Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

Wagtail said:
That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.
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Exactly and the phrase well timed is the important thing. Why wait until the horse is being this bad, sort out bad behaviour as it comes up and keep the horse having nice manners. Ignoring it for a week is a complete waste of time. Personally I do not smack or slap my horses, I would elbow strategically for an attempted bite or barge and I use a pressure halter to train them on the ground. Once they are trained there is no problem with manners in my experience, but I never let them slip and insist on good behaviour all the time.

If QB had originally said she was going to nip this behaviour in the bud and get firm with him, instead of the original language, I don't think anyone would have disagreed.

The most important thing with training any animal is consistency and fairness. Like if you let your dog jump on you 6 days a week you cannot shout at it when it jumps on your best suit for church...
 
FfionWinnie said:
If QB had originally said she was going to nip this behaviour in the bud and get firm with him, instead of the original language, I don't think anyone would have disagreed.

The most important thing with training any animal is consistency and fairness. Like if you let your dog jump on you 6 days a week you cannot shout at it when it jumps on your best suit for church...
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Absolutely.

The problem has been going on for quite a while, she posted at Christmas about similar handling issues with him. She didn't take on board any of the advice she was given then, as she apparently knew better, and knew people who would deal with it then. 10 months later, she is having the same problems. Go figure.
 
I'm not aiming to compare one approach to horses that we find a bit challenging with another. Really I wanted to highlight the language we use about horses sometimes and how I feel that can colour our perceptions and attitude to them and how we then deal with them.
Just a quick scan of the first couple of pages, this horse was described as - git, evil, rude, stroppy, inconsiderate, nasty, challenging, dominant...
This is often the case and I'm not getting at QB personally about it, I just wish that sometimes people in general would stop to consider if an animal really merits these sort of descriptions, and in fact whether they are even appropriate. How can a horse be "inconsiderate" for example?
All I'm saying is that sometimes can't we step back and look at a horse for what it is, ie just a horse, and think about it in appropriate terms? The words we think about and use when we are with these animals undoubtedly affect the way we relate to them. Just to quote: "I knew this day would come". Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh, and the alternative to giving horses a "pasting" isn't necessarily waving ropes or carrot sticks at them is it? I had to pick up on that comment from a few pages back because I just think it's daft.
 
I think some people took the OP all too literally - though admittedly choice of words could be vastly improved if wanting post to be perceived in a different light.

If he were my horse - and Im well aware of 'horses for courses' so to speak - he would be turned out in company to have some time to chill out and be a horse. I know the OP says he doesnt need/want company but at his age I would say it is vital and ignore what works for the other horses on the yard for the time being. At 3.5 years old any horse of mine would not be being 'worked', light educational hacks/very short schooling sessions would be all. They would then get winter off to grow up a bit.

My current youngster, 2 year old Welsh d gelding, is being a bit of a brat. Never would I even consider beating the crap out of him...but for the first time the other day I took a short crop into his stable with me and everytime he attempted to barge through me he got a smack on the chest backed up with voice aids. He is one who knows his size and strength and has used it previously to his advantage. He trusts me completely but sometimes forgetshs respect! I am happy to back up my requests to him if he ignores what I ask. (he doesn't respect other horses and often would get a good beating from another horse after he had repeatedly ignored their more subtle warnings, so I know he needs firm but fair handling)

Another little mare I owned had had the crap well and truly beaten out of her - both on the ground and ridden. When I bought her she would attack you with teeth and hooves if you attempted to enter her stable...she wasn't nasty or dominant she had simply learnt that was the only way to keep humans away from her. I simply popped her in a very small stable and covered myself in padding and braved her attack - she only truly attacked me once and when she realised I didn't leave she stopped and let me be. She was by no means easy, and it took months for her to give up those behaviours completely (and she would still they it with new people who tried to get right into her space straight away) but if I had hit her in the very beginning I feel she wouldn't have came round so easily. That's not to say that once I gained her trust and respect I was all fluffy with her - she went to bite my younger sister once and got an elbow in the muzzle from me for her troubles as there still need to be boundaries!

Kim
 
Sarah1 said:
Your horse tried to kick you & you ended up feeling ashamed because you reacted to that? You should have reacted to it, it's unacceptable! :eek:

It's ok walking away but if it's a one-off spur of the moment thing then the horse isn't going to remember it 10 minutes later, they need a response immediately.
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Yes I reacted with a loud 'No' but I don't agree with hitting horses unless you are in fear for your own safety. I wouldn't hit a child, a dog or a human so why hit my horse?

He had a metal gate close on him when a rider swung it open to take him off the gallops, in response he kicked out, got caught in the gate and was badly injured. I know he has issues with his back legs as a result and take this into account when working with him, it was my fault for not taking the time to reassure him and approach his feet properly. I should have given him fair warning by running my hand down his backside/leg before reaching for his foot, instead of forgetting and going immediately to pick it up.

I won't apologise for feeling ashamed, I may be too fluffy for your liking but I would rather have my horse respect me than fear me. I've seen too many race horses soured by lads who have to get the job done quickly and result to pushing the horse around or hitting them and I don't wish to be associated with that.
 
Auslander said:
I don't see that it's the point at all. It could also be said that horses don't know why they have been kicked/bitten by older herd members when they first start to push their luck.
If he doesn't yet know that being a bargy, pushy git is not acceptable - he will soon work it out if he receives a short sharp shock every time he does something rude. Ideally he would be out with others, but the OP doesn't have a choice. Therefore, she is taking responsibility for dishing out the discipline that he would get from another horse for bad behaviour.
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Well said
 
emmah1979 said:
Well said
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Contrary to seemingly popular belief, senior horses do not lunge, kick, bite and chase off youngsters for every misdemeanor.
Most of their correction is done with a look and body language. Silently and quietly.
Have you ever seen a foal made to stand stock still or have each foot fall directed with incredible precision by an unspoken language from a senior herd member ?
Physical aggression is an absolute last resort when other signals have been willfully ignored.

Having seen the skill with which horses train and socialise young ones. Its a rare and talented human that could replicate that.

Want a rude horse ? Then kept it away from others and give it a good whacking when it forgets the manners it hasn't learnt.
 
Black Beastie said:
I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... ;)

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ;)) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her :rolleyes:

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc ;) :D
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Whoo hoo! I agree. The most dangerous horses I've met are the ones who are owned by people who have watched a bit of Monty or Parelli man and think that they can do this too. A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing. I enjoy watching Monty and KM but am under no illusions that they make that stuff look easy. How many times have they sorted out a horse in the ring only for it to go back to its owner and immediately revert back to its bad behaviour?

On almost every yard there seems to be someone who likes to do the 'natural horsemanship' thing and ironically their horse is often the bargiest, rudest, most bad mannered animal on yard because they don't understand that horses need discipline and to understand their place in the pecking order. This doesn't mean being cruel and beating the c**p out of it.
 
Queenbee said:
Unfortunately one hit wont do it... it will take something like this 'hit, buck, hit, kick, hit, kick, hit bum, hit, kick, hit, flat ears, hit, flat ears, hit, nothing... unfortunately that is what we are talking about, he is very challenging before he concedes... dominatrix outfit needed!
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I don't think there has been a lot of room for misunderstanding personally. I also accept that, for many, getting tough with a chiffney and repeatedly belting a horse would be acceptable because they think it is the only way they can keep themselves safe. It's always "interesting" to read other views and I don't think anyone should expect for a minute that they might change opinions on something like this.
 
emmah1979 said:
Whoo hoo! I agree. The most dangerous horses I've met are the ones who are owned by people who have watched a bit of Monty or Parelli man and think that they can do this too. A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing. I enjoy watching Monty and KM but am under no illusions that they make that stuff look easy. How many times have they sorted out a horse in the ring only for it to go back to its owner and immediately revert back to its bad behaviour?

On almost every yard there seems to be someone who likes to do the 'natural horsemanship' thing and ironically their horse is often the bargiest, rudest, most bad mannered animal on yard because they don't understand that horses need discipline and to understand their place in the pecking order. This doesn't mean being cruel and beating the c**p out of it.
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I can't quite work out why anyone decided that natural horsemanship or Monty Roberts had anything to do with this thread. Sometimes it seems as if any excuse, people will wangle these sort of comments on to threads. I've read most of these posts and I can't see anyone recommending that QB should use Parelli or Monty methods. The closest was a suggestion that a Dually might be helpful, which is just a posh version of a rope over the nose anyway...
 
Pale Rider said:
It's always the handlers fault, only a knob blames the horse.
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That is probably true but remember, you may not be the 'knob' who has caused the problems in your horse.

A lot of people in this thread have come out with comments along the line of, "well my horse has never needed a 'pasting'. Hopefully that applies to most people who are lucky enough to have acquired a well-balanced, well brought up animal, which has been properly handled and trained as a youngster and so doesn't have any problems with behaviour.

Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult. It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
 
I can't quite work out why anyone decided that natural horsemanship or Monty Roberts had anything to do with this thread. Sometimes it seems as if any excuse, people will wangle these sort of comments on to threads. I've read most of these posts and I can't see anyone recommending that QB should use Parelli or Monty methods. The closest was a suggestion that a Dually might be helpful, which is just a posh version of a rope over the nose anyway...
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Actually, I think Parelli is one of the harshest most dominating training methods out there.
 
emmah1979 said:
Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult. It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
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Ok, you get the award for the most idiotic statement. What school of training does that little gem come from ?
 
emmah1979 said:
Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult. It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
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Seriously? That's the sort of thing my toddler might do with a toy that wasn't doing what she wanted it to do.

I bought a badly treated 2 year old who could not be touched other than her face. When I touched her body she kicked out at the walls constantly, I had to thread the lead rope through the hay rack and pin her head away from me because she would bite me, she once managed to get me and broke the skin on my shoulder through a Barbour jacket and several layers. If you were stupid enough to be violent towards (a couple of farriers thought pokimg her in the ribs with the rasp was a good idea, it wasn't) her she'd give you it back in spades.

I went to a Richard Maxwell clinic and I learnt how to deal with her.

She matured to 16.2 and I backed her as a 3 year old and she was by that time completely normal.

I never hit her once, I disciplined her by elbowing her in the chops when she bit me (I didn't move my arm she collided with it), kicking when being brushed was rather amusingly cured with a move from a wooden stable into a breeze block one, she kicked the walls once after the move and realised it wasn't quite as much fun as it used to be and never did it again.

She is on loan now and in her mid teens. I didn't tell loanee about her youth as it was irrelevant to how she is now but they have had her a year now. She told me the other day how they have never had such a well mannered and sweet horse. Everyone flocks to her for a cuddle apparently and they think she is amazing. I told her about how she was as a youngster and her jaw nearly hit the floor :D

I never thought of that horse as a git or anything tho, I loved her with all my heart and I knew I had to sort out her behaviour and quickly (she was on full livery and they didn't take kindly to naughty horses!).
 
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emmah1979 said:
That is probably true but remember, you may not be the 'knob' who has caused the problems in your horse.

A lot of people in this thread have come out with comments along the line of, "well my horse has never needed a 'pasting'. Hopefully that applies to most people who are lucky enough to have acquired a well-balanced, well brought up animal, which has been properly handled and trained as a youngster and so doesn't have any problems with behaviour.

Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult. It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
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Can I just mention the fact that I've not always been lucky enough to take in well-balanced, well brought up and trained animals without behaviour problems. In fact, I have one in the field as we speak who came to me unable to even pass through a gateway without flattening the person leading him. Not to mention running blindly over the top of certain people on occasion, mad panic bolting and various other interesting tricks. I've not thrown a brush at him, beaten him with a carrot stick or given him any form of a pasting. However, he no longer flattens people or does the mad bolting thing, so something's worked.
But then I'm lucky I guess, because my horses are all lovely and just sooo good...
 
While problems with young horses mostly stem from poor handling by owners/trainers. The last thing that would do any good is advocating a Natural Horsemanship solution to people who have little or no interest in it.
Whatever techniques a person uses, they need to be good at it to train young horses.
Bringing on youngsters isn't that difficult, but you really need to know what you're doing.
 
There'a another thread just popped up regarding a rude cob that has no respect for his handler and is also kept on his own etc,although this one is by a brand new member,seems to be a lot of horses with the same problems at the mo................................................................................................................................................;)
 
devonlass said:
There'a another thread just popped up regarding a rude cob that has no respect for his handler and is also kept on his own etc,although this one is by a brand new member,seems to be a lot of horses with the same problems at the mo................................................................................................................................................;)
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Oh good, off to look, bit bored tonight :D :D
 
Can I just ask for those putting in their posts that they don't hit their horses what they consider an elbow to the chops is? I would consider that hitting the horse really. Your still striking it in the head regardless of what part of your anatomy that you are using.

Just a musing that's all.

I think that the vast majority of the nipping going on in this thread is the terminology used, its the same for the threads where a horse has 'bolted' with the rider when its just really decided to take off for home.

Maybe if we all thought a little before we posted to really see what folk are talking about then maybe so much vitriol and nastinees and insults wouldn't occur :)

Again just a musing :)
 
Good god this thread has run to 33 pages?

Give him some company, lots of work and firm consistent handling, not mindless yelling or battering, just some boundaries that he has to respect always.
It's not rocket science. Seriously.
 
I've not read all replies but I have to say getting violent with horses is not something I like seeing done.

However, I took on an extremely bad mannered highland who had been allowed to get away with everything. Dream to ride, an absolute liability on the ground at times. He would behave for so long on the yard then decide he'd had enough and would at times be dangerous.

I wasn't prepared to write him off as he knew how to behave, just often choose not too. Some things I put down to fear, others were just plain bad manners.

He'd improved greatly in the short time I had him and took him out one day and he came back really hot and sweaty. Me, yard owner and mum were on the yard, I was holding him while yard owner was sponging him off for me before I turned him out. He stood there quietly for a bit, then decided 'nah had enough' and carted off the yard with me in tow till he started fly bucking, I let go and then he started backing up towards me trying to kick me.

Next thing you know yard owner had grabbed a whip, ran after him and smacked his arse hard 4 or 5 times while me and mum stood there open mouthed. I was fuming, grabbed my pony and took him back to the yard.

Despite being incredibly angry that day to the point I considered moving yards, yo explained her reasons and apologised for not asking permission first. However, after that day he never, ever misbehaved to that extent on the yard and never tried to kick me again so can't argue that her method worked even if its not what I'd have done myself.
 
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