Vettings and 10 metre circles on concrete! RANT!

With driving we trot everywhere.

I suppose "firm surface" is what i meant but I expect horses to be able to do a slow trot on a normal road surface and I don't think the vet can be blamed for this horse falling over unless the owner OKed using a surface that they know horses slip everywhere on.
 
It's not about the horse falling over because it can't control its legs, its about slipping.

When concrete warms up in the sun it becomes more slippy.

Not everyone's horses are shod with road studs/nails.

The wear on the shoes will also effect how slippy the concrete will be.

So what may be safe enough for one horse to lunge on concrete, may not be for another.
 
martlin said:
Is it really necessary though to put a dental gag on? I was happy for it to be lightly sedated to do it if needs must, but I would imagine you can have a good look at the teeth without a gag:o
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Im still only a student so havent a hugh amount of experience with dentistry yet....just the basics.

You can get a ok look at the teeth without a gag...if the horse will tolerate it..but if you have a gag why not use it?

Its safer for handler (after all it is the vet whos going to be injured if the horse objects and we are self employed so an injury can mean no woking or income until you recover)
Plus you do get a better look with a gag than without one.
Especially at the back of the mouth where most problems will be missed in a simple exam and while not some horses do object most will tolerate it fairly well..
But then it depends on what you are looking for i guess...and more importantly what the client wants of you :P
A simple exam fair enough...a full one...then if you have a gag use it and do the job right.
 
The vets I use have always talked about lunging on a circle on hard standing not necessarily concrete. So if the only hard surface available is slippery concrete then I would be looking at seeing if the vetting could be done somewhere else.

But as I said before having a horse that on a good day will trot up sound on a straight line on concrete, trot sound on the lunge on a surface and has clean x rays but does show lame on a circle on the hard, it's a test I would want a horse I buy to pass.
 
Oh my god ! .this happened to me last thursday, vet nurse was lunging my horse on concrete blindfolded to study photic headshaking , she fell tried to get up and fell again, i,m now tending to both knees and a nasty graze on her hock, not a happy bunny !!!
 
Lunging on concrete is absolutely vital and criticall to test for lamenesses that you cant see otherwise.

But never EVER lunge on slippery concrete for chrissakes!! Always lunge on some sort of rustic concrete with a light covering of stones /tiny stone gravel. That is perfectly safe.

If you go to any vet hospital they will have this specific surface for the purpose of lunging on hard ground. My horses have been lunged for 10 mins or so on these surfaces and never taken one slip.

Its common sense- a) the vet should never have agreed to lunge your horse on this surface if your particular area of concrete was so slippery and b) next time you have a horse vetted, make sure you have an appropiate area as described above, so that your horse is safe.

It IS safe to do this- owners just have to be more viligant as to what sort of area they are lunging their horses on.
 
This is an interesting discussion.

Two comments:

1) just out of interest, what type of lameness can you catch while lunging in a 10m circle on concrete, that would not be caught while trotting in a straight line following flexion? would be interesting to hear precisely which tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.

2) do you agree that an unshod horse less likely to slip on concrete?
 
_CJ_ said:
This is an interesting discussion.

Two comments:

1) just out of interest, what type of lameness can you catch while lunging in a 10m circle on concrete, that would not be caught while trotting in a straight line following flexion? would be interesting to hear precisely which tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.
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In our case DSIL, DDFT, and collateral ligaments inside the hoof where they can't be xrayed. On the basis of how the lameness presented vet suspected soft tissue damage inside the hoof and MRI confirmed this.

And even on a circle it was subtle - a misstep maybe every 2 or 3 times on each circuit.

But often the sort of issues that vets group under navicular syndrome and Caudal foot pain.
 
tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.
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It's just as likely for foot issues - pedal, navicular, coffin.

I suspect that if I had allowed my horse to be lunged at his vetting on concrete - I would not have bought him, as it would have shown clear bilateral lameness.

More fool me..........
 
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Mine was 5 stage vetted 4 years ago, she wasn't lunged on concrete. I would have remembered!

In fact I had three before her vetted that I turned down and none of those were either.

They did the tight turns, crossing the legs and flexion but no concrete lungeing.

I wonder how many places do have an ideal concrete surface that would be safe to lunge on?
 
What about horses that just won't lunge? My lad is a saint, but becomes satan when he's on the lunge. I'm sometimes dubious about lunging him in the school because he has such a, uh, good time. There is no way in hell I would even contemplate trying to lunge him on concrete!
 
I've had about 8 horses vetted in the past 18 months (as seller) and vets have wanted a 'hard surface' but not concrete! We use the lorry parking area which is well-packed hardcore. Even that can be a bit slippy for a big youngster so I always start them off VERY slowly while they get the hang of it. (all horses passed!)

I would refuse to do this on concrete!
 
Might be being thick but surely trotting up on concrete & taking them in a circle would be to the same effect, but the handler would have more control & be able to make sure the horse is more balanced & doesn't turn to sharply. A 10m circle is ridiculous & I suppose this is standard for a 11hh games pony & a 17hh shire, Stupidity to the max!!!

I would be buggered if any of mine needed a vetting I haven't got a big enogh patch of concrete for that & I wouldn't let them do it anyway!
 
I've had a horse sound on everything else but lame on lunge on 10m circle on concrete because of navicular. HOWEVER, it was very mild and all we did was change his shoes and he continued as before so I think it's all relative and I would not necessarily pull out of a sale because of this.
 
There is a large difference between the effects of trotting in a striaght line on concrete and having equal weight and pressure down each limb. Trotting on a softer surface (like a menage) on the lunge where, although it may flag up major lameness issues on the inside fore normally (but not always!) trotting on the concrete on the lunge puts increased pressure and force on the limb on the inside of the circle and more on the limb on the outside (but obv less than the inner limb) and increased concussive forces (which is why it is often not done for long periods of time)
I agree though should not be done on inappropriate surfaces..... however some places only have what they have and that can make it difficult for the vet as lunging on a hard surface is one of the requirements for a 5 stage vetting.......... if they cant do it, they cant pass the horse........... they can fail it but say it was fine on everything else and you can buy it but it wont have a pass on for insurance, or they can pass it, risk it going horrendously lame after someone buys it and then they get sued!!! (one of/possibly they most common this for an equine vet to get sued for is vettings!) So can't really blame them for trying to complete it....... but then people would be p*ssed if they didnt do it coz of lack of facility or unsafe to do it as then they cannot have the vetting.......

viscious circle! :)

With regards to the teeth............. yes you can view teeth by grabbing the tongue and pulling it out the side of the horses mouth to make it open up....... however, not sure a 4yo would be keen on this either! :)
Also it only really allows you a quick view in there, and not much detail. And quite frequently the worst ramps and hooks are on the back molars and you cannot see those by holding the tongue and so yes the gag is necessary to do a thorough assessment of dentistry :) Plus, it also helps with attitude assessment (ok i know some horses flat out detest the gags.......... but if they become viscious with it etc it is worth being noted before saying o yes the horse is 100% fine! :) )

Vettings are great for the buyer as they flag up any problems with the horse, but are a pain in the arse for sellers sometimes and vets are either really good at them or s**t it because if they miss something or something random happens when the buyer buys then there is a 95% chance they will get sued.......

ahhh aren't I looking forward to graduating next year! ............................
 
So would you say it was a standard of 5 stage vetting to do full dental examination with a gag on?
And why would you refuse to slightly sedate for that if you were informed by the seller (me) that the horse needs sedation for dental work?
ETS: sorry for hijacking the thread
 
amymay said:
No, because the limbs will act and fall differently on a circle.......
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I realsie that;), thats why I was saying for them to trot the horse in a circle but not as tight as 10m & not on a lunge but with a individual handler.

My horse bronks for the first few mins on the lunge that would be nice & safe
 
Sorry no I don't mean the horse has a full dental exam and sort out (obv not :) ) But the gag allows you to see the majority of the teeth and have access to the back molars (which you can't really see that well even with a gag in, and as I say these are often the ones which have problems.

Also the vet couldn't sedate it as a) it would mess up the bloods and b) for trotting up, riding etc it would be unsafe to do it with the horse sedated, even lightly!
 
KatB said:
Lunging on a circle is NOT a compulsory part of a 5 stage vetting. It is completely up to the vet carrying out the vetting.
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It might not be compulsary but its what they are teaching in the collages as standard practice now... the different generation's of vet's however may have a different way of doing things though.

The problem as per usual is the litigation side of things....if the vet doesnt do it then can the horse still be passed as sound on a hard stand surface?
and more importantly, in the vets eyes ;p , can they be sued if they pass a horse as sound and it then comes up lame due to an issue that should have shown up on lunging in that manner...that the vet didnt check when they had the opportunity?

Its true that the vetting is for the day it is done ....but that has never stopped people sueing equine vets over them....
 
Lucy_Nottingham said:
Sorry no I don't mean the horse has a full dental exam and sort out (obv not :) ) But the gag allows you to see the majority of the teeth and have access to the back molars (which you can't really see that well even with a gag in, and as I say these are often the ones which have problems.

Also the vet couldn't sedate it as a) it would mess up the bloods and b) for trotting up, riding etc it would be unsafe to do it with the horse sedated, even lightly!
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Of course he could have sedated it, after all the other parts o vetting were finished and the bloods taken, simples:)
 
sorry what i meant when i said that it was necessary was some practices have policies on what MUST be done by their vets in a vetting..... I wasnt meaning it was THE LAW :) and Aru is right though about it being taught to do it now....

And with regards to sedation and dentals etc I do agree and can see your point on it, but in some cases (not urs but some less than respectable people) the horses teeth will be horrendous and when ridden will be totally unacceptable and it would be the vets responsibility to check that the horse is fit to be ridden before it is so (hence why full physical and lameness work up is done prior to the riding section of a 5 stage vetting) so although I see your point in the majority of cases that wouldn't really be feasible. (But please dont think im saying ur horses teeth wud be unacceptable, thats not wat i am saying! :) )
 
You must be livid. I would be too.

I had a 5 stage vetting last year, when I bought my TB, and the vet didn't do this and explained to me that they don't do this procedure any more on contrete, because it isn't safe.
 
I refused to let a vet do this to my connemara mare as he had already failed her on a flexion test - he then proceeded to carry on with the vetting and took bloods before telling the buyer she would never be good for anything other than hacking. She had slipped in the field 2 weeks before and 2 weeks later was vetted again and was completely sound. This vet also ran a sharp key along her back to see if he could get a reaction, unfortunatley I didn't know he had done this as a friend was in the box with her and I couldn't see what was going on. I told the vet not to come to my yard ever again. I felt sorry for the buyer as the mare was perfect for her daughter and she was being bamboozeled by the vet to complete the vetting in full. I would have stopped it at the flexion if I had known but it was really her call, she was paying. I have heard a lot of unease about this particular vet since then and although I know he is probably in the minority I will now not stand for anything that I consider unfair or unnecessarily unpleasant for my horse, after all it is still my horse until it is bought.
 
My horse has a big walk and can slide in walk on concrete so to trot 10m circles would be an accident waiting to happen.
At our vets they do lunge on hard standing for lameness work ups but it isnt concrete and it is done after the horse has got rid of any over exitement in the menage.
When my horse was vetted (on the previous owners premises), he was trotted up on concrete and he was sliding arround like bambi, he was just 4 at the time and had just had his first set of front shoes on so I suppose he wasnt used to the fact he could slide all over, it was scary.
I do think it is a good indicator to use but concrete isnt the place to do it.
I hope your horse is ok soon.
 
Surely it depends what kind of concrete it is?? As previously posted, the vet clinics have concrete areas for this purpose which has been 'roughed up' to ensure it has some form of grip. Smooth concrete would be far more slippery.

As for putting a dental gag in a 4 yr olds mouth....I dont really understand the problem?? Surely the horse has one in for routine dental treatment anyway??? My 3 year old has had one in several times and hasnt come to any harm???

If you refuse to let your horse be subjected to the tests that the vet wants to carry out, it is surely not 'open to vetting'....or certainly not 5* ones anyway. I wouldnt want to buy a horse that I hadnt seen trotted on a circle on a hard surface, as I have recently seen several horses of friends who appear sound in a straight line, but can barely complete a circle!
 
If your horse has to be sedated for a dental gag then it should be done at the end of the vetting. Many older vets don't use gags at all and just pull the tongue to the side but a broken tooth at the back of the mouth can easily be missed without a proper examination with the gag in.
Of course the purchaser may not wish to payout the additional cost of sedation but that is their choice and the vendor would have to accept the small risks of sedation.
 
\hmmm ....interesting one this - I know the only way my old boy shows up with navicular is on small cirlces on hard ground. Having said that I would not want ANy of my horses lunged on concrete - would rather lose the sale.

Had a VERY expensive horse up for sale few years back. Lady wanted him for endurance. Agreed the price and asked if I was Ok with a 5 point vetting. Said absolutely fine as he was very fit and knew of no problems.

she then proceeded to tell me that she hated watching her vet as it was like watching a baby have its teeth pulled. Asked why. she said because he lunges them until they can hardly stand, the more fit the longer he lunges, dripping sweat and hardly able to breathe!

Promptly told her she wouldnt be buying my horse - if that was what her vet would want to be doing eith MY very fit horse he would be here for hours trying to get him to that point and I did NOT want a quality horse ruined mentally or physically by a sadistic vet!
 
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