Vettings and 10 metre circles on concrete! RANT!

glenruby said:
I understand looking for a senior vet in a genuinely serious siuation or perhaps in a lameness work-up but in most situations that should not be required.
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Don't feel offended glenruby, but at the end of the day, if I'm the paying CUSTOMER, I will request presence of any vet I bl@@dy please... My reasons don't have to be known, it doesn't matter, if I want X I will request for X to come out, end of.
 
Of course - and during daylight hours if he or she has time to see your horse thats perfectly reasonable - but even the best vets are entitled to some sleep - so if your horse colics in the middle of the night and aother vet is on call (and im not necessarily talking about a more junior vet being on call here) - then Im afraid, for the most part, the client would have to deal with the vet that turns up (and client is of course always entitled to ask for referral etc). Or am I wrong? Would you still expect your vet to turn up on his night off? Maybe have him out if your horse needs a recheck but otherwise Im sure another similarly qualified vet would suffice in those circumstances...?
 
Vets seem to be damned whatever they do. If they don't lunge a horse on a hard surface, they get sued if the horse turns out to be lame later (regardless of who wins, it isn't nice!). If they do, the current owner thinks that they are endangering the horse, and considers them incompetent!

Concrete can be slippy if dry and dusty - the place I ride always wets the yard before a ride comes in if it's dry, to minimise the slip potential.

It can be difficult to tell how experienced (or how old) a vet is. My OH is 33 and more than 6 years qualified - he still gets taken for a student at first sight - when he gets out the car, before he's even been near a horse (and gets ID'd from time to time for buying alcohol (admittedly we both do!))

If no-one but the "senior" vet will do, how do you cope when they retire, or go on holiday, or just have the flu. Most vets discuss cases with colleagues a lot - OH gets lots of calls from colleagues when he's not on call (or is on holiday) to check they are doing the right thing with horses, and OH will call the equine partner if he has any doubts about things, and will read around anything complex, just to check he's not missing something. For more complex cases, he's got a network of contacts, from CPD, university, seeing practice and previous referrals who he can phone up and ask questions (often free of charge).

There's not that many equine vets around (under 5000 in the UK rings a bell) and given that up until now there were only 6 vet schools (and adding one more won't make a huge difference) people tend to get to know each other making a decent support network.
 
Exactly wishful - and any Tier 2 prctices will have to have regular "audits" of cases/incidents as well as practice meetings where cases are discussed. In our practice cases are discussed everyday - everyone is quite familiar with any ongoing case regardless of whether or not they have yet been involved with them. I regularly cht with the other vets at my practice and ring them for advice. Many clients welcome this. And they know that if its really necessary, another vet will come out to assist with a case.
The other day my boss offered to comeout to assist me on a particular call - I accepted his offer but was fairly happy to do it myself. In the end he didnt make it but eveything went well and he was very pleased with the results (and the client was v happy too). If I had been stuck he would have been there but it wasnt necessary.
 
glenruby said:
Of course - and during daylight hours if he or she has time to see your horse thats perfectly reasonable - but even the best vets are entitled to some sleep - so if your horse colics in the middle of the night and aother vet is on call (and im not necessarily talking about a more junior vet being on call here) - then Im afraid, for the most part, the client would have to deal with the vet that turns up (and client is of course always entitled to ask for referral etc). Or am I wrong? Would you still expect your vet to turn up on his night off? Maybe have him out if your horse needs a recheck but otherwise Im sure another similarly qualified vet would suffice in those circumstances...?
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Before we moved, I was in the very fortunate situation of having 3 vets in my local practice that I 'liked', so one of them would always be available, in fact, my favourite one didn't seem to sleep, eat or go on holidays:D
Nowadays my vet is a one man band, so there is no another partner/junior vet whoever to come out instead - how he copes, God only knows, but he manages to get to me in 20 minutes tops! I'm not sure if I should admit it, but he supplies me with 'emergency supplies' of finadyne, buscopan, bute and ABs as well as whole array of livestock drugs - this supply is here in case of his delay in an emergency...
 
cptrayes said:
Lucy you'll be fine, just remember that a really experienced horse person knows more about horses, particularly their own, than you do. Treat us with respect and most of us will return it.
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glenruby
I would suggest that you take this advice - it is very good!

"Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice - they should have basic competencies upon leaving college that will not allow them to miss basic/important signs of diease and any good practice will have a support system in place that will ensure the best care is given to the horses they treat."

I think you will find that that is the view of those experienced horse people who have reason to object to newly qualified vets attending their animals.

I'm afraid if someone with a year's qualified experience came onto my yard with the attitude you have shown in your posts in this thread, s/he would be asked to leave immediately.

"For the record I have a number of lrge yards, racing yards and competition yards for whom I do a lot of the main work, routines, vaccs, foaling checks, lameness exams etc.
having qualified a year ago and attended numerous serious accidents/cases (inc RTAs) I have yet to meet anyone like you."

I'm afraid that I do not consider this to be a broad enough experience to diagnose anything but the very common/routine problems. I would hope that if you are asked to attend a serious accident etc that after the immediate first aid you would ask for help from a more senior practitioner, as you in fact said yourself "Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice". I quite agree that we all have to learn but I do not expect to pay for the privilege of having some-one make mistakes on MY animals. I have learned through bitter experience that the best vets will say "I'm not sure but I will find out" Whilst the worst ones stand by their first thought, whatever the outcome.

Incidentally, I am rather surprised at the low standard of spelling demonstrated by vets/students on this thread. Surely accuracy is essential when writing a prescription at least?
 
All professions have the curse of the newly qualified! It takes some time to realise that there is much more that you don't know than that you do! My own profession has the same curse tbh.
The problems I have encountered with newly qualified vets have led to the deaths of two of my horses. These vets were not at the practice where THE vet was the owner, and were allowed too much autonomy for their knowledge base.
 
Ah, but then you dont have a problem with unwanted vets do you?? :D
I suppose the only positive to being on call every night in a one vet band is that its not likely to be too busy as its a smaller client base - but still when they all call you at oce you are screwed!! ;)
 
glenruby said:
Ah, but then you dont have a problem with unwanted vets do you?? :D
I suppose the only positive to being on call every night in a one vet band is that its not likely to be too busy as its a smaller client base - but still when they all call you at oce you are screwed!! ;)
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LOL! he always seems to be dropping everything to come to me immediately, must scared of my wrath or something:eek::D
The thing is, everybody seems to be using the poor sod, I have no idea how he copes, especially in lambing/calving season:confused:
 
martlin said:
LOL! he always seems to be dropping everything to come to me immediately, must scared of my wrath or something:eek::D
The thing is, everybody seems to be using the poor sod, I have no idea how he copes, especially in lambing/calving season:confused:
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We work hard to obtain "rottwieler" status!
 
The spelling mistakes in my posts are due to faulty buttons and dyslexia (therefore missing letters/disorered rather than mistakes). After a long days work/night on call - my splling on a forum is not my biggest priority.
As for attitude, as has been said repeatedly on this forum, its very difficult to correctly assess how poster intends their post to be read. Nothing I have posted was written in a "holier than thou" mentality - which some of you seem to have found.
Of course I have back up, many resources and as i said earlier discuss my cases daily with the other vets. If i feel I cannot get to the bottom of something or am not satisfied that I am making a difference, then I do not hesitate to get another vet to examine/take over if necessary.
As for the emergency situation. I am competent to initially assess a patient following injury/illness. All of the vets I know ask for another vet to help with stabilising/diagnosing/treating etc in the case of emergencies. I am no different. Of course not. I do not profess to be able to do everything - I merely say that I ( and i blieve the majority of ther new grads) are capable of assessing the situation and carrying out a clinical exam/administering first aid and pain relief in those sort of situations.
 
glenruby, I am pleased to read this, (post above) the tone is very different from the one which sparked this debate. Please be aware that many of the posters on this thread, including me, have reason to dislike perceived arrogance in newly qualified vets. The 'older' horsepeople will have seen many illnesses, which the newly qualified have only read about, one of the ways for any professional to devlop their skills and knowledge is to listen to those who know through expereince. I frequently am involved in the training of junior medics, their initial belief that their knowledge surpases that of all others, is always brought crashing down and then they have to suffer the indiginity of asking for help. This would be much better for them and patients if they started off by knowing that they don't know it all. :)
 
glenrubyand Lucy_Nottingham

You missed out 'female' and newly qualified. Everybody run for the hills...
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natalia said:
We work hard to obtain "rottwieler" status!
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But not too hard! In some cases it comes naturally:D:D:D

glenruby, may I recommend the spellcheck function which is provided on this new forum format.

QR
One of the best vets I have known was terrified of horses (although always willing to come out) but a fantastic clinician. He very often left us, having made a diagnosis and recommended treatment, to go and read up as much as possible about the particular illness, even if only to confirm his original opinion. We did have many a laugh at his expense, which he knew, but would never have refused to allow him to treat our horses because he approached us as partners in the treatment of our animals.
 
yorksG said:
glenruby, I am pleased to read this, (post above) the tone is very different from the one which sparked this debate. Please be aware that many of the posters on this thread, including me, have reason to dislike perceived arrogance in newly qualified vets. The 'older' horsepeople will have seen many illnesses, which the newly qualified have only read about, one of the ways for any professional to devlop their skills and knowledge is to listen to those who know through expereince. I frequently am involved in the training of junior medics, their initial belief that their knowledge surpases that of all others, is always brought crashing down and then they have to suffer the indiginity of asking for help. This would be much better for them and patients if they started off by knowing that they don't know it all. :)
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The perceived "arrogance" could also be a front, an act to help the vet not feel utterly terrified that they are going to the 'scary' client who knows everything and might try and get them to do something that could get them struck off - one of the main things any professional training involves is scaring the trainees about how many ways they can be struck off! It takes a while for the training scare stories to be watered down by experience...

Being a vet is a vocation (no one in their right mind would do it for the money or the lifestyle!) so the majority care about doing the best possible for their patients, and balancing the financial/emotional needs of the owner with what is in the best interest of the animal - hence the "is he insured" question - the possibility of a referral is relevant to the treatment of a lot of cases, especially somewhere like here, where the nearest hospital which regularly sees colic cases is at least 1 hour away in a horse box, so it's often safer to refer early if there's any possibility of the colic being surgical. Similarly with wounds on/near a joint which need flushing, an insured horse will generally be referred to a more specialist surgeon/hospital for a GA while where cost is an issue, there is enough expertise in house to carry out a standing joint flush.

One of the big difficulties for vets straight out of university is that universities are generally referral centres, so you will see more uncommon diseases than common ones! It's all to easy to start thinking that the uncommon things are more common than the "usual" ones because that's what you see most of...

Also, surely in a dire emergency, a young, fresh, not too tired pair of eyes can be better than someone with bags of experience who's been called out every night for a week. I know I feel tired when the phone goes in the middle of the night and I just roll over and go back to sleep until OH reappears - I hate to think what state a single handed vet would be in after a week of 1am foalings!
 
Wishful, have you ever heard the song about never seeing a farmer on a bike :)
Other professions are also seen as vocations, work long hours, do many years training and earn a fraction of what vets earn. It is that type of comment which helps to allienate others.

Wonky_Donkey not vet bashing, stating ex0periences and suggesting a little humility is in order from some newly qualified professionals.
 
TBH I think vettings in general are a load rubbish. We never bother (we buy cheapies) but can understand what is ok and what is not. Have known lots of horses that have passed and then been knackered within months and also ones that have failed but have gone on for years!

Friend of a friend had one vetted and the vet said it passed but didn't think it would stand up to the work (not a lot) because it didn't have enough bone! They didn't buy it.. looked like a lovely horse to me!!
 
Last thing i am going to add - Wishful is dead on with the " perceived arrogance" part - if all new grads went out on a call with their head hung low, and lacking self confidence (or at least a front that appears similar) then no one would ever let them set foot in their yards. Plus its the one thing the boss was wary of when taking on a new grad - that they wouldnt be able to handle the difficult clients - he has been pleasantly surprised. And to be fair, most clients that have diagnosed their own horses lameness/illness when I speak to them on the phone have been wrong. How many times does a vet get called out to horse with a fracured leg/sifle injury to find the horse has a whopping great foot abscess - its at least a weekly occurrence! The best thing is indeed to work with the owner (who knows the horse best and can give you a better insight to what is normal for the particular horse) to find out whats wrong. Also - I would think EVERY young vet (and most older ones) does read up on any case they are not sure of or havent come across before - I certainly do, its how we broaden our knowledge. I would expect nothing less from a vet - if they dont contact you afterwards to tell you they have gathered further information then its because they gave you the right instructions the first time I would think.

Also as for Junior doctors being the same - I have many friends and acquaintances who are doing/have recently qualified as doctors - their self confidence and arrogance is incomparable to that of ANY recently qualified vet I know.
 
I know that the vet profession is losing vets rapidly - quite a few are becoming doctors, going into the city, having kids and coming back part time or not at all. In 20 years time, there could well be a hole in the number of "senior" vets as so many are not sticking it out now. There already seems to be a bit of a gap in the age demographic of vets around there. There are quite a lot of junior vets in their 20s and early 30s, and there are a good number in their late 40s up. Theres' very few aged between 35 and 45 - signs of an issue.

I know that there are other vocations less well paid than vets, but the issue is that people who have the academic ability to get into vet school are generally the most desireable graduates for any profession (straight As, focussed, quick thinking and logical). Exactly what the big banks, law firms and accountancy firms want. A cynical student (and their pushy parents) would consider those options, compare hours and rates of pay and take a decision based on money, and the fact that for most of those, you are earning (or at least funded) in half the time. The comparison with the medical profession is even more direct - similar skill set (diagnostics, bedside manner, science). A newly qualified GP gets paid about treble what a newly qualified vet gets, and doesn't have to do out of hours. The NHS also pays some tuition fees. With top up fees, the average vet student doing vet as a first degree will end up with £30k of student loan - a mature student doing vet as a second degree will probably double that. Thus the vet profession ends up recruiting the idealistic students, some of whom will end up so disillusioned that they leave after 5 years of being accused of being too young, or "not my vet"! How disheartening do you think that is for someone who has worked hard for something they've wanted for a large proportion of their life?

Some vets have made the error of adding up their working hours, and dividing their gross salary by the number of hours (ignoring out of hours work) - generally you can make more at McDonalds, or any other minimum wage work. Think the worst mentioned has been £2.70/hour, before tax! And people wonder why vets have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession...

Of course everyone assumes that vets are loaded, because they generally have big, relatively new cars. The only vets who seem to think they have enough space for stuff (to be prepared for most eventualities) have big double cab pick ups. Older cars won't hold up to the work - 30k miles per year on back roads, heavily laden tends to kill cars very efficiently. OH's 06 Honda needs retiring pretty soon - on 120k miles - still looks relatively new on the outside, but mechanically it is suffering!
 
I apologise for my spelling!! basically i type quick and if im honest....... didnt really think it was a huge problem on here (of course in professional circumstances I would be much more thorough! :) )

Wishful........ we are the one more vet school!! :D hi! :D we also are not hospital based, we are first opinion based (our rotations are majoritally 1st opinion with some (enough! Not minimalistic) hospital/referal work) as they feel we should be well established in basic/common things occuring commonly problems, diseases, presentations etc.... which works well for me as my aim is to be a really good first opinion ambulatory equine practitioner :) (not setting bar to high right?! ;) )

I hope my people skills will come across when i set foot on a yard, so far everyone has been very welcoming and happy to let me do basic things e.g. blood sample and vaccinate etc their horses as a student (which has helped my confidence in my skills and abilities no end and I always ensure I show my gratitude afterwards). So this has also given me hope that most clients will be happy with me as a new graduate for most thing but i agree a new graduate should not be doing more complex procedures (e.g. joint taps etc) without a senior practitioner/partner there (and i wouldn't want to do it without them at first! TBH I am terrified of getting sued so I want to do as much as possible to avoid it! Although i doubt most people go out with the intention of..... lol)

I think everyone seems to have good points from 2 different sides of a fence here........ but Id also like people to remember that we (new grads... including me in 12mnths!) won't improve and become the good senior vets you like and respect so much if you don't allow us to do anything with your horses.... I agree really scary/difficult cases you will feel much happier with a senior practitioner there and doing it, but we may be there as well for experience, assistance etc... I personally hope I am given a chance on most yards to prove myself as the caring, polite person I hope I am... and get to show the owners/clients that the animals health and welfare etc IS my main priority and Im not just out to have a go at sticking X, Y and Z in them to see what happens! :)

God graduating is going to be scary!! :)
 
Lucy_Nottingham said:
I apologise for my spelling!! basically i type quick and if im honest....... didnt really think it was a huge problem on here (of course in professional circumstances I would be much more thorough! :) )

Wishful........ we are the one more vet school!! :D hi! :D we also are not hospital based, we are first opinion based (our rotations are majoritally 1st opinion with some (enough! Not minimalistic) hospital/referal work) as they feel we should be well established in basic/common things occuring commonly problems, diseases, presentations etc.... which works well for me as my aim is to be a really good first opinion ambulatory equine practitioner :) (not setting bar to high right?! ;) )

I hope my people skills will come across when i set foot on a yard, so far everyone has been very welcoming and happy to let me do basic things e.g. blood sample and vaccinate etc their horses as a student (which has helped my confidence in my skills and abilities no end and I always ensure I show my gratitude afterwards). So this has also given me hope that most clients will be happy with me as a new graduate for most thing but i agree a new graduate should not be doing more complex procedures (e.g. joint taps etc) without a senior practitioner/partner there (and i wouldn't want to do it without them at first! TBH I am terrified of getting sued so I want to do as much as possible to avoid it! Although i doubt most people go out with the intention of..... lol)

I think everyone seems to have good points from 2 different sides of a fence here........ but Id also like people to remember that we (new grads... including me in 12mnths!) won't improve and become the good senior vets you like and respect so much if you don't allow us to do anything with your horses.... I agree really scary/difficult cases you will feel much happier with a senior practitioner there and doing it, but we may be there as well for experience, assistance etc... I personally hope I am given a chance on most yards to prove myself as the caring, polite person I hope I am... and get to show the owners/clients that the animals health and welfare etc IS my main priority and Im not just out to have a go at sticking X, Y and Z in them to see what happens! :)

God graduating is going to be scary!! :)
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Well said Lucy. I'ma serial lurker here but feel compelled to reply here. The "new vet bashing debate" has been going on for longer than you have probably been in horses, so don't take it personally. I know you professionally in the equine industry (I taught you a couple of years ago ;) ) and I would have total confidence in your ability as a vet.I'm sure however you have been taught at uni about the different types of horse owners - you will meet some who view their horse as a child and will call you out in a panic if Teddy doesn't eat his tea, and you'll come onto some large professional yards like mine where we will have told you the entire clinical case history and what the horse needs in terms of treatment before you get out of your car!!
I hope most people have the decency to keep their opinions about newly qualified vets to their kitchen tables and internet forums, and to treat you with the same professionalism as you do to them.

Regarding spelling - Lucy is a very bubbly, enthusiastic girl and this does come across in her typing on forums, emails to me, etc - I've never even noticed the "lack of correct spelling" some posters have highlighted, to me as I read it I can hear Lucys voice and energy exactly!
 
Wow! If I was a Vet I would stick to cats and budgies, at least the owners aren't as likely to use a pitchfork.... ;)

I have to say that I disagree that "a very experienced horseperson" will know more about horses that a Vet. I think it is a very sweeping statement and certainly something which makes people think *bloody horseowners* after speaking to them. Many horseowners or horsepeople know A LOT about horses, particularly their own when it comes to their behaviour and peculiarities but Vets STUDY horses- anatomy, physiology, disease, handling. They come out of College with open minds and are greeted by horsepeople who have been "doing things this way for 40 years" and are closed to suggestion.

People who are closed to suggestion and have been doing things the same way for 20/30/40 years MAY have been doing things WRONG for this amount of time and to think that their way is the only way and not consider changing because new information has been discovered/researched is doubly arrogant. My qualified Farrier and Equine Dentist (let's not start those arguments again) are rather arrogant but I actually quite like that demeanor in a professional as long as they are also prepared to accept that I also know something about horses and discuss things in a professional way.

My Vet is fantastic, I have no idea how old she is- possibly mid 30's? I trust her to come with an open mind and discuss all eventualities with me, also respecting other professionals who can help.

With regards to lunging on hard ground- I would expect to have this done in a vetting but again, would expect that it be done in a safe way which probably would not involve slippery concrete. Probably a bad call from your Vet but I might have insisted that it be done elsewhere.
 
Wishful, a new GP will have done two years rotation as a house officer post qualifying and two years rotation with specialisation as a GP trainee, so not entirely comparable with a Vet graduate who goes straight into practice following graduation.
I have not been 'bashing' newly graduated vets, my comments were in response to posters on this thread. The comments about the 'best' students are again the sort of thing which puts off other people. While I accept that the accademic qualifications to enter vet school are high, they are for other courses as well, or even, shock horror, people with good grades, choose to follow the other vocations as well.
A lot of the professions are now having the same demographic problems, with the health and social care professions looking at a huge problem in the next 10-15 years, there are so very few in the 35-45 age bracket, when the older lot retire there is almost no-one left to take over :(
 
Any vetting is not a nice process but if it shows up lameness by a simple test then I'm all for it! I had a 3 year old that the new owner wanted vetting, the vet asked for her to do some tight circles on concrete and she slipped a bit after losing her balance which then resulted in a slight lameness and she failed the vetting. Luckily her new owner decided that she was still going to buy her and all is well and we are in contact at least once a week for updates. Can see it both angles really.:)
 
yorksG said:
Wishful, a new GP will have done two years rotation as a house officer post qualifying and two years rotation with specialisation as a GP trainee, so not entirely comparable with a Vet graduate who goes straight into practice following graduation.
I have not been 'bashing' newly graduated vets, my comments were in response to posters on this thread. The comments about the 'best' students are again the sort of thing which puts off other people. While I accept that the accademic qualifications to enter vet school are high, they are for other courses as well, or even, shock horror, people with good grades, choose to follow the other vocations as well.
A lot of the professions are now having the same demographic problems, with the health and social care professions looking at a huge problem in the next 10-15 years, there are so very few in the 35-45 age bracket, when the older lot retire there is almost no-one left to take over :(
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I've worked in the city and seen how the city firms recruit - let's just say that vet schools are on their target list, and they are very good at selling the life! I also have pushy parents. Pushy parents look at the £££s and push their child away from things that don't pay as well - being a vet student means longer before you get paid, you can't earn in the holidays as you have to do unpaid work experience (you got paid £300 per week plus expenses for law firm work experience, more for other city summer associates). I was told in no uncertain terms that I could not try for a job where I wouldn't be able to support myself once I left university (i.e. Bar training) becuase my parents didn't want to support me as a junior barrister. There would have been resistance to doing post graduate qualifications as well unless completely funded. A lot of families will push kids away from being a vet because of the level of debt it will incur (5 years of uni, limited ability to do paid work in holidays) and the time before earning.

When I was at school looking at Degree courses, Vet, Medicine, Cambridge/Oxford and law at about 3 other universities specified 3 As as their minimum requirement. The vet courses are probably also the most over-subscribed - other than some specific (and much smaller courses).

I can see there being a major recruitment issue in the medium term. If the working time directive comes into full force, there will be major issues in the veterinary provision in this country. More vets will be needed to do the same amount of work (where are we going to find them?) or all vets will have to become partners.

Yes, an NQ vet is not the same as a new GP. But 6 years after leaving university, when they are fully qualified, they have had some substantial step ups in salary. Vets only get step changes in salary when they make partner, if they can afford to put up the capital for that in the first place. GPs also do little or no out of hours work, deal with one species only, and don't even have to put in stitches, do X-rays or much other than diagnosing and prescribing.
 
If the vet courses are over subscribed, then surely that means there will be more of them? I do not doubt what you are saying, but it still does not make it appropriate for some newly qualified vets to be arrogant. As I have said in previous posts, I have no problem with newly qualified vets, except those who arrive with the attitude that all horse owners are stupid, know nothing and should be greatful for the new vet bothering to turn up! As vetinary practices are buisinesses, it would suggest to me that a bit of customer service is required, along with vetinary knowledge. At the beginning of this thread I had little problem with young vets, the approach of those 'defending' young vets has actually made me more wary of them!
 
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