*Video included* Help on schooling and gaining correct muscle for ex racehorse

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imogen345

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjxX...DvjVQa1PpcFMX1h3aKvXzQoofKV3LLGJXGNw_gX46XeI=

Link to video is above. Posted this a while back but didn't get many replies. Just wanting some feedback as I've not yet found an instructor in my area to have any help as she is being kept away from home.

One friend said she looks very “flicky" with her hind legs? Is this a bad thing/what can I do about it??? She also said to use draw reins, but I'm not even a fan of the Pessoa never mind draw reins, I want her to be correctly schooled and never had to use a single gadget in the past, I don't even like using a flash on the bridle!

She is fine to lunge and hack out, but roughly how many times should I lunge, hack and ride a week to balance it out? With regards to her on the lunge, my favourite way is to mix long reining and lunging with double lines, but she goes exactly like she does in the video, even when I use a whip she just gets a little bit 'oh really' kind of attitude. I have used side reins, whilst making sure she is using her hind end as she is forwards, she did accept them and for the first and only time, form an easy to hold outline she seemed happy in, but I am still iffy about using side reins so have not used them since...

Her rhythm can change, we can lengthen and shorten trot and she is enjoying some jumping. She is very lazy on right rein and struggles with canter and correct lead but this is fixing up nicely. Since sorting out balance, striding and canter though we are stuck at this point and I can't find anything to reason with her and achieve the next step. If I ask for leg yield she hunches up and drifts to the side very annoyed with me about the situation and if I try counter bend, she really doesn't understand and once again fails to see the point. I ride with a schooling whip as she will not use her back end if I don't all though she is not a fan of you holding the whip, also thought I'd try spurs for just a week to engage her but even with a roller on the end they where her worst enemy.

I am probably making her sound really horrific bless her, she is not and when I say she has an attitude, I am only meaning ever so slightly... Just I like to read her and pick up on the slightest change in her mind set so I don't spoil the concepts of schooling for her.

Lastly, her back, teeth and saddle has been checked and all ok. Saddle is fine for riding but could be shorter in length so currently hunting as it belongs to my Arabian mare anyway and want to find a Barrie Swain saddle for her asap. Any help will be fab, sorry about the essay but I like to receive advice whenever I can and as I've not yet found an instructor, it will be greatly appreciated.
 
Ignore the flicky comment. She is using her hind end nicely and id be confused if she was lifting her hocks high enough to be doing grand prix dressage if she's only just started reschooling anyway, she looks lovely. Keep up the consistency, she will slowly get fitter and when you see the people that acheive outline usually in 8ish weeks, it is often wrong. If you keep this up, in half a years time you will notice a correct difference and i agree on not using any gadgets. Lastly, if you wanted to encourage long and low, consider an equi ami training aid as it does not have the bad effects a pessoa often does but leave it a month or 2 longer even still as she would probably win a prelim test compared to something young and green going round with it's head tucked in yet no correctness about it :) well done
 
You ride in a lovely calm, consistant and quiet manner!

For me she is not using her hindlegs enough and tracking up enough i.e. when she trots her hindlegs are still coming out too far behind and then she is running out in front. The way to correct this is by having more of a contact in front.

I use, when I teach, and 1 2 3 4 5 score of contact. 1 being no contact at all loose rein and 5 being really pulling! We all should be working at a 3 - to me you are at a 2 so your horse will not work in an outline until you have more of contact in front so you can 'hold her' together more.

I would not advise any gadgets...they only jump through stages of training that a horse needs to go through i.e. (I call it) the ABC of training. All horses need to to learn the ABC before they then can go on and do more lateral work etc...if they have missed the ABC through rushing or using gadgets you will find later on problems will surface, so well done you on that score!

A few riders I know have used a pessoa and have found that it has encouraged 'long and low' too much to the point where the horses have then learnt how to put their heads between their legs and bronc, so be aware of that one when using one. I am old school and prefer to use side reins, if you place then high up on the roller rings (not low near the girth) they act more like reins (just make sure you have some elastic in them for movement).

She looks just lovely though and in your early days of schooling you are both doing very well. I hope you find a good instructor, I am sure you will have loads of fun on her in the years to come. Good luck and keep us all updated on your progress!!!
 
I wouldn't use draw reins on her - she is not fighting, just carrying herself as she is comfortable at the moment. She has lovely flowing paces and covers the ground well - you don't want to lose that. She is a really really nice horse - just my type!

I would just vary your schooling sessions more - if you are wanting to encourage an outline, I would work on spiralling in and out on a circle in walk, really opening the inside hand out (not back) to encourage bend and then pushing her out in leg yield, step by step - don't let her run out through the shoulder. Lots of transitions from trot to walk, walk to halt and back up again and leg yield has always helped mine. Also changes within the pace - so slow your walk down for a few paces then back to normal pace and the same in trot. When she starts to carry herself you will then be able to shorten your reins bit by bit. She really is a nice horse - good luck with her.
 
I think she moves well for her type and stage of training. I would like to see you slow her down a little to enable her to gain more lift and softness. Your contact is inconsistent, you are not on a long rein asking for her to stretch or on enough that you can ask for any flexion, it really needs to be one or the other.

Go back a step, slow down and try to establish her working forward to a long, not loose rein, plenty of time doing this will enable you to get a more secure contact and her to find her balance, lift her back and soften through her frame.It should then be easier for her to listen to your legs, do things like leg yield and understand flexing left and right, while she is rushing it is more difficult for her to do this.

No gadgets required just consistent and clear riding, she will be lovely once established.
 
She's a lovely mare and you ride nicely. I am no expert but can tell you what I did with mine and that was a lot of hacking in the early days and teaching him to stretch down.

I'd concentrate on suppling exercises in walk and trot and leave the canter for now until she's better balanced and a bit stronger.

Although she's nicely forward I'd slow it all down a little and work her with more bend and inside flexion. You'll need to take up a little more contact and get her working from your inside leg to outside hand, with lots of turns and circles.

Pole work in walk and trot will also help her work over her back and help with strength.

Little and often. Oh and I don't think draw reins will be helpful, all the right basics are already there waiting for you bring the out correctly.

Good Luck, they are a bit special aren't they.
 
Hi, I commented on your previous post I think, in terms of work I would ride 5/6 days a week half schooling half hacking. Lunging and groundwork are excellent for bonding and observing how your horse moves. A gentle lunging aid is fine for long and low which is what you're aiming for at this stage. Contact needs to be consistent especially outside rein, lots of transitions and build in some lateral work starting on the ground if necessary, at the moment leg aids probably mean go so she needs to learn more subtle aids. Get some books to read, you can pick them up cheap on eBay. Joanna & Roger Days book is great, The Fearless Horse.
Above all enjoy her she's a nice sort
 
She's a nice horse and has a good action. I would say that your contact is not consistant enough. You actually need slow her down and push her more into a contact whilst asking her to come low. whn you go around a corner. keep your outside rein secure, open and lift the inside while also asking her to move away from your leg, that way you can start to ask for a bend and some softness. Also transitions!

If she has only just come back into work she's doing quite well. Do lots of hacking as well to build up her strenght.
 
What a lovely calm rider you are and I like the way you don't fuss with the head.

I would suggest slowing the horse down a little by slowing your rise and half halting, and also shortening your reins a little to give more of a contact for the horse to work into and so that the energy/impulsion doesn't go straight out of the front end. Also lots of transitions.

Lovely horse :)
 
In addition to all that has been said, you will find she is more likely to come underneath herself and round up if you improve your position a bit. You need to bring your lower leg under yourself, at the moment, you are sitting behind your heels and thus hauling yourself up in the rising trot, as well as driving with your seat forwards and downwards in canter.
As others mentioned, the contact needs to be consistent, as in, one or the other, at the moment it is neither long and low nor holding her up.
 
Thanks for all the advice. But with regards to the contact, To me... It is consistent. It's neither here nor there for a reason and I don't lengthen my reins unless I'm making her move on a free rein and I do not shorten them as I don't want to hold her up considering she would love that a little too much. Also, I am getting a few comments about outline when that is not what I consider to be the next stage for her as would be too soon.

I do agree on slowing trot down though, and I do but in the video my mum often teaches and helps and she asked for me to stop doing so many transitions and to count evenly in my head so she does a forwards and even trot. For a horse that is when I first got her very lazy, nappy and would rather go backwards than forwards... Forwards is good for us.

I'm looking for more advice on how to encourage leg yield and counter bend without confusing her, I know how to ask for most lateral movements as my arab my mum now rides is schooled to a high level. But this mare in particular kind of goes "erm nope not today" when I ask for that little more.
 
Lovely horse and you are doing a good job with her!

Try to keep her on circles for now and get her to accept your inside leg to create a bit of inside bend through the body. At the moment you can see on the vid that she is finding the bending a bit confusing but it's normal for an ex-racer/young horse and will come with time. I would percevere with the leg yielding on a circle, try just one or two correct strides for the time being and if she escapes through the outside shoulder maybe have a short whip you can hold on the outside hand to gently tap the shoulder.

Also do a lot more transitions with her. Count the number of transitions you can fit in in a 20m circle and then try to fit in one more next time.

I really like the equiami training aid for lunging. I wouldn't use anything else tbh.
 
She's beautiful and shows great potential.

I think you need to alter your position in the saddle a bit. It's difficult to see in the
video, but you seem to have a "chair" seat and using your knees to grip and rise in trot. Sitting towards the back of the saddle as you are, it will be difficult for your horse to lift and engage her back. Think of the Shoulder Hip Heels vertical line.
Once you have rebalanced yourself, you will find it easier to shorten your reins a bit and engage her quarters. In turn, she will find it easier to lift her back.

Perhaps a couple of lessons with an instructor would help to fine tune your position.

Edited to add - just seen your mum helps you, wasn't intending any critisism of her training!
 
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martlin said:
In addition to all that has been said, you will find she is more likely to come underneath herself and round up if you improve your position a bit. You need to bring your lower leg under yourself, at the moment, you are sitting behind your heels and thus hauling yourself up in the rising trot, as well as driving with your seat forwards and downwards in canter.
As others mentioned, the contact needs to be consistent, as in, one or the other, at the moment it is neither long and low nor holding her up.
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some comments are talking as if this rider should shorten her reins, demand a contact and 'round the horse' I think she has made it clear in the first description that the horse has not been reschooling for long and is asking for help now on bend so on so on, not rounding the horse. As far as I can see her leg is under her too so that's odd advice when she is using a nice light seat trot on a young horse that has not yet been in work for long. May I also add which has shocked me, is clasically a horse can work in an outline with NO CONTACT what so ever. How is she going to do a dressage test and give with the reins if the horse is relying upon them for a false outline. Not to forget the post was not to learn how to get the horse round :S
 
leanne1985 said:
some comments are talking as if this rider should shorten her reins, demand a contact and 'round the horse' I think she has made it clear in the first description that the horse has not been reschooling for long and is asking for help now on bend so on so on, not rounding the horse. As far as I can see her leg is under her too so that's odd advice when she is using a nice light seat trot on a young horse that has not yet been in work for long. May I also add which has shocked me, is clasically a horse can work in an outline with NO CONTACT what so ever. How is she going to do a dressage test and give with the reins if the horse is relying upon them for a false outline. Not to forget the post was not to learn how to get the horse round :S
Click to expand...

A ''rounded up'' horse for me doesn't necessarily mean ''in an outline'', but one that is stepping under with its hind leg and lifting through the back and withers. And frankly, until the horse is able to this, it is fairly unlikely it will produce correct leg yield.
We can only comment on what we see, the OP is not obliged to take any notice of our comments, but I will still stand by what I say :)
 
martlin said:
A ''rounded up'' horse for me doesn't necessarily mean ''in an outline'', but one that is stepping under with its hind leg and lifting through the back and withers. And frankly, until the horse is able to this, it is fairly unlikely it will produce correct leg yield.
We can only comment on what we see, the OP is not obliged to take any notice of our comments, but I will still stand by what I say :)
Click to expand...

But youve just left a snotty comment rather than advising how to get the horse to use the hind legs more to do the leg yield. All you've done is remind me just then of the question she already is aware of and asking yet you didnt help or answer other than mention contact and sorry if she shortens her reins and wants the horse to lean then fine but i think she's got the correct contact
 
martlin said:
A ''rounded up'' horse for me doesn't necessarily mean ''in an outline'', but one that is stepping under with its hind leg and lifting through the back and withers. And frankly, until the horse is able to this, it is fairly unlikely it will produce correct leg yield.
We can only comment on what we see, the OP is not obliged to take any notice of our comments, but I will still stand by what I say :)
Click to expand...

Agree with this..you want I Imagine, her to work long and low, that's how it should be at this stage, this isn't about outline at all, has that been mentioned, I don't think I've read that. To encourage her to bring her head down a more consistent contact on the outside rein combined with a giving contact on the inside is the key. Not shortening the reins at all,Although you may find as she responds down to the contact you will need shorter reins, you may not, it's a skill of take and release and I hadn't seen that happening.
 
In Martlins defence, I do need to put my leg underneath me more :S so no need to start arguing on a post !!!

In fact, that comment is helpful, as this is another issue I struggle in fixing atm!!!
So any help on that also will be great.

I must admit, I don't usually, but I am very short and used to riding ponies and small horses. My arabian mare is 15hh and she is the perfect height for me as I can wrap my leg round and put it into the right position.

With my ex racer, she is 16hh and for some reason, I end up shortening my stirrups as I can't balance (Holds head in shame haha) so my stirrups are shorter on her than they are my 15hh mare. I think another problem is I can't do sitting trot to her as she is hollow and I bounce all over the place, so if I try yo take my stirrups away and do sitting trot, we end up all over the place. So any tips without taking my stirrups away yet would be great :p
 
leanne1985 said:
some comments are talking as if this rider should shorten her reins, demand a contact and 'round the horse' I think she has made it clear in the first description that the horse has not been reschooling for long and is asking for help now on bend so on so on, not rounding the horse. As far as I can see her leg is under her too so that's odd advice when she is using a nice light seat trot on a young horse that has not yet been in work for long. May I also add which has shocked me, is clasically a horse can work in an outline with NO CONTACT what so ever. How is she going to do a dressage test and give with the reins if the horse is relying upon them for a false outline. Not to forget the post was not to learn how to get the horse round :S
Click to expand...


The Op was asking for advice on where to go with this horse, draw reins were mentioned although she was not planning on using them, until the horse is accepting the leg and taking some contact on a long not loose rein I cannot see how she will establish a good foundation. It needs to slow a little to enable it to carry itself in balance even if it is ridden without a contact this will enable the hind leg to step under more easily either forward or if desired in leg yield.
The reins do not hold a horse up but a correct allowing contact will give confidence and support which most will need at times in their training.
 
P.s I do keep contact same with outside and give and take on inside just very subtle as the mare over reacts if I where to do it so obviously
 
leanne1985 said:
But youve just left a snotty comment rather than advising how to get the horse to use the hind legs more to do the leg yield. All you've done is remind me just then of the question she already is aware of and asking yet you didnt help or answer other than mention contact and sorry if she shortens her reins and wants the horse to lean then fine but i think she's got the correct contact
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Not at all, I have advised the OP to change her position in the saddle, I don't consider it snotty at all :) I also have not mentioned shortening reins at all, just more consistent contact, which does involve a decision from the OP to either shorten the reins or relax the length further - I wouldn't be prepared to recommend either without actually seeing the horse in real life.
 
What a Lovely horse. Can't add much more to the 'don't use draw reins' comments, or 'contact' comments (i.e consistent). I would maybe lunge quietly once or twice a week for short spells only, with loose fitting side reins - but correct ridden work will always be of the most benefit.

Slight spanner in the works - but are you absolutely sure the horse is sound?
 
imogen345 said:
In Martlins defence, I do need to put my leg underneath me more :S so no need to start arguing on a post !!!

In fact, that comment is helpful, as this is another issue I struggle in fixing atm!!!
So any help on that also will be great.

I must admit, I don't usually, but I am very short and used to riding ponies and small horses. My arabian mare is 15hh and she is the perfect height for me as I can wrap my leg round and put it into the right position.

With my ex racer, she is 16hh and for some reason, I end up shortening my stirrups as I can't balance (Holds head in shame haha) so my stirrups are shorter on her than they are my 15hh mare. I think another problem is I can't do sitting trot to her as she is hollow and I bounce all over the place, so if I try yo take my stirrups away and do sitting trot, we end up all over the place. So any tips without taking my stirrups away yet would be great :p
Click to expand...

Right, I would not worry myself with sitting trot at all at this stage - everything in rising and as little getting into her back as poss :)
For your leg, I know you say it is difficult for you to balance when you ride longer, but try do lengthen your stirrups just a notch and think of a) pointing your knee to the ground and b) imagine you are reaching the hind hoof with your heel. Those are two visualisations that seem to help some of my pupils with that particular issue.
And, as strange as it sounds, try to relax your bum :eek:
 
Good luck! With mine I just started schooling slowly and built up bit by bit. Hillwork out hacking is good if you have any? Otherwise yes echo the use of drawreins, i've never needed to use them on my horse and trust me I am from far a brilliant rider! They are just a shortcut IMO, I only know people who use them to have more control for sharp horses out hacking, not really for retraining. None of ours have ever needed them anyway. :)
 
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