Vettings and 10 metre circles on concrete! RANT!

Maisy said:
As for putting a dental gag in a 4 yr olds mouth....I dont really understand the problem?? Surely the horse has one in for routine dental treatment anyway??? My 3 year old has had one in several times and hasnt come to any harm???
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It does, after being sedated. I don't have a problem with putting dental gag on him - after sedation.
 
Who ever said they don't need to be lunged on the hard for a vetting- your completely right, the more old school vets don't do it full stop. Personally I hate the just out of college vets and won't let them any where near my horses (not even the ones from our practice, as they couldn't diagnose a murder). Problems seem to arise when these fresh out of school vets turn up, desperate not to get sued or told off by employers and pull the poor horses apart, just to try and fail them on something. We had one recently who flexioned every joint in the horses leg separately (so thats 2 flexions on each leg), then lunge on the concrete, then in the soft, then ridden work. After ridden work its normally a quick trot up, then bloods and done, BUT NO, not this bloody vet, then it was lunge on the concrete again, then back on the soft then flexions again (twice on each leg again) horse by this point was dead on its feet and wouldn't trot off in hand, she flexioned the hind again and then when he wouldn't trot off pulled him straight back up and reflexioned it. Hey presto, possitive flexion test (you would be too if your leg was yanked and twisted for 2 whole minutes... :/) Vet has then found her excuse to fail horse, client is in tears and gutted. Worst thing was that the horse wasn't being vetted for Badminton, it was too do local unaff to lead up to doing a few intro events next year. This was a vet from a well known horse hospital down south and certainly won't be welcome back at mine. EVER. Said horse flew through a 5* vetting the week after with a more sensible vet and a different happy new owner.
 
please dont paint all new vets with such a bad mark!!!! :D :D :D

Also new vets shouldn't be doing vettings anyway you should be at least 3-5 years out of uni before doing one (in my opion and those of vets I have worked with)

You are right you dont have to do it on concrete, but doing it on a hard surface is a good idea if the facilities are available! if not, then vet should explain to client that they would like to but there is nowhere safe to do it... if buyer is happy with that then the vetting will continue........ in my opinion.........
 
martlin said:
So would you say it was a standard of 5 stage vetting to do full dental examination with a gag on?
And why would you refuse to slightly sedate for that if you were informed by the seller (me) that the horse needs sedation for dental work?
ETS: sorry for hijacking the thread
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All the vets who have vetted horses I've sold (mainly 3 & 4 year olds) HAVE put a gag on for examination - and it's never been a problem. IF a horse was impossible to put a gag on without sedation, I can't see why a vet would refuse to sedate with the owner's consent - IF the potential buyer agreed (They are paying for the vetting) or the vendor offered to pay for sedation. However, if I was having a horse vetted to purchase myself, I would expect the vet to tell me about this 'problem'!
 
natalia said:
Personally I hate the just out of college vets and won't let them any where near my horses (not even the ones from our practice, as they couldn't diagnose a murder). Problems seem to arise when these fresh out of school vets turn up, desperate not to get sued or told off by employers
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That's a dreadfully sweeping statement!! I prefer NOT to have the newly qualified vet if I don't know what's wrong with a horse but in an emergency they can at LEAST administer a 'holding' treatment until a more senior vet can be consulted.

I had just such a situation last week with a mare who'd had a BAD foaling - although in that case I was pretty sure it was pain from bad bruising. Young vet and I discussed his findings - heart rate (high), temperature (normal), gut sounds (normal) etc. and we agreed to treat with anti-inflammatories. I declined his suggestion of a manual examination as 1) I didn't think it was necessary at that stage, and 2) I thought she was too sore to have that sort of 'interference' if it WASN'T necessary. He accepted my view with good grace. :D As it turned out, that treatment did the trick. If I'd waited for senior vet, she'd have been in a LOT of pain for at least another 4 hours! (Although I confess I DID demand senior vet be dragged out of bed 2 years ago rather than accept Junior vet in whom I had no faith - but the mare WAS in dire straits! He saved her!)
 
Is not something I would have thought vets would allow, I know I wouldn't consider it, was it just walk?
 
As a buyer, paying for a 5 stage vetting, I expect to see the horse lunged on a hard surface (a safe one). I would also expect to have the teeth examined properly.
 
A dental examination is not part of a 5 stage vetting, and the VDS actually advise vets not to do it. An estimation of age by dentition is a part but this is better done without a gag so that you can actually see the front teeth.

I don't lunge horses on a concrete when I do vettings because of the risk of them falling (which is well recognised). I do agree however that it is important to see them lunged on a hard surface as circling does show up lameness that may not be apparent on the straight.

Unfortunately purchasers have to accept that a 5 stage vetting is a limited examination done on a single day and cannot detect every problem that may or may not crop up at sometime in the future. A basic 5 stage vetting is potentially quite a simple examination, but because of purchasers' expectations vets are getting more and more defensive in the way they perform them to avoid getting criticised/sued, which results in more and more minor problems resulting in horses going unsold.
 
If the horse that I had vetted a few months ago had been lunged on a hard surface, I believe it would of shown up problems, and we wouldnt of ended up buying a horse who ended up lame and with a bad back within weeks. if I paid for a 5 stage vetting, I would expect now, in hindsight for it to be lunged on a hard surface.
 
GreedyGuts - so do you not assess the dentition (not aging, just assess the general state of the teeth) for a 5 stage? the ones i have seen (still currently a student!) have all done this. Is this likely to be practice policy then rather than one of the requirements?
 
With regard to 'new' vets, we have always been happy to see them. When our all time favourite vet retired (sob sob) he and his wife sent us a card thanking us for helping them to train their new vets over the years! :) We always knew that if we disagreed with the diagnosis, or the treatment, we could call the main man for a second opinion. Over the years we (or the poor horses) have had to put up with a rasped tongue (the most co-operative 14.3 cob in the world), a variety of patronising young people and some pretty silly questions, however we felt that they needed a training ground and we knew THE vet would sort out any major problems, we also knew that he would ask us how they had gone on the next time we saw him.
There is a local very good local horsewoman who uses a very well respected local practice, BUT has the numbers of two of the vets and absolutely refuses to use any of the others, or even speak to the receptionist! They still go out to her though :)
 
gosh i hope i get to work with constructive clients like urself! I am dreading going to a ayrd and having the clients that go: O ur new aren't you.... i want X sorry.......

it'll be like....... erm....... ok...... but im here now?! :)
 
Lucy_Nottingham said:
gosh i hope i get to work with constructive clients like urself! I am dreading going to a ayrd and having the clients that go: O ur new aren't you.... i want X sorry.......

it'll be like....... erm....... ok...... but im here now?! :)
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Lucy you'll be fine, just remember that a really experienced horse person knows more about horses, particularly their own, than you do. Treat us with respect and most of us will return it.
 
LOL I think some of them dreaded coming to us on the first visit, I'm not sure what they were told as they left the surgery, but more than one looked terrified as they drove into the yard! Especially if they had got lost on the way (which most people do!). I have always thought that THE vet and his wife (who was his head nurse) set the poor souls up to be at least worried about us, possibly by telling them that we would be reporting back! (Mind you t'was true 'cos we did)
 
Re what the point is of lunging on a hard surface...

I bought a mare with low heels/flat feet and my vet (technically old school as is in his 50s) wanted her lunged (trot 10m circle) on concrete as he said it's "the most extreme test that can be done for low heels". No problems with it. I understand peoples concerns with it but do view it as an essential part of the vetting process as it will highlight potential areas for concern that work on a large circle/"good" surface or trotting up in a straight line even after flexion tests won't
 
Gosh Natalia - what a horrible statement to make. Im glad I dont have any clients like you! having qualified a year ago and attended numerous serious accidents/cases (inc RTAs) I have yet to meet anyone like you. No-one has turned me away on the basis of my age, nor complained that I am incompetent or useless (as you describe new-grads to be) - Im sure competent new grads are not in the minority either! Perhaps if you were more tolerant of those VETS they would perform better in your presence. I count myself lucky!!
 
- Back to the topic - I would be of the opinion that trotting on concrete would not be ideal, its more usual for it to be done on hard standing such as a gravel surface over concrete (as long as its not deep). In fact im not sure I have ever seen a vetting trotted on concrete. In our clinic, the receptionists inform vendors/purchasers that certain facilities are required for vetting and if these are not availabe then horse should be moved somehwhere suitable or to the clinic (where we have a good hard-standing lunge area).
 
I hope I won't be in too deep (hoping i get an equine job when i graduate!) as have been round horses....... forever! and therefore also all sorts of "horsey people" but also learnt not to take people for granted and also remember some clients take what you say and twist it to make "drama"........

one vet I worked with is lovely and we went to see a horse that had lami and basically it was a welsh D show cob and it was massively obese........ the owner asked for opinions on weight (before we got to talking about treatment/management changes etc) and the vet said that he could do with losing a little and suggested management/feed changes etc and explained how this would help with the lami etc.

Next day I was with one of the partners, this owner rang up screaming about the fact the other vet had said her horse "was grossly obese" "a porker" "was disgusting" etc etc............ partner was very good, then asked me if it was true once off the phone and I had to be honest and say no...... but he said its quite normal for that client to do that unless he or the other partner go out.............

that is the kind of client i am dreading!!! (hoping you will all be nice to me though! :D )
 
mtj said:
trotting circles on concrete shows up bilateral lameness that isn't visible trotting in a straight line.
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I'll just add my two pence worth :rolleyes:

My horse is sound in a straight line, but is crippled lame on the lunge on the hard. When i come you buying another horse i will insist to see it lunged on the hard.

Sorry to hear about your experience OP.
 
Well glenruby, turn up to most yards with that attitude and you will feed the prejudice! Turn up at my yard with that attitude and you would leave immediately. I would then ring the partner/s and complain about you and your manner.
 
Yorksg- fully agree, vet with that attitude would be chased off with a pitchfork and surgery rang and fully moaned about. I have my reasons for requesting the more experienced vets at the practice, we have a lot of horses so to have something misdiagnosed can severly stuff us up (recent case of when young vet said a horse had strangles comes to mind, it had a infected bite from a tick, but thats another story.)
 
Why? Because I believe that a client shouldnt be prejudiced against a vet just because they look young? If they are competent - or have been given the opportunity to be then then age should not be a problem. If they have been proven incompetent or are not up to the job in-hand then thats a different story.
Im lucky, i have excellent back-up and supportive colleagues, but am also capable of working up a case - and my clients know that I can AND WILL ask my more experienced colleagues for advise (and history if Im not familiar with the animal). Therefore, any horse etc is at no greater risk in my hands than in the hands of any other vet in my practice. I have gone on numerous calls to clients who have called my boss directly and begged him to see ther sick horse. He has often sent me in his place reassuring the client that I will look after their horse/pony to a high standard of care (and owner too!) and each and every one of he has had a phone call from tha night/the next day to say how pleased they were with my attitude and the care i have given their pony and that they would be more than happy for me to see their pony again.
Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice - they should have basic competencies upon leaving college that will not allow them to miss basic/important signs of diease and any good practice will have a support system in place that will ensure the best care is given to the horses they treat.
 
For the record I have a number of lrge yards, racing yards and competition yards for whom I do a lot of the main work, routines, vaccs, foaling checks, lameness exams etc.
I am not aggressive, nor patronising nor incompetent but frankly just get sick of hearing (and especially reading on this forum) complaints about vets - particularly against young vets. Absolutely no problem if this is because a particular individual is rude or incompetent but to generalise and suggest all new grads are incompetent rude etc is wrong. I understand looking for a senior vet in a genuinely serious siuation or perhaps in a lameness work-up but in most situations that should not be required.
 
One skill is customer relations, another I would have thought would have been the ability to read! If you read my posts, I have welcomed young vets and been thanked by partner/s. One of the skills of any profession where you deal with the public is to speak politely, sometimes even in the face of hostility, not to get on your high horse and tell people how much more than them you know! That attitude will not stand you in good stead with most horse people (might be ok with some horse owners admittedly)
 
New vet for routine work fine, vacs would be fine. However, I won't have anyone do horses teeth but proper EDT, this is due to surprise surprise a new vet trying to do a pony I had a few years ago, who she spent about an hour on, went home, pony was a fruitcake and very thin and we sold him for meat money (we had his teeth done as I felt there was a problem there and this could have been cause, but couldn't get hold of normal dentist fast enough). New owners rang us a month later to say that they had had a proper EDT out to him who had to sedate him and had said he had some of the worst teeth he had ever seen and had to have extensive dental work. After this pony was sane, rideable and putting weight on and winning in the ring. This was a top class pony, who was JA pott. who we ended up selling for peanuts as vet didn't do his teeth properly and told us they were "fine". FYI she no longer works for the practice. I personally feel that new vets should be on a probation period where more difficult cases are undertaken with senior vets, ie first visits to new problems as it would stop a lot of hassle.
 
Just to go back to the original thread.. when Goose was put through a 5 * some 4 years ago, he was lunged on a hard surface on a 10m circle by a lovely and very old school vet... so its not just newbies!

He had his first lame hop in the school on Saturday. Took him out, trotted him up, nothing showed, YO put him on a circle outside the yard - could see immediately he was hopping. Turned out to be nothing major, he had managed to slice a small piece of frog so was poulticed then padded up the following day.
 
I don't see how anyone can generalise from one case. A vet can be bad because they are young and inexperienced, or elderly and out of date with modern practices, or middle-aged and uncaring, but why turn this into a generalisation for everyone who happens to resemble the person who annoyed you/harmed your horse?

For what it's worth our current vet was right out of Uni when he first came to us, but he cared for the horses from the first day and that makes a huge difference. He has never scared of saying if he needed to consult with colleagues, he always arrived with a book on the more complex stuff and talked me through what he was planning to do and he is willing to listen! He is now a partner but partners don't grow on trees, they grow out of newly qualified vets!
 
Off topic but I'd just like to add that there are thorough, enthusiastic vets and there are dismissive, generally useless vets. IME this runs about equally amongst new vets, experienced vets and ancient vets.

I'd include any vet nowadays that on request from a buyer didn't check for lameness on a circle on a firm surface among the useless, as heel pain is such a common problem. I wouldn't be surprised if the insurance doesn't insist on it as part of the vetting. If they don't, they very soon will.
 
Yorks - and I did not see anything wrong wth what you had said. Feedback is a good thing. I then found it strange that you had a go at me based on my responseto another poster. From re-reding my post I can only assume that the "offending " part was VETs in caps. That was because, in natalia's previos post she (IMO) appeared to refer to them in v derogatory terms. After 5 years of study (and for many 20+ years of equine experience) I do think ANY vet (infact nyone) who is asked to your yard (regardless of age) is entitled to reasonable treatment. If they are then found to be incompetent - treat them as you wish. But remember the old saying - you cant tell a book by its cover.

Natalia - in most good practices, new grads are treated as such and yes its agood thing, but time restraints and financial constraints means it isnt always feasible. Also different people learn and become competent at different rates. A basic clinical exam and colic exam or stitch up is a basic entry level requirement in practice.However, most other procedures will be first performed in the presence of a senior vet ( for example - nerve and joint blocks, castrations, peritoneal and joint taps). I would agree that all of the above should not be carried out by a new graduate for the furst time without supervision. However bear in mind that a young vet who is "new" to th practice may have been workin in another practice for a period of time and then be expected to be upto a minimum standard by their new practice (and thereby may not be as closely watched while still not quite being capable of carrying out certain procedures unguided).
 
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