tests and lunging on a surface (particularly front foot issues/navicular/). I can totally understand why vets want to do it, but also that it can be dangerous and can cause horses to fall (sorry to hear about your horse OP). I suppose the answer is to try to find somewhere sufficiently hard but with a bit of grip. At the moment, our fields are probably hard enough to do this on.
 
I can understand why vets want to do it- to add stress to show up problems however many, many horses cant work on a 10m circle in a school because they arent balanced enough, let alone on a slippery surface.
 
teddyt said:
I can understand why vets want to do it- to add stress to show up problems however many, many horses cant work on a 10m circle in a school because they arent balanced enough, let alone on a slippery surface.
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My point exactly! Esp. my 4 yr olds who are all legs! And lots of these are also just riding club horses, who will never be asked to go on a 10 metre circle in all their happy hacking lives!
 
trotting circles on concrete shows up bilateral lameness that isn't visible trotting in a straight line.
 
Mine has a soft tissue injury in his feet and on a good day looked perfectly sound until lunged on a 10 meter circle on hard standing.
If you didn't do this he could pass a 5 stage vetting when he as an underlying issue. This is something that would flare up if he was worked hard in any circumstance not just circles.

Someone I know wasn't able to do this part as the place he was vetted didn't have a suitable area, the horse passed and a few months later was diagnosed with Navicular.

Luckily I have been at yards that have a suitable hard area to do this, not smooth concrete but I think it shows how when you are doing a vetting it is important to have access to the right facilities to do all the tests safely.
 
I know it is important to do this on hard ground, too - but tight circles, I believe, are too much for most horses - they don't necessarily wear trainers either and are probably worked up by never having had to do it before... so slipping is not too uncommon. Running them up and down (with you running with the horse) is better in my opinion.

Thing is, I've dort of lost confidence in most vets after they failed to diagnose my horse properly for a whole year and just told me to keep her working - until her lameness just got worse. That is because whenever they did examine her in the clinic with all the facilities, they could not "reproduce" her lameness... probably because it was a different environment and she was a bit excited, etc. Then - there's also a problem with everything lying in the vet's perception of things. I told them exactly where she was lame, but apparently they did not even check where I told them to, wanting to see it with "their own eyes" (how can you, if you can't even "reproduce" it).
 
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Lunging on a hard surface can show up different types of lameness compared to a soft surface like a school or field.....

Its part of the vetting for a reason.Personally I wouldnt accept a 5 stage vetting without it and if the owner told me it wasnt a possibility,when they had the facilitys,id wonder if they werent willing because they were worried it would show up lameness.

It was bad luck that your poor pony feel over....but accidents do happen.
Out of curiosity was it a tight circle that he had diffficulty with or just bad luck and a slip?
 
tasel said:
I know it is important to do this on hard ground, too - but tight circles, I believe, are too much. Running them up and down (with you running with the horse) is better in my opinion.
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Mine was sound in a straight line but he's not a sound horse.
After my experience I have to say I would not buy a horse unless me or my vet had seen it trot sound under these conditions.
However I would also get it boxed to somewhere to do the vetting if there wasn't anywhere suitable on site so it is safe.
 
I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it.
 
No just pure bad luck and a very bad slip and crashing fall. Horse was trotting round sound as a bell prior to this. I would like to know if vets doing vettings have some sort of insurance for this type of injury, obv. he was treated for free. I had another one go off to the vets for x-rays once for a vetting, upon unloading in their car park he stood on a farriers nail which went right in to his frog, Hey presto lengthy stay, lots of x-rays, joint flushed at said vets and £2000 vets bill. (which I refused to pay as they were liable, esp. as it was one of their nurses unloading him). I would be interested though to find out what would have happened if horse yesterday had broken anything resulting in PTS as I had expressed my concerns about doing this (as I always do) and vet told me to get on with it. Trotting on 10 m hard circles will not always show up navicular anyway, as I know a few who have passed and have it quite badly, including someone locally who got in trouble for an insurance scam, bought high powered horses with navic, got them right with one vet, then had them re vetted with diff practice and fully insured them for large sums LOU and then claimed as soon as it showed up again. I also have an SJ mare who won't trot sound on a ten metre circle due to having quite odd feet, she has clean xrays though and is competition fit and out.
 
lindsayH said:
I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it.
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I'm with you on that one, luckily I don't have concrete yard, just hardcore, but I have previously refused to let a vet at a vetting put a dental gag on a 4 yo without sedation, just to have a look at teeth:rolleyes:
 
natalia said:
No just pure bad luck and a very bad slip and crashing fall. Horse was trotting round sound as a bell prior to this. I would like to know if vets doing vettings have some sort of insurance for this type of injury, obv. he was treated for free. I had another one go off to the vets for x-rays once for a vetting, upon unloading in their car park he stood on a farriers nail which went right in to his frog, Hey presto lengthy stay, lots of x-rays, joint flushed at said vets and £2000 vets bill. (which I refused to pay as they were liable, esp. as it was one of their nurses unloading him). I would be interested though to find out what would have happened if horse yesterday had broken anything resulting in PTS as I had expressed my concerns about doing this (as I always do) and vet told me to get on with it. Trotting on 10 m hard circles will not always show up navicular anyway, as I know a few who have passed and have it quite badly, including someone locally who got in trouble for an insurance scam, bought high powered horses with navic, got them right with one vet, then had them re vetted with diff practice and fully insured them for large sums LOU and then claimed as soon as it showed up again. I also have an SJ mare who won't trot sound on a ten metre circle due to having quite odd feet, she has clean xrays though and is competition fit and out.
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Poor pony hope he recovers soon...
As for insurance. Id say the vet is cover for general work and malpractice by the BVA at the very least.
However I doubt that they would be legally obliged to do anything.Harsh though it sounds ..technically by asking for a full 5 stage vetting you take on the fact that the horse is going to be handled lunged as expected of that type of vetting.....the horse falling over was just bad luck,the type of surface that he fell on again bad luck, but accidents do happen.The vet most likely treated for free because they appreciate clients not because they would be considered legally responsible.
No more than a risk of a tear is when rectal is done,injury is a risk of the procedure.

The car park was the vets failing their duty of care to the client by being negligent and not keeping the surfaces safe for horses.....a horse falling over when lunged is a different story.

Though im no legal eagle im just going on what we have come across in collage.
 
So sorry to hear about your horse. Horribly frustrating!

I have had horses lunged on concrete, but always because we suspected a problem and the vet always asked if I was happy to take the risk. I did the lunging myself as I felt I knew the horses best and had the best chance of slowing them down, but accidents will happen.

I haven't had a vetting on a horse in 3 years so not sure what the usual practice is now, but previously 5 stage vettings did not seem to standardly include lunging on concrete (lunging on a surface to check heart rate after exercise yes, but not on a tight circle on concrete). However, I heard of another horse that was lunged on concrete during the vetting the other day, is this now standard practice for 5 stage vettings?
 
So you'll refuse a full vetting to all future potential buyers? Good luck selling anything, lol.

Jogging a small circle on a firm surface is the most reliable basic test for front feet issues, so it is an important part of vettings. Plus your horse shouldn't really fall over that easily. :rolleyes:
 
Booboos said:
I heard of another horse that was lunged on concrete during the vetting the other day, is this now standard practice for 5 stage vettings?
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I bought a horse two years ago and I specifically asked the vet to lunge the horse on concrete. He said they do it anyway with everything now. :)
 
martlin said:
I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it.

I'm with you on that one, luckily I don't have concrete yard, just hardcore, but I have previously refused to let a vet at a vetting put a dental gag on a 4 yo without sedation, just to have a look at teeth
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Its fair enough that you'd be concerned for your horses they are your pets and it makes perfect sence
....but i do feel the need to defend the vets(ya i know im bias but still) they are just trying to do their job....and to do a 5 stage vetting your ment to cover certain basics...Plus there is a very stong chance that its the vet who will be blamed if all areas arent all covered and something goes wrong further down the line....
Sadly these days its beginning to become a rule of practice to always cover yourself first!because people do sue...
 
I refused to have this done when the vet asked me to lunge Mack on the concrete car park on our livery yard, obvioulsy I understand the need to but was not prepaired to have him slipping and injuring himself, instead we did on hard surface in the yard...on the cobbley stones, which could of made him lame :rolleyes: which I wasnt keen on either, however it needed doing some way or another, anyway he was sound as pound, thankfully.
 
I don't think our vet has ever done this to ay of ours! We've never had any long term soundness issues with any of them either.

I can see wanting to lunge on a firm surface, but why not grass, or gravel? Anyone is welcome to lunge my horse on grass (I lunge in my field, its not flat, and its also a bit bumpy atm!) but I would say no way to lunging on concrete :)
 
Aru said:
Its fair enough that you'd be concerned for your horses they are your pets and it makes perfect sence
....but i do feel the need to defend the vets(ya i know im bias but still) they are just trying to do their job....and to do a 5 stage vetting your ment to cover certain basics...Plus there is a very stong chance that its the vet who will be blamed if all areas arent all covered and something goes wrong further down the line....
Sadly these days its beginning to become a rule of practice to always cover yourself first!because people do sue...
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Is it really necessary though to put a dental gag on? I was happy for it to be lightly sedated to do it if needs must, but I would imagine you can have a good look at the teeth without a gag:o
 
Flame_ said:
Not really, I wouldn't want a horse that fell over if I trotted it round a bend on the road.

It is pretty stupid to lunge on a particularly slippery surface.
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Concrete being, erm, slippy?!!! :D

I wouldn't expect a horse to fall over on the road no, but they do. In walk, mys sisters horse did this and was fine, but my sister broke her collar bone.

A horse (potentially young) lungeing is far more likely to fall on concrete than a horse being ridden and 'controlled' by a rider :rolleyes:
 
Flame_ said:
Not really, I wouldn't want a horse that fell over if I trotted it round a bend on the road.

It is pretty stupid to lunge on a particularly slippery surface.
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I'm totally lost here! Concrete is a particularly slippery surface which is why it is controvercial to lunge on it, hence the point of the post!

If the road had a bend similar to a 10m circle bend personally I would not trot any of mine round it and I don't have particularly clumsy or lame horses.
 
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