Bexx
Well-Known Member
Just adding, a old YO i knew tried this with a liveries horse. She totally ruined him, wont even step over a pole on the ground now, so its a deffo don't try this at home!
Video posted by HHO...thoughts?
- Thread starter vallin
- Start date
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Do you know how/why it went wrong? Would be interesting to know as it's always cheaper to learn from other people's mistakes!
I've seen people permanently screw up horses longeing/free jumping, usually by getting their timing wrong and/or not having proper speed control. Agreed, ideally it's something you need to learn by study/tuition not just random attempts. Not all mistakes are fixable
Cheiro1
Well-Known Member
What a fab video! Lovely to see him letting his horse find it's own way without having to balance a rider too 
Wouldn't want to try it myself though, too much risk of doing the wrong thing!
Wouldn't want to try it myself though, too much risk of doing the wrong thing!
ElleJS
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine who is a prominent Irish event rider/breeder sends all their youngsters to a man he knows who is superb at this type of work. They go at a certain stage of their education ie broken and starting to pop small fences, he will work with them over a variety of obstacles across the country - invaluable for their balance, coordination and self-belief
The guy who is backs my youngsters here in UK does this. Not as XC course per se but logs and small ditches around his farm. He is fantastic. All the young horses I have sent to him come back straight, careful, brave and easy even though they have all sorts of temperaments ranging from laid back to super duper sharp. Worth their weight in gold horsemen like these. I would never do this stage of backing myself as it is an old craft and not something to be copied.
Crugeran Celt
Well-Known Member
Bexx
Well-Known Member
I think the general jist of it was, horse was not 100% to lunge anyway, YO thought eff this i'll just try it, turned the horse too tight on approach so it didn't actually see the ditch she was aiming him at. he was honest and tried to jump it but stumbled a little, so was understandably cautious next time round. Again, rubbish approach, horse stops, gets lunge line thrown at it so rears, then gets yanked in the mouth (she was lunging off a bridle) then a half full can of coke thrown at it. Safe to say I didn't stick around for too long after that. I think what is seen on the video is very good, however, it can go wrong if the person doesn't know what they are doing
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Well that wasn't best practice!
I think the problem with stuff like this is it looks very easy done well but can go quickly wrong, especially if the preparation is poor or the trainer gets frustrated. Oddly, trying to make it all too smooth and 'nice' can also cause problems - experienced people are quick and firm in their corrections so there is much less chance of getting into trouble.
I have an amazing sequence of photos of Tom Dorrance, as quite an old man, getting a horse on a long line to stand for mounting next to a porch, all without leaving his deck chair! Makes anything the rest of us accomplish look like amateur hour.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
It's interesting you should say that TS, I have a patient pony who has been very good at putting up with the 'oh let's try this approach
' I stopped lungeing him over poles/jumps at home in the field due to lack of speed control (it all gets a bit exciting on the approach ) and I wasn't happy that he wouldn't have an accident. We now have a school and have taken him right back to basics (trot poles, def none lifted and may quite possibly never make it to an actual jump ) to see if we can resolve (he won't ever be competitively jumping again anyway) which has been interesting- from the point that if I move at all from my position it becomes an exciting race. If I ensure I have a lunge line loop that I can let go while he takes himself over the line we manage not to jump the trot poles . Interesting to watch the vid oldie48
Well-Known Member
I loved the video, saw a very happy horse having fun. Could i do it? NO. Wish I could though.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
Ditto.
amage
Well-Known Member
Hmm I honestly didn't know there was another route to introducing youngsters to these fences. It's certainly absolutely nothing to do with that parelli rubbish just basic common sense. Take away the rider and allow the horse to figure things out without the excess weight to balance. Only way I've ever seen ditches, drops, banks etc introduced here.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
It seems like common sense to me, too, but then I am relatively new to horses and come from training other species. The bottom line is "no compulsion". The horse in the video is obviously enjoying the exercise. Also, I hate ropes and bits of string. I always seem to get entangled and the thought of being snared with half a tonne of relatively uncontrolled and possibly panicking horse flesh on the other end makes me feel quite faint!
We tried it here on a very modest scale starting with a rail on the ground across a gateway, the ponies completely loose and free, and some hard feed on the other side.Then gradually raised the stakes a bit every day. Once they become confident, they love jumping. Several of ours pull towards the jumps when being lunged, then clears them by a wide margin if permitted to jump. But these are food orientated Highlands and it might not work for others.
Unfortunately, three broken gates later, I have discovered that horses are not great at estimating scale! Still, I'd rather have to mend gates than see a horse hating to jump. No one has jumped out of the field yet.
We tried it here on a very modest scale starting with a rail on the ground across a gateway, the ponies completely loose and free, and some hard feed on the other side.Then gradually raised the stakes a bit every day. Once they become confident, they love jumping. Several of ours pull towards the jumps when being lunged, then clears them by a wide margin if permitted to jump. But these are food orientated Highlands and it might not work for others.
Unfortunately, three broken gates later, I have discovered that horses are not great at estimating scale! Still, I'd rather have to mend gates than see a horse hating to jump. No one has jumped out of the field yet.
Sol
Well-Known Member
I don't get why it's a 'don't try this at home' type thing. Ok, the horse is jumping some reasonable sized fences here, but then, do most people have a great XC course in their field? I doubt it! (I do wish I did though!)
I did a bit of this sort of thing with Dan, without even thinking about it. He didn't like ditches, the yard had a small XC course through the fields, his field had the ditches - very handy. We used to walk up to them, over them, then trot over them, he'd go over them without me etc. until he'd do it loose. We did the same with the water, the steps into/out of the water & the small up rights up to about 2'6/2'9. We didn't just run out onto a crazy XC course with a big rope & start charging around & I'm sure nobody would suggest that even with the best horse.
I think it's a great idea, & potentially great for young/green/spooky horses. Sure, you'd want to establish jumping in an arena & basics out in open spaces etc first, but otherwise, what's bad about it?
I did a bit of this sort of thing with Dan, without even thinking about it. He didn't like ditches, the yard had a small XC course through the fields, his field had the ditches - very handy. We used to walk up to them, over them, then trot over them, he'd go over them without me etc. until he'd do it loose. We did the same with the water, the steps into/out of the water & the small up rights up to about 2'6/2'9. We didn't just run out onto a crazy XC course with a big rope & start charging around & I'm sure nobody would suggest that even with the best horse.
I think it's a great idea, & potentially great for young/green/spooky horses. Sure, you'd want to establish jumping in an arena & basics out in open spaces etc first, but otherwise, what's bad about it?
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
I don't get why it's a 'don't try this at home' type thing. Ok, the horse is jumping some reasonable sized fences here, but then, do most people have a great XC course in their field? I doubt it! (I do wish I did though!)
I did a bit of this sort of thing with Dan, without even thinking about it. He didn't like ditches, the yard had a small XC course through the fields, his field had the ditches - very handy. We used to walk up to them, over them, then trot over them, he'd go over them without me etc. until he'd do it loose. We did the same with the water, the steps into/out of the water & the small up rights up to about 2'6/2'9. We didn't just run out onto a crazy XC course with a big rope & start charging around & I'm sure nobody would suggest that even with the best horse.
I think it's a great idea, & potentially great for young/green/spooky horses. Sure, you'd want to establish jumping in an arena & basics out in open spaces etc first, but otherwise, what's bad about it?
Because with a less experienced person there is massive potential for this to go very wrong. Stand too close and the horse might decide to buck and kick, and take your head off; Or he decided to put his head down and go and visit his mates, taking you with him (note that the rope is attached to the side of the headcollar, where you have more control than if it is on the back); did you notice where the trainer had to put his hand up so the rope didn't go round his neck?; or you get the lead tangled/drop it and the horse gets free and bogs off across the field, pursued by a loose rope, which he thinks is a snake and panics; or he decides to dodge out at a fence and knocks you down; or you try for just a bit bigger fence and un-nerve him. Like lots of things, it looks easy when the experts do it! I am sure there are other people who could add to the "don't do this at home" ideas.
The trainer and the horse look in complete harmony. The trainer is in charge, he knows what he is doing and he is watching what the horse is doing. He also has complete control of his lead rope at all times.
I would do this at home, in an enclosed space, with a hat and gloves on and with a horse I knew wouldn't panic if the rope was dropped and I would concentrate VERY hard NOT to drop the rope and finish while things were going well.
Dowjones
Well-Known Member
Personally I don't see it as a big deal type thing either. And certainly not Parelli! Its common sense to me when when training youngster's, or green horses. I've been doing this with any youngster I've had since I was a teen. My current trainer does it with his youngsters too so its not too uncommon, maybe because I'm in Ireland?
I would agree that reading the horses body language and timing is critical, but it is a great way of working with the horse or addressing problems.
I would agree that reading the horses body language and timing is critical, but it is a great way of working with the horse or addressing problems.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
But all those things could happen if you were just lungeing too? I'm obviously too used to only having a field to lunge in!
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
I have an open field with two cattle grids at either end of the drive, so I am well aware of the dangers of a horse getting loose!
Plus over the years I must have heard about every sort of calamity there can be with lunging horses. I daresay most people who break and school horses have too, although sometimes you wonder!
But some people don't see all the dangers and just plough on regardless, and get into trouble.
Plus over the years I must have heard about every sort of calamity there can be with lunging horses. I daresay most people who break and school horses have too, although sometimes you wonder!
But some people don't see all the dangers and just plough on regardless, and get into trouble.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
"You CANNOT BE SERIOUS! That is just TOO high!"
But later
But later
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Did you find that sort of training had only positive repercussions for their jumping under saddle? Did the skill seem transferable to other jumping situations such as XC?
One of the reasons I cringe when I see people "loose schooling" by just letting horses fly at the jumps with no speed control and no placing fences etc is because it often ends up with the horse launching and flinging itself over, which causes difficulties with the sort of control and reasoning necessary for jumping at higher levels of competition. One of the "complaints" people have mentioned about the video is the horse is going so slowly but that it exactly what you want during the education process, for the horse to be really thinking about where it's putting its feet, looking ahead, and staying relaxed. This builds lasting confidence. Like any skill, it's much easier to teach it correctly and then speed it up.
I had a horse that was a determined fence jumper. He had the inclination anyway but what cemented it was living on a farm with panel jumps in the fencelines. He was a natural XC horse and he pretty quickly assumed that the panels weren't barriers, they were gateways. It was maddening. Even after he moved, he would jump out only in areas where he could see the question and the landing clearly, usually the gate, even if it was higher than the fence. He effectively educated himself by jumping progressively more difficult questions. (His most spectacular feat was jumping out the window of an indoor school.) I agree it's rare but I've certainly seen many horses jump out of schools free jumping, which is why I would never do it without a purpose built area or an indoor. I've also seen more than one horse jump through a mirror and know two that ended their careers that way. I know most horses aren't that motivated but part of training responsibly is thinking what the negative repercussions of the learned behaviour might be.
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TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Those are the most obvious physical risks but there are also training concerns that need to be considered, especially if the goal is upper level completion as with the horse in the video. It's very easy for people to start to chase a horse loose or on the longe and interfere with it's timing and speed control. The most common glitch is that there is often a moment a stride or two out when a green horse hesitates for a second, sizing up the problem and rebalancing - a sort of natural half halt. But people often think the horse is going to refuse at that moment and cluck/chase/pop the whip or rope at that critical second, breaking the horse's concentration and causing it to stop or have the rail or rush the next time. It's not a big deal initially but can become a habit. I saw a horse go from jumping confidently down a grid to stopping repeatedly and, it turned out, permanently, just because someone on the ground got too aggressive with him. This doesn't preclude experimentation but it does need care and it also needs the sense to recognise when the horse is not benefiting from the experience. Like everything else, I guess.
Learning through "doing stuff" is an essential part of becoming a good horseman but it's much quicker and less risky to do it initially with experienced support or at least a careful, sensible approach. I think all that people are saying is setting off to an XC course with a horse on a long line and a halter is probably not the first step in the process. Most people are sensible enough to see that but it never hurts to say it, just in case.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
It is too early to tell what the long term effects will be but the ponies were grazed in a three acre paddock then encouraged to jump into the smaller paddock (1/10 acres?) for feed as you can see in the first picture. Then they were left to it. They would voluntarily pop the rail at odd times during the day, as the thought occurred to them, to check whether there were any crumbs left, so they got quite confident.
One day I was working on installing a new water trough and my helper was grooming a youngster. We were both watching a 2yo when, from a standing start, she jumped a rail in a stock fence for no apparent reason but to get to the other side! It was quite spectacular! None of them ever attempted to jump an electric fence or a wire fence which I think presents more of a psychological barrier (the electric fences are powered by a mains energiser, so quite vicious).
I am very interested in how horses' minds work. With the above, my thinking is just to open the animal's mind to what is possible. I firmly believe that can best be done with encouragement and presenting the opportunities. Would it be better to let a young horse experiment on it's own with natural jumps or rear it in a flat field with no obstacle bigger than a mole hill?
To illustrate my point, one yearling hit the rail with his foot when it was about 150mm high. It must have hurt as for some time he was clearly convinced he could't step over it! Strange but true. On the other hand, a friend of mine, a successful show jumper, would take his horse out every morning and put it over a series of 1200mm jumps. It seemed strange to me that he never asked the horse to negotiate anything higher. The explanation was that the horse would get so confident that when asked, it would fly a taller fence without thinking about it. It seemed to work for him but I'd be interested to hear opinions.
I take your point. One pony was running up the field with the rest, as youngsters will do, but did not stop at the gate but landed on top of it. All my gates are wooden and apart from some carpentry, no harm was done. A second did much the same, funnily the guy who was earlier convinced he couldn't jump six inches! Harmful? Maybe but that's how we all learn, ponies included. I've had others run into fences and hit posts, but it is not really practical to rear them in a totally safe environment. Children used to learn by scraping their knees and falling out of trees and I am not sure they benefit from the super-safe environment the nanny state insists they have today.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I think those are two different questions, though.
I am actually very much against horses being raised on postage stamps, especially since all my early experience was with horses that lived in conditions I suspect many people would think were "unsafe" but they came out of it surefooted and hardy. Having worked a lot for big breeders with many young horses and large acreages, I have seen first hand the difference in development vs young horses raised in very managed systems with mostly older company and constant human management. As discussed on here before, not everyone agrees and I realise there are limitations in the modern world, but I haven't seen a reason to change my ideas, at least in theory. I think the lessons learned through play and through navigating rough terrain stand horses in excellent stead in their working lives.
Sport producers fill in some of this with more directed effort, even with very young horses. I don't think this is necessarily ideal but I can see the reasoning, even though if you even mentioned you'd free jumped a yearling on an internet forum you'd probably be lynched.
That said, we will raise them to live in the world of humans and it's probably useful they start skill building earlier rather than later. It just needs to be balanced against the skills they need to learn to be healthy, strong horses, too. I would even agree with experimentation - better that horses hit rails at home and learn from it! BUT they also have to have the direction to answer the question the right way, not by speeding up or flinging themselves at the jump because these habits, which might be survivable with small fences, can and likely will cause problems later. There is also the problem that if this sort of thing happens while the horse is being ridden, you set up a conflict between the rider's direction and the horse's instincts. (Leaving out the risk of an accident.) If the horse hits a fence, panics and runs, then they are in conflict with the rider, who then has to argue with the horse, setting up a worse scenario. There are lots of ways for a riderless horse to clear a small, simple, straightforward fence that are not desirable - or safe - methods of jumping courses, combinations etc. with a rider. One of the known dangers of loose jumping is creating a horse that is effectively unridable to a fence because it cannot cope with any sort of direction. You see lots of sales tapes with horses jumping big jumps with a rider on but they are virtually free jumping - it's essentially a trick. Set the same jump up at a random place in the arena and the picture won't look so impressive. Jumping big jumps is useful but it's only part of the equation and getting that done at the expense of other skills isn't productive in the long term.
The other issue, especially with modern jumping horses, is many are bred to be "allergic to wood". These horses would rather stop than have a rail (not great eventer material, granted) and if they get in trouble too often or too seriously, they will pack it in. At the other end of the spectrum, horses that aren't naturally careful, can learn that hitting or even breaking rails is not such a big deal, even if it's isn't that comfortable. This is a particularly dangerous lesson for xc horses - the last thing you want is a horse that thinks he can plough his way through if he gets it wrong. It also renders the horse pretty useless as a showjumper, which might be ethically "okay" but isn't practically good for the horse. The main issue with completely self-directed learning is you can't always be sure the horse is learning the right things.
I am a big fan of "letting horses learn" and that it pretty much the basis of most xc schooling - setting the horse up to answer the questions and make mistakes but in managed ways that aren't going to scare anyone or get them hurt. Confidence is such a precious thing, we are always, as trainers, walking that edge. Granted, this is less of an issue for horses that will always work well within their scope and not have to answer too many complicated questions. But we don't always ask them "natural" things so I'm not convinced that only "natural" learning will fit the bill. Yes, kids learn by falling down and getting back up. Mistakes are essential for learning. But we still teach them, formally and informally. Very few kids would learn to read or do math if all they did was climb trees.
As an aside, watching a really good jockey jump a young horse is amazing. I watched an older rider who had many Olympics and countless GPs under his belt start a 5 year old that hadn't jumped at all. He started over a pole and within literally minutes had it cantering a couple of 1m fences, no fuss, no muss. Now, obviously the horse was able and calm in himself, but to see how much that person taught him about "human" jumping in minutes was impressive. Huge gain at low cost. And yes, the horse did make mistakes but they were small and the rider was able to correct immediately. He didn't "nanny" the horse - 1m is hardly nothing! - he set him up for optimal learning. Was the horse a made jumper then? Of course not. He had many many other skills he had to learn. But his introduction to the task filled him with confidence, which is no bad thing.
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XxCoriexX
Well-Known Member
I really enjoyed the video! I think it is great that even the most professional riders go back to basics every now and then! it was great to see the horse learning to balance himself, especially without the aid of a rider! He did make it look very easy (although im sure it is anything but!) Obviously a small mortal such as myself will not be trying this for a while! Also looked like the horse was thoroughly enjoying itself......nice to see!
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
TS, we both agree about the confidence and that is all I am aiming for. Also, I think we are talking from opposite ends of the spectrum! I'm basically a breeder who aims to get them off the place, sensible and well reared, before they have started schooling for others to put the polish on for whatever discipline they want....and they are Highland ponies, not show jumpers or eventers! We've taken a couple on longer than intended because of the recession (which won't last forever, then prices will rise) and it's quite fun, but I think I'll leave the complicated stuff to people like you! I always enjoy reading your posts because I learn a lot, and that's what I'm here for. Hopefully, others are learning too and learning to think outside the box which does seem to be a problem with some traditionalists I've encountered.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
So is the thinking that the potential for it going wrong/it's harder to get it right with XC questions (although am imagining most would stick to trotting over ditches etc than say with jumping/grids in the school? Only as I have always presumed that most people do the latter but it would perhaps seem from what you say that plenty of people ****** it up with show jumps too. I'm just pondering. I suppose it is harder to drop things down a level XC like you can with a SJ to make the question easier.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Could not get the horse and hound link to work but loved the you tube ones .
Years ago I saw I yard that ditches dug in every gate way ( they covered them with those board things people digging hole in the road use when they need to drive through gateways ) the horses had to jump them to get water food and generally move around I thought that was a neat idea.
Years ago I saw I yard that ditches dug in every gate way ( they covered them with those board things people digging hole in the road use when they need to drive through gateways ) the horses had to jump them to get water food and generally move around I thought that was a neat idea.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to dis your methods! I think the more experiences young horses can have, the better. I was just entering into the discussion about the balance between letting horses learn "naturally" and directing their learning optimally.
Even though the handler in the video has only a halter and a long line, he has a LOT of control over that horse in both driving and restraint, and in balancing the horse within the two. Yes, he lets the horse learn, but he is very skilled in how he presents things, how many reps he does, where he stands etc etc. Even his rope is clearly a personal choice item, chosen no doubt for a specific reason. This sort of thing does have to be learned by doing, to some extent, but people do have to understand that there is something there to learn, and I think that's the concern being expressed about just going out and giving it shot with any horse in an open field. By the time you realise you're standing in the wrong place or letting the horse get too excited, you might be watching said horse disappear across the landscape!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Tbh, I don't think most people do enough of anything to do any real damage!
But if you get a sensitive horse or are unlucky or insensitive (see the story above about the YO losing their rag on a horse) then yes, you can certainly cause a problem. But that goes for anything! I think most horses find straightforward XC jumps easier to suss out than sj's and there is usually more space for them to think, so in that way working XC is probably preferable. But starting in a contained place with jumps that can be deconstructed and will fall down if the horse gets in trouble, while you learn your timing and control just seems sensible, no?
One of the things that is interesting about the video is what he does when it does go a bit wrong. He doesn't always just go back and repeat the same thing, he often adjusts and/or stops and restarts. Other times he does just let the horse come again and learn from the mistake. That is experience talking - he is very careful not to let the horse get running and overly adrenalised about the experience (even when the horse is playing a bit) because that is when real learning stops and accidents start. He also has a good eye and while he expects the horse to sort his own legs out, he doesn't put him in positions where this is impossible.
Re loose schooling, my comment was because of the number of times I see people build a single fence or a couple of fences on huge striding and then just let the horse belt over it, cutting in before and after, jumping off longer and longer spots, getting more and more wound up. That is not the lesson we want to teach a riding horse and not how you see it going with experienced producers. There are lots of ways to manage that inclination - "catch and release", purpose built chutes or pens, clicker training etc - and some of it is down to experimentation. I prepped a horse for a free jumping contest who just could not get the hang of catch and release, mostly because she was so laid back she had to keep moving to keep "up". So I organised a way to keep her free and moving in between passes down the chute. I've done others that need a treat every time they are caught as otherwise they get wound up they get impossible and start doing things like trying to jump out the sides. Courses for horses.
I'm not trying to over complicate - I think stuff along this line is very valuable and, in fact, more people should spend time watching their horses and thinking about what they are doing and why they are doing it. Outside of the box is where a lot of the fun stuff is. Especially if everyone stays sensible. But I don't agree with the common thought that it is "impossible" to mess a horse up when you're not sitting on it. It just needs a bit of thought!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Thanks, that's a great reply. Definitely about the not running and the not always repeating things (I hadn't noticed that myself) when the temptation can be to repeat until it is done correctly.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
To me the trainer looks very very skilled at what he is doing, the horse looks already trained in this type of work and that makes the whole thing appear deceptively easy. I agree with the people on this thread who say that this could go terribly wrong. The trainer has great control of the horse's speed and balance, even on small circles, on the approach to the jump, etc. He is always positioning himself in the right spot, where he can deal with problems without unbalancing the horse or affecting it when things are going well. Lovely horse as well, very well balanced!