Video - Abuse in the showing world

VictoriaSponge said:
I wouldn’t agree with this on the whole. Cob classes and natives, yes I think you could make a very good argument that most are overweight, and that is not acceptable. I don’t think it’s the case at all for the horse classes, but there are exceptions. But you are very correct in that if all you see of showing is a cob class that you happen to catch at your local county show then see this video, it’s going to leave a very bad taste.
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I've seen literally hundreds, probably thousands of obese horses in showing classes over several decades of horse ownership and that's excluding cobs. I'd say it's getting worse not better. Ditto riders who are far too heavy for the horse they are riding. Most of the riders that are too heavy are not themselves overweight but are adults or teens on tiny leadrein / fr type ponies. Look at how showing folks have kicked off at the GYS when being told to get weighed. I've also taken a young horse to a few local showing shows only to be told my normal weight horse is lacking condition. I've witnessed first hand horses being strapped in very tight side reins for lengthy periods, mostly small ponies. The one that was posted on social media at a showing producer's yard which fell on the floor, fitting and was later tested to have been administered bromide without the owners knowledge or consent could also have cause a serious accident to a person not only the horse. Maybe I need to go to specsavers if I keep seeing this stuff and it's not really going on.
 
nutjob said:
I've seen literally hundreds, probably thousands of obese horses in showing classes over several decades of horse ownership and that's excluding cobs. I'd say it's getting worse not better. Ditto riders who are far too heavy for the horse they are riding. Most of the riders that are too heavy are not themselves overweight but are adults or teens on tiny leadrein / fr type ponies. Look at how showing folks have kicked off at the GYS when being told to get weighed. I've also taken a young horse to a few local showing shows only to be told my normal weight horse is lacking condition. I've witnessed first hand horses being strapped in very tight side reins for lengthy periods, mostly small ponies. The one that was posted on social media at a showing producer's yard which fell on the floor, fitting and was later tested to have been administered bromide without the owners knowledge or consent could also have cause a serious accident to a person not only the horse. Maybe I need to go to specsavers if I keep seeing this stuff and it's not really going on.
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I’m not for a minute suggesting that it doesn’t go on, I’ve mentioned the overweight riders and GYS introducing their own rules (which are great, but meaningless without support from the societies). And as I said earlier it’s been a long time since I had anything to do with the ponies, I can’t comment on that with the experience I can with the horse classes.

But the implication that everyone involved in showing is complicit in this behaviour is wrong. There are plenty of producers and amateurs alike who have fit, healthy horses and compete at the top level, treating their horses with kindness. I don’t think it’s correct that showing is vilified in the way it is, when similar occurs at the top of all equestrian sports.
 
I'm Dun said:
If every horse in the ring wasnt incredibly fat people might not think that. But when every horse put forward looks like that then theres something wrong with the whole thing.
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I suspect the overfeeding/fat ponies we’re seeing is in part a control method in its own right. A fat horse won’t run off with you, because they can’t move properly. I’ve seen it with a couple of horses that were used for competitive showing.

My cob was a bit overweight (not showing-level fat) when we first got her, and since she’s lost weight she’s definitely become more energetic and a lovely, easy ride to be honest who enjoys a spot of canter and can sustain an active working trot.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
It is systemic, not a few bad apples.
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I think that is an excellent point and one of perspective.

To me, in my recent experience in my classes, I don’t think it is systematic at all.

But I’m open to the possibility that maybe in the ponies this has become the norm (I’m not talking about the level of abuse seen in this video, but certainly the being worked in for hours) and certainly can understand that if your experience of showing is seeing fat horses then videos like this one you would be correct to think that way.
 
Wow just caught up with this. I'm glad the relevant societies are taking action. Let's hope it's painful enough to stop him/them and makes others who behave the same way think twice.

IMHO the welfare issues within the showing world has got worse since we were competing at top levels on the 80/90 and early 00s. The main reason I feel is there are more less knowledgeable/experienced people - showing being seen as the 'easier' discipline. People are trying to rush or cut corners as there is this massive push to get into the open classes. Back in the day you'd commonly see 6/7/8 even 9 year old ponies contesting the novice classes, but now everyone seems to want their 5 year olds getting placed in the open classes. I really don't understand why people feel the need to rush their animals (apart from money obviously), I feel it's like sending your 4 year old child to middle school before they have even started infant school. It takes time for horses to grow and learn to carry themselves in the way we ask them to, never mind getting them miles under their belts to have the experience to cope with the big environments.

I for one have not rushed my lot and I don't believe ponies produced by my family (classed as top end producers 'back in the day') were rushed, but we did just as well as everyone else - but maybe our horses lasted a bit longer 😉
 
yes, I had read about it in comments on the other post about it having 'seizures' and that it had been fine since moved. I hadn't read that it had been tested for KBr

Not sure I can do a direct link but it's on Isobelle's page if you scroll down (bay welshie)

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VictoriaSponge said:
I mean that’s just not true. Showing has its issues, and as a member of “The showing lot” I think it’s something we should be open to discussing. But it’s pretty unfair to tarnish us all with the same brush.

Are there instances of horses being drugged? Yes, as there are in all horse sports, but it is certainly not standard.

There are lots of fabulous producers, any of whom I would trust with my horse. There are also some who have no business being anywhere near any animal, but let’s focus on those, not have a witch hunt at anyone involved.
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Well said.

I had several of the bigger names ask to have my horse including Tatlow and Oliver, both real horsemen, but I chose to produce him myself and take them on at their own game. Both those gentlemen and Mr Walker, were supportive of us when we met them in the ring. There are rotten apples across the entire horse world, sport, dealers, owners and always will be, but there are also genuine and honest people. I treasure the picture below which was printed in HH and they let me have it, we had won the amateur championship and the open middles and once again took on the mighty Loughkeen Dancing Lord in the championship. We got very used to standing in his shadow.

There is no doubt the cob classes need addressing for weight issues, there are some real blunderbusses in those classes wheezing and grunting away, plus some natives and the show ponies, but the hunters should be fitter, mine was, he galloped frequently and had a busy dressage career alongside his showing. The days of the big rings where fitness is needed are almost gone, Great Yorkshire has a big ring, but the demise of the Royal Show saw a huge ring gone, a few laps of that and then the gallop needed a fit horse. Personally I don't miss showing, I was fortunate to have a superstar and will just remember the memories. He certainly was not abused and the day he said enough, which happened at Royal Windsor, he was retired instantly. His welfare was paramount and he lived a long happy retirement to a grand age of 31, something I am proud of.
 

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It's just so unsurprising in showing. Horses heads being tied in has been a well known "training technique" for many decades. Absolutely grim.

I posted on here last year about a very successful showing producer putting photos online of them having a happy morning doing some schooling with their top-claws RoRs, being ridden in double bridles with a wilkie as the snaffle part, and just a draw rein running through the Weymouth - no normal Weymouth rein. Posted publicly on their page as of that was a perfectly normal thing to do. And lot of other showing producers commenting on that photo wishing them a successful season. Total madness.
 
ester said:
I presume they're just acquiring laboratory stuff from the internet
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Not necessarily, it is a prescription drug used for epilepsy in dogs. Can it be bought without a prescription ?

It was a possibility for a horse of mine who was on box rest for a long time, but after trying a few other things we found Calmex helped him.

ACP is widely used in the showing world and I've seen it used out hunting, would you want to aim at a hedge with an ACP'ed horse ! I would not. The use of dope under rules is a risk some will take. I've only seen the dope wagon on three occasions across nearly 30 years of showing hunters and only been tested once. So the risk of being caught has to be assumed as low. Perhaps the answer is to increase the entry fee with a small levy to pay for the dope truck to be on site much more often across all disciplines. If they can do it at racecourses surely it can be done at major shows.
 
Obviously my experience is from buying laboratory stuff, it's cheap as chips and not restricted so why buy the pricier animal needing a prescription option if you're not exactly the person to stick to the rules everyone else does anyway. Despite having been dope tested and found positive some years ago (learned from that then)
 
AdorableAlice said:
Not necessarily, it is a prescription drug used for epilepsy in dogs. Can it be bought without a prescription ?

It was a possibility for a horse of mine who was on box rest for a long time, but after trying a few other things we found Calmex helped him.

ACP is widely used in the showing world and I've seen it used out hunting, would you want to aim at a hedge with an ACP'ed horse ! I would not. The use of dope under rules is a risk some will take. I've only seen the dope wagon on three occasions across nearly 30 years of showing hunters and only been tested once. So the risk of being caught has to be assumed as low. Perhaps the answer is to increase the entry fee with a small levy to pay for the dope truck to be on site much more often across all disciplines. If they can do it at racecourses surely it can be done at major shows.
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I think it’s a struggle to get it without prescription. I tried to get some for a horse after an incident when the hunt came through our land and were meeting regularly in the village 🙄. Vet couldn’t get any.
I’ve ridden a few on ACP - used to work in rehab yard and sometimes it was necessary bringing horses back into work. I found that it would wear off suddenly, but then the horse would go back to being doped. It was all pretty nerve wracking 🤣. No way would I jump with it but I’ve known dealers do it.
As an aside we were at a county show watching the showing. It was a really weird class, amateur natives but there was a Welsh section D that clearly competed regularly and was ridden by a producer. It got pulled in second place by the judge and spectators in the know said the judge disliked fat horses. It was definitely overweight. The owner was less than impressed and I did giggle at her striding over to talk to the judge. Felt sorry for the judge though.
 
ester said:
yes, I had read about it in comments on the other post about it having 'seizures' and that it had been fine since moved. I hadn't read that it had been tested for KBr

Not sure I can do a direct link but it's on Isobelle's page if you scroll down (bay welshie)

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That is horrific. Poor pony and poor girl owner.
 
ester said:
yes, I had read about it in comments on the other post about it having 'seizures' and that it had been fine since moved. I hadn't read that it had been tested for KBr

Not sure I can do a direct link but it's on Isobelle's page if you scroll down (bay welshie)

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So many questions.
Why would you dope a livery?
Why would you not stop when it first fell and fitted?
That poor pony. Would have been terrifying to have lost control of your legs as a flight animal.
 
Gloi said:
What percentage of small ponies go in the outline they are expected to in the ring without spending hours standing in in side reins? Few of the tiny riders are capable of schooling them to go like that.
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I watched part of a video posted by a young 'influencer'...not on purpose a clients daughter was watching and asked me if I liked the pony...the pony was being ridden in side reins and a martingale with a knot tied in it to keep it tight, so rather than it coming into effect when the pony raised its head beyond the point of control it couldn't raise its head above the point of being pretty and sadly the influencer rode it like that as that's how the producer rode it and told her to when she took it home.
 
I stick up for and support showing as a discipline. There is nothing more eye catching in my opinion than either a National Hunt racehorse jumping beautifully or a gorgeous superbly schooled show hack, riding horse or RoR. I can remember being in awe of one of the great show hacks when I saw the horse at a show where I was jumping and then subsequently to compete against and get to know the person who owned and showed that horse was quite amazing. I could never actually have imagined being quite so glamorous at least for a few minutes. That said yes there are obviously poor practices and one definitely does not condone those and organisations need to get on top of it. Current horse who is a multiple county show champion has never had a calmer. Contrast with a produced show horse next to him a few years back - the other half told me horse went in and out of the lorry about five times presumably for top ups of whatever, the horse was being given. I think that if the horse needs calming or anything else to do the discipline then either change your management practice to see if you can assist the horse in a nice way or find the horse another job. My current horse had lots of experience dressage and showing before he started doing the county shows as I knew he would find it difficult at that stage and even when we started doing them, I would still pick my shows knowing the layout as to what would suit him. And that applies whatever discipline. Previous horse was destined to be an event horse and he was initially successful but it wasn’t the career for him and he became a top horse winning nationally in another discipline.
 
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My experience of showing is extremely limited - basically, local riding clubs and, on one occasion, a regional 'champions' show involving a large number of riding clubs.

Our most bizarre experience was when my daughter showed our cob at a riding club show and he was automatically placed last because he was barefoot. The judge said it was cruel and we should put shoes on him. Daughter then decided that show jumping was more her thing.
However, my overwhelming impression of showing at local level was that it was over-populated by very pushy mums with fine-built tiny ponies being 'worked in' in tight draw reins/martingales and making snide comments about each other. I remember one show - the first of the season - that seemed to be full of wide-eyed wired horses and ponies on their toes, being lunged for long periods.
Then there was the whole issue of judging; pretty much every show there'd be some sort of row about who was placed where, especially if it was a qualifier. One woman was shouting at the show organiser that the judging was rigged and he told her to take up showjumping instead because 'the fence is up or it's down'.

I don't consider showing to be an easy option and it's wonderful to see such gorgeous horses looking their absolute best and moving beautifully.

But for some of the people I knew who were heavily into showing there was an element of obsession. Showing saddles were bought firstly for appearance and fit was secondary. Getting the ponies' heads in was a priority and some were 'schooled' for long periods of time in various gadgets to achieve that aim. I decided that showing wasn't for me and so I wasn't part of the clique. There was some bitchiness in all of the disciplines at the local show, but the showing crowd took the biscuit. Perhaps it was just in that riding club and uncommon in others.

We know that abuse exists is every type of horse-related sport. What I'm not sure about is whether or not showing is more likely to attract 'unethical' practices at local level, compared to say, dressage, where we tend to hear more about incidents involving professional riders rather than those at local level. I did some riding club dressage at one stage (I was beyond hopeless) and while there was a strong sense of competition amongst some I never saw the same sort of behaviour as I did with the showing crowd. (That's not to say it didn't happen, just that I didn't see it).

I don't doubt that there wonderful, caring riders/owners exist in the showing world. But I do wonder if it also attracts a certain type of person; one woman said that all she wanted to do in her life was to get to HOYs (and was aiming to live out that ambition with her young daughter). All she needed to do was to buy the 'right' pony and practise the moves. The fact that everyone in the same circle was routinely strapping down ponies' heads and using all sorts of gadgets/techniques seemed to normalise the behaviour. And when it comes to the original video, I wonder if it's a case of abusive practices becoming somehow normalised. I know the person concerned is a professional but I also know that he is selling to ambitious hobbyists; perhaps this is why some are happy to defend him.
 
I m not so much on the showing world now [ not got a good enough horse! ] but there are plenty of empathetic riders and trainers out there. As in dressage , the judging is key. Older judges will often reward forward going horses that are muscled correctly , but younger ones , who have perhaps been themselves taught to ride in a modern 'frame' , dont see incorrect necks or movement. [ I m generalising here!]
I abhor draw reins for creating a false silhouette - which I do think is fairly endemic in show pony classes. Again , judges are rewarding rocking horse type necks .
But the posters here that think showing is any worse than .......... [ insert any other discipline ] , seems to me totally wrong.
At one time I had a top level HW cob , who was show produced for the season 4 years running. He would then come back to me in October , after HOYS, and we then went hunting over winter .That was how fit he was . And I can guarantee he never saw side or draw reins , but was ridden and schooled beautifully.
 

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AdorableAlice said:
ACP is widely used in the showing world and I've seen it used out hunting, would you want to aim at a hedge with an ACP'ed horse ! I would not.
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Guy here did just that out hunting hereabouts some years ago - aimed his doped horse at a big hedge not long after leaving the meet.

Horse (a top notch hunter and normally a very capable jumper) fell but was unhurt, the rider (an experienced regular rider to hounds) died instantly from a broken neck.

Friend was out with them that day, had not long been chatting with him, but didn’t see the fall.

Apparently in these parts it was commonplace to dope hunters before the meet so that they behaved while standing around before moving off 😳. The chap was blamed for being daft enough to aim horse at a big hedge early in the day before the dope wore off. Whether it still is common practice hereabouts after that fatality, I don’t know.
 
cornbrodolly said:
I m not so much on the showing world now [ not got a good enough horse! ] but there are plenty of empathetic riders and trainers out there. As in dressage , the judging is key. Older judges will often reward forward going horses that are muscled correctly , but younger ones , who have perhaps been themselves taught to ride in a modern 'frame' , dont see incorrect necks or movement. [ I m generalising here!]
I abhor draw reins for creating a false silhouette - which I do think is fairly endemic in show pony classes. Again , judges are rewarding rocking horse type necks .
But the posters here that think showing is any worse than .......... [ insert any other discipline ] , seems to me totally wrong.
At one time I had a top level HW cob , who was show produced for the season 4 years running. He would then come back to me in October , after HOYS, and we then went hunting over winter .That was how fit he was . And I can guarantee he never saw side or draw reins , but was ridden and schooled beautifully.
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That’s how cobs should be.
Unfortunately these days they aren’t
 
Overheard conversation in diy I’m on that someone was giving their horse Sedalin to ride. Was pretty amazed to be honest as not something I’d ever think of.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
Well said.

I had several of the bigger names ask to have my horse including Tatlow and Oliver, both real horsemen, but I chose to produce him myself and take them on at their own game. Both those gentlemen and Mr Walker, were supportive of us when we met them in the ring. There are rotten apples across the entire horse world, sport, dealers, owners and always will be, but there are also genuine and honest people. I treasure the picture below which was printed in HH and they let me have it, we had won the amateur championship and the open middles and once again took on the mighty Loughkeen Dancing Lord in the championship. We got very used to standing in his shadow.

There is no doubt the cob classes need addressing for weight issues, there are some real blunderbusses in those classes wheezing and grunting away, plus some natives and the show ponies, but the hunters should be fitter, mine was, he galloped frequently and had a busy dressage career alongside his showing. The days of the big rings where fitness is needed are almost gone, Great Yorkshire has a big ring, but the demise of the Royal Show saw a huge ring gone, a few laps of that and then the gallop needed a fit horse. Personally I don't miss showing, I was fortunate to have a superstar and will just remember the memories. He certainly was not abused and the day he said enough, which happened at Royal Windsor, he was retired instantly. His welfare was paramount and he lived a long happy retirement to a grand age of 31, something I am proud of.
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Oh God yes the royal show arena was huge

I watched all morning the hunter weight classes, remember vin toulson and the chestnut skibereen, h w I think, what stunning sight, it was so hot!
 
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