vices - a debate

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LadyRascasse

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we have a new horse on the yard which windsucks and it got me thinking about how horses develop these habits. so do you think vices (ie crib biting or windsucking) are a copied habit? if not how do you think horses develop these habit?
 
It has been clinically proven that they don't copy.
There have been some very long threads about this though, and some disagree.
 
No, I don't think they are a copied habit (and I've owned a cribber for the last 13 years!)

Horses who have these vices have a predisposition to them (like some people have addictive personalities) and then poor management triggers the development of them.

My cribber already cribbed (A LOT) when I got her, but is *much* better now for living out 24/7.
 
some recent research into it says its not copied, just developed for other reasons like boredom, malnourishment, stress etc. there are a few (including mine) on my yard, none of the others have copied ! touch wood..
 
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some recent research into it says its not copied, just developed for other reasons like boredom, malnourishment, stress etc.

I agree with this. There are several horses that windsuck at the horse sanctuary that i donate to. I feel it has something to do with them being bored stiff, underweight etc etc.
 
I knew a brood mare that weaved (badly). Her foal nearly got knocked over a few times, but sadly but the time foalie was 4 months was showing signs of weaving too.
 
Well, you'd weave as well if your mum kept knocking you over.
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It is fairly well established that horse's don't usually copy stereotypies (vices), but that a yard full of horses with these behaviours is usually due to mis-management.
they start these behaviours due to stress or boredom. Wind sucking and crib biting are usually started as the horse tries to cope with stress or dietary issues, as the actions release endorphins similar to those released after eating a high fibre meal (eg chaff or hay), horses with a really bad wind sucking problem often have gastric ulcers too. This is one reason why so many racehorses have vices.
Box walking etc are usually due to mis-management of a yard and/or a horse being particularly nervous. box walking in particular is part of the flight or fight mechanism, and is indicitative of a horse who feels he needs to run from something, or is simply short of exercise.

Very often if these triggers are removed a horse will (in time) stop, but in horses where the behaviour is deeply ingrained then it may never cease to exhibit these behaviours.

or at least that's what I was taught at Uni.
 
In my own experience some horses learn to copy, other horses don't.

My little mare travelled all over with us for ages and was always fine on the lorry, then she went to a rider and was fine on his lorry, then his old horse came back into work and started travelling with her and he has a habit of scraping his teeth on the walls and the top of the tack locker. My mare now does it too - but it would appear only in the lorry that she travels in with him, she doesn't appear to do it now she's back with me.
 
I beg to differ on this one. We have a 'No cribbers/ windsuckers' rule on our yard. We have a livery that has been there yrs and she has just bought a horse that wind sucks. She knows the rules but they don't seem to matter to her. She told everyone it only just started it and didn't do it often. It was turned out with a four yr old who is starting to copy it. The owner of the youngster has had it all its life and it has never shown any signs before. She has now been moved out of the field and the w.s. has its own 10 acre field.
We also have noticed that owners of two or more horses copy each other to get attention. Mine will use there head and neck to pull you in to them so you can scratch them, my friend has a gelding that has also started to do this. Said gelding does a funny thing with his mouth when he has finished work, mine also have started doing it as has her other horse. Hers are never ridden together so how, other than copying are they doing the same thing?? Watching mine??
 
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we have a new horse on the yard which windsucks and it got me thinking about how horses develop these habits. so do you think vices (ie crib biting or windsucking) are a copied habit? if not how do you think horses develop these habit?

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I hate the term vice! Windsucking, etc are behavioural stereotypees, developed due to a restriction on the horse or bad management. Wild/feral horses do not crib, weave or anything else!

Weaving/box walking- frustration due to lack of movement
cribbing/wind sucking- Digestive discomfort, which can even begin as a foal and be linked to the weaning process and cereal feeds

Thy are not copied but several horses on the same yard may express the behaviour because of the same or similar management.

Cribbing, etc are totally man made problems, which even after improved management can stay with a horse for life.

And while im having a rant, cribbing collars and weaving grills are cruel and treat the symptom, not the cause. They make the owner feel better but do nothing for the horse
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My horse never weaved until he was 10 years old and stabled next to a tb that weaved (on loan to us at the time)! He had adlib hay, all day turnout, exercised on walker or rode daily, same feed as usual! Now he is stabled with our mini shetland and doesnt do it but will weave now if stressed (in stable on own or on box rest). Before weaving when he needed box rest he just used to try jumping the door! I used to be of the opinion horses dont copy etc until he started - same weave pattern as the tb too.
 
My 5 yr old had shared a field with a windsucker and is now in a field opposite one but hasnt picked it up (im hoping its not learned!!!)
 
I have a pony that will copy ANY vice and drop them again when taken away from whoever he is copying!! He has had every vice going in his time (he is now 30) and is vice free again now as my mare he lives with is also vice free
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Very odd and I know it goes against what people think about vices but then...he is a very odd pony
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QR

Just finished studying stereotypic behaviour.

There is very very little evidence to suggest that horses copy stereotypies. It is far more likely that multiple horses on the same yard develop stereotypies because the yard conditions do not provide for their behavioural needs.

Horses whose parents display stereotypies are more predisposed to developing them. They may develop due to boredom, stress or a need to display a certain type of behaviour which is not available - e.g. horses need to chew for hours a day, and if they aren't given ad-lib forage and are instead given their calorie intake through feeds, they may need to display abnormal behaviour in order to relieve that behavioural need.

Windsucking is also associated with gastric discomfort.

Once a horse has developed a stereotypy it is "hardwired" in. Depending on the severity of the behaviour it can be exhibited when the original cause is no longer present, and/or in times of stress which may not be the same type or cause of stress which originally caused the behaviour.

Horses who are allowed to exhibit their stereotypy are less stressed than those who are forcibly prevented.
 
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I knew a brood mare that weaved (badly). Her foal nearly got knocked over a few times, but sadly but the time foalie was 4 months was showing signs of weaving too.

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Thats really interesting. Would love to know if mare and foal on same yard as where mare first exhibited the behaviour.

We also know that young horses learn from other horses - thats how they learn how long to graze, stretch or groom for, for example. So I could see a case for foals learning weaving fromm their dams.
 
My 2nd pony tried to copy a pony he was turned out with that cribbed. Both ponies were out 24/7 in a small, stable herd, had good nutrition, plenty of exercise etc. He never properly managed to copy the other pony - he would latch on to objects with the arched neck/posture but he never actually swallowed any air. He gave up after a while and none of the others tried to copy the pony.

I do think its very rare that a horse will try to copy others, but it is little consolation if it is your horse! I would be happy to have my horse next to a horse with 'vices' (for want of a better term) though if it showed any signs of copying I would want it moved.
 
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We also know that young horses learn from other horses - thats how they learn how long to graze, stretch or groom for, for example. So I could see a case for foals learning weaving fromm their dams.

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I agree. Otherwise i think its because the horses are under the same management, so they have the same stimulus/lack of it to start the behaviour.
 
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And while im having a rant, cribbing collars and weaving grills are cruel and treat the symptom, not the cause. They make the owner feel better but do nothing for the horse
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Agreed with your post until this. Collars and grills CAN help, but each horse is individual.
My hackney now wears his collar pretty much 24/7. He now keeps weight on nicely, doesn't rush to a door or post every spare second, no interior rumbling and burping and seems a happier, less stressed person.
Had a weaver I put a grill on the door for, he just stepped back and weaved even more frantically. It made things worse.
They are all different, don't tar them all with the same brush!
FWIW once a horse has aquired the cribbing/weaving its difficult to stop it, management helps as can collars etc. Do what works for your horse!
But I believe the horse has it in them to pick up a stereotype, not bred into them. Some horses in close proximity just don't have the attitude to do the same. Neither would stop me buying a horse....
 
Personally I am very anti collar, but each to their own, I am not a preacher
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I don't believe horses copy either, my horse is a very tense and anxious type and he *burps* and very mildly sometimes windsucks and I fully attribute this to having a stressy tummy due to his anxiety - I wouldn't collar him as it wouldn't be fair, it is not going to change his head! I had another windsucker and nothing else on the yard sucked.

However, whilst discussing copying behaviour, this is brilliant
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Next to my horse is a 20yo pony, Quiz. Quiz loves mints, and when he is given one he will chew it once and then suck it, literally stand there and suck (you can hear him), so it will last longer. My horse and the one the other side of him have both copied and learnt how to do it too, it is very cute!
 
One of mines weaves- badly when I got him- much much better now his management has changed....only if I am late down or I bring him in on his own does he stand at his door and nod now. The other two dont- although they are stabled with him.

One horse on our yard cribs and windsucks- none of the others do even though they are turned out with him in the same field.

I personally believe that if other horses start these 'vices' (read- stress-relieving behavours) then you need to be looking at the routine and management of said horses.
 
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