Video of a proper dressage horse and rider.

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I saw a video of Adelinde Cornelissen and her horse Parzival on Horse Hero the other day and for the first time in a long while, I actually thought 'Wow'. What a classic old fashioned dressage horse, not cranked in, not beefed up like a body builder, nothing naturally flash, just a very talented horse well ridden by a very talented rider.
 
Adelinde trains with Sjef and Anky so the training methods would be of the more modern variety.
On the subject of saddles American rider Catherine Haddad uses a very similiar type of saddle to Klimke so not all todays GP riders favour huge thigh blocks.
 
I'm with Halfstep here - I don't think you can tar all modern dressage horses - personally I thought the Totilas test (when I got round to watching it from home) was hugely over-rated and the trot work looked like a circus elephant doing tricks - I too hate the exaggerated front movement these day

Have to agree with Halfstep thuogh - his piaffe was breathtaking - didn't think the music fitted either
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As for electric atmosphere's and being led in - all horses are different in rection - some cope with noise better than others, yes it would be dropped down in a showing class for misbehaving in the ring, but it's not competing in showing, it's results are for the movements in the arena. Agree re the halting though (and totilas' halt, although still, wasn't what you'd call square
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What I find interesting, or disappointing perhaps, is that the horses who are light, relaxed, and expressive but still correct, don't get the marks that the bigger moving, more manufactured-looking horses get. Why? Surely dressage should be about harmony and not a big flashy, freaky looking front end movement? Why do the judges place this above the horses who are correct but maybe less flashy? They are marking to FEI standards so at what point did the FEI say that the sort of movement Totilas has (in terms of extensions that are so huge the back end can never catch up) is more desirable than a less flashy but more correct horse?

I'm not trying to start an argument here but genuinely interested as to at what point they decided to place this horse above others who are possibly more correct? I'd love to understand the rationale behind it?
 
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Chestnut Cob - I'm with you totally on that, was discussing it with OH the other day
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I just don't understand it.

I would be really interested in seeing how that particular horse was trained to exhibit that sort of movement in the first place. It looks like the Monty Python School of Silly Walks for horses, and I know how much my back would end up hurting if I walked around like John Cleese all day long...
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I'm not going to argue about his piaffe and the rest but I really can't understand rewarding that sort of front end movement.

As I said, I would be grateful if anyone could explain it to me?
 
I'm sure I saw Totilas' score sheet online and the judges did use a range of marks, but I can't remember what he got for the extended trots and now I really want to know lol.
 
I think that, completely off the dressage thingy really as I'm completely useless at it and in no position to critisize, some horses do react differently to hyped up atmospheres. Some horses cope, and others really can't and the rider can try and try but often this cannot be 'riden through' or schooled into. If they don't like it, then they don't like it...
 
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It looks like the Monty Python School of Silly Walks for horses, and I know how much my back would end up hurting if I walked around like John Cleese all day long...
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I saw a video of Adelinde Cornelissen and her horse Parzival on Horse Hero the other day and for the first time in a long while, I actually thought 'Wow'. What a classic old fashioned dressage horse, not cranked in, not beefed up like a body builder, nothing naturally flash, just a very talented horse well ridden by a very talented rider.

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I watched them warm up at Hickstead not realising who they were. I spent most of it totally captivated in draw dropping amazement, Parzival is truley athletic front and back and quite a handful to ride, Adelinde managed him beatifully but was like a pea on top of him (hi is HUGE!).

Tortilas was also lovely but yes a bit too much in front to be perfect for me. I would have taken Parzival home if I could have stood a chance of riding one side of him!!
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But then those outstanding horses of that period - Ahlerich, Martzog, a little later Rembrant - were heralded as examples of the new "lightness" in dressage. (Which was arguably a return to lightness if you want to go back to the success of riders like, say, St. Cyr.
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Alas, too, I am old enough to actually remember a lot of dressage from that period and it was a very mixed bag indeed. I don't think you can argue Klimke - an outstanding horseman and, I believe, still the only rider in the modern age to get Olympic medals in two disciplines - was representative.
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I do see what people are saying and to some extent I agree, in that I'm not a fan of horses that "trot like a World Champion" (this is not a compliment) but I think the general consensus is that there are now more people who ride well, over all, than there used to be. Hard to say if that makes things "better" but it probably doesn't make things worse.

Also, the wheel goes around. Just a few years back everyone was over the moon about Matine (and her swishing tail . . . but that's another thread
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) who won a lot, including doing well in Young Horse classes. So if the standards now are wrong, and she won, but she was amazing . . . you see the problem. Ravel, the current World Champion is not particularly freaky, nor was Brentina, a recent past one. (Ravel is - or at least was - pistol hot though, and inclined to get very tense a few years ago . . . as was Marzog by all accounts.)

Btw, I'm not a huge fan of Modern Competitive dressage but it's been a long, long time since it diverged from the Classical school, certainly more than 20 years. What's more, I'm not that much of a fan of some of the more bizarre goals of classical dressage (cantering backwards, anyone?) and, ironically enough, the most "Baucherist" practitioner in the modern group is . . . Anky.

All that said, that's a remarkable display from Klimke and his horse. He was a fantastic, fantastic horseman. As were people like Bolt and Neckerman (who also produced a daughter and granddaughter who went to the Olympics - for Canada, incidentally - so that must be a record in itself
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I think that Dr Reiner Klimke on Ahlerich where the best ever parnership in dressage much more than Ulla and Rusty. and i still belive it Ahlerich in my eyes is the perfect model of a dressage horse i.e poll at highest point. we where given a brilliant performance by Edward Gal at hicksted this year not dout with him and totilas breaking the world record but as you will see horses have changed so much in the years. but yet who are we to say if it is wrong or right.

horse went lame and had injuries back then as they do now in the sport, yes more muscle hast developed the gaits and elervation but if your horse is happy in what he/she is doing in her work what does it matter if they are the make of Ahlerich or Totilas its all everlution in the sport for the good or the better it is happering.

but i do know one thing if Ahlerich was a stallion I would be buying his bloodlies all day long.

TheDressageRider
 
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Totilas might not be to your taste, but his piaffe is far better than Aherlich's was (sorry) as are his canter pirouettes.

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Better or more correct? Brilliance is one thing but not at the expense of the horse being correct, surely? Correct is just correct but "better" is subjective and personal...

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Totilas piaffe is technically almost perfect and much more correct than Ali's ever was. He has one of the best piaffes I've ever seen with the exception of Aktion's who had a perfect piaffe most of the time.
 
QR - and slightly on a tangent, but re. prize givings, we don't slate Shutterfly for not being able to tolerate prize givings do we? At least Anky actually rode her medal-winning horse in Beijing!
 
My personal opinion is that I think breeding has moved forwards, but today dressage is about having horses so wired up that they take off in the prize giving, Anky fell off in Sweden at a show in Flyinge, and bolted out of the Olympics - and yet we are to say that she has helped to evolved dressage?? - the horses are out of their minds. Sad to say it, but I would love to see the 'old' dressage riders on our 'new' dressage horses.

Dressage has moved away from harmony, its sad to see stressed horses, that the sweat is dripping and they are so unhappy in their eyes. I love dressage, but to me dressage shouldnt be tightly drawn pullback nosebands, roll kurs, and bullying. Dressage should be a dance between horse and rider.

I will never do well in dressage as I don't want my horse looking as if its about to explode, hence why I have given up on the dressage - I can ride my horses how I want in show jumping and still win, I don't have to put up with these 'fashion judges' dictating that we should all ride like Anky and have horses that are on the verge of jumping out of their skin just because it looks flashy.

No, dressage to me is dead. Call it anything but dressage.

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AnnaG, i agree for the most part, but i see some riders at top level who do not ride like that. Matine's famous freestyle test was flowing and soft, she was dancing, not on the ragged edge of control. the crowd loved it, unfortunately the judges chose to put Anky top.
tigers_eye, i can see what you mean, but i disagree - dressage is supposed to be about control and harmony and partnership, and to have a gold-winning horse that can't be ridden safely at the prize-giving shocks me to the core. i think a showjumper can be excused, because the requirements of the sport are so different.
 
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AnnaG, i agree for the most part, but i see some riders at top level who do not ride like that. Matine's famous freestyle test was flowing and soft, she was dancing, not on the ragged edge of control. the crowd loved it, unfortunately the judges chose to put Anky top.
tigers_eye, i can see what you mean, but i disagree - dressage is supposed to be about control and harmony and partnership, and to have a gold-winning horse that can't be ridden safely at the prize-giving shocks me to the core. i think a showjumper can be excused, because the requirements of the sport are so different.

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You are absolutely right, not all the riders ride like it and yes Matinee was a joy to watch - but as you said, the judges put Anky first.. The people who ride with calmness and harmony arent winning..
 
I disagree about Matine. She was always on the edge, always working on (or over?) her natural ability. She was spectacular but very, very tense. Totilas never looks like that. Matine's piaffe and passage were always manufactured through tension. Totilas' come through relaxation in his body.
 
what a joy to see Dr Klimke riding Ali again. Good dressage should be the showing off a partnership between horse and rider, where the horse appears to do all the movements with ease, freedom and obvious happiness, with apparently little intervention by the rider. This is what Dr Klimke shows to perfection. My concern about many of the current riders especially on the big warmbloods is that they need to be so obvious in the aids that they use to get the results from their horses. It is a shame to see such obvious half halts, big movements from the rider to execute tempi changes and as many have already said, horses that appear to goose step in their extensions, have their noses behind the vertical and their poll definitely not the highest point. I was very fortunate to see Dr Klimke at a seminar he taught at in Solihull with my mother Mrs Jean Jones, herself a well known instructor and trainer. Dr Klimke required his pupils at teh seminar to think, to place themselves and their horses in the best position to carry out the moves required, and many were unable to do so. It may interest readers to know that i have recently seen a western rider and trainer JOsh Lyons, here in Canada. He not only trains western horses for pleasure riding and rodeo, but has also helped a number of Dressage and Show Jumping Riders in the US. His 7 year old horse trained purely for Western riding, completed tempi changes with the grace and aplomb of a veteran. This horse was always correct, always made the change behind first, never became disunited, never got upset, and did not require more than the most minimal amount of aid from Josh. A real picture. Josh then took his Rodeo Roping horse who had never done anything that could be considered dressage and showed how to put the horse in the best position to be able to execute both Renvers and Travers, in just 10 mins. Josh, like Dr Klimke, ensures that the rider is always working for the best result from the horse, that allows the horse to stay relaxed, engaged and working in harmony with the rider to create a picture and a pleasurable ride. More riders should consider how to be in harmony! BTW - have you seen how so many dressage riders turn their hands flat withteh palms towards the ground, a sure sign that they are blocking at their elbows and shoulders, which translates into their horses blocking at the shoulder and elbow, hence the goose stepping. Hate me all you want, this is all IMHO! That was my rant!
Interesting to take a poll on who agrees that we do not see the same grace and ease these days in most cases that Dr Klimke shows with Ahlerich?
 
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You are absolutely right, not all the riders ride like it and yes Matinee was a joy to watch - but as you said, the judges put Anky first.. The people who ride with calmness and harmony arent winning..

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<font color="blue"> And that's the problem ... judges ... although there are stirrings in the right direction, until those with s*** in their eyes actually mark what's in front of them, the change will be a long way off.
Thankfully some judges are beginning to speak out, more power to them! especially in the 'fitting' of crank nosebands.
Here's hoping we soon see the end of the yank, crank and spank brigade!
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haha, i've seen it, my trainer told me about it. beautiful. awe-inspiring. how relaxed and happy is that horse in his work, truly the epitome of the "happy athlete" we're all supposed to strive for.


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AHHH!!! OMG!! I SO rarely disagree with anything you say Kerilli!! And I am sure I am going to be controversial here..............!!

I CANNOT SEE how anyone can call Klimke's horse RELAXED!! (in the full test clip) The clue is in the TAIL - which is swishing all the way through - and very stiff and rigid.

Sure - it is a magnificent display of training and discipline on the part of both horse and rider - I do not dispute that. Maybe that is all that dressage is about!!!

IMHO the horse does not look happy or relaxed - at the end he just looks relieved that it is all over - until the next time.

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Well, some horses do swish their tail because they like swishing their tail, because they're a bit excited or because there's a fly on their bum. That in itself doesn't necessarily indicate tension. But a quiet, relaxed mouth and jaw that is in no way constrained by straps, cranks or gadgets does indicate complete relaxation, obedience and harmony.

When I watch Anky in a Kur, I see a horse that's horribly overbent, full of tension and somewhat robotic and jerky in its movement. Beautiful horse with fantastic breeding, but the word dressage has nothing to do with breeding, it means training, and that's what they should be marking for.
 
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